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07/25/2002 03:20:11 PM · #26 |
Have there actually been any repeat offenders with this problem? Does it really significantly influence the vote?
I haven't been paying close enough attention to the first question. I would think, though, that most people who do this are first-time submitters who don't realize that it's not the norm, and quickly apologize when it's pointed out to them. I think usually about 1 or 2 photos are revealed in a week. I don't think it's a huge problem.
I'm not sure about the answer to the second question. And I think it would be really hard to determine. Obviously, if a new submitter says "my photo is xxxxx" he/she has no history with anyone and I can't imagine it would influence the vote much. But I can see how it could be different if JMSetzler or someone were to come out and say the same thing.
So. I think maybe you could design a policy for repeat offenders. I can't imagine that all that much harm could come from one time. If a person does it repeatedly, then maybe their photos should be disqualified. But I don't think that's happened yet, so I don't have any reason to believe that it would be a frequent occurrence.
I'm not sure that the forum for current photos would be all that good of an idea. It would mainly just encourage people to post about their current photos, which really could become a compromise in the integrity of the voting. And it would be awfully hard I think, even for the staunch anonymity supporters, to not look in that forum even if they professed to not want to know. It's just human nature.
I feel slightly strange taking the anal track here. But I've been working a few years now with (medical) clinical trials and some of the main things we look for are randomization and blinding to determine the quality of a study's results. So I think it probably makes some difference.
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07/25/2002 03:21:12 PM · #27 |
Karen, it's faux pas; you are just not having panache today when it comes to spelling, that's all ;)
I have already said that my preference would be to NOT have current voting discussed AT ALL, be it about your own submission or someone else's. It starts a bad trend: if you get several comments about "being confused about the subject matter", there might be a tendency to give yourself some air time and start posting clarifications.
Ditto on the courtesy of not posting your submission to another forum while voting is going on at dpc.
This week several current submissions have been discussed and sure it was great fun. However, I am wondering whether as a result some pictures from LAST week which might have been great discussion material have been overlooked in the forum discussions. Since the current voting pictures always have more immediacy over prior submissions, the focus, particularly after Mondays, would shift more and more to discussing the current voting ones and overlooking previous submissions if the anonimity rules would be relaxed.
Anonymity either is or it isn't, much like pregnancy: just as you can't be a little bit pregnant, you can't have submissions that are "somewhat" anonymous. |
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07/25/2002 03:31:18 PM · #28 |
I often do a weird shot. Something that I don't get to work with in my hum-drum industrial b.s. marketing gig.
Last week my shot was weird..intentionally. I had to live with not being able to coach people along on the little technical things that made the shot good for me.
Also, I have been at DP Challenge for nearly 5 months submitting, commenting ..stirring the pot
:-)..whatever. I HOPE (fingers crossed) that some of the other regulars here might suspect I can get most of my technical stuff pretty close to what I want..not always perfect..but close.
I don't want to influence their vote by letting them know I did a photo and then they slide their vote up even if its just from a 4 to a 6 if they thought some tech thing I did wasn't right. |
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07/25/2002 03:41:56 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by hokie:
Originally posted by Lisa:
[i]What if those who really wanted to discuss their live submissions voluntarily had their photo pulled from the rankings/contest for prize. I think it would be nice to be able to make the choice between eligibility for prize (like I have a chance at it anyway) or extra 'learning' from the challenge.
Lisa, you can already do that...Just start a thread and ask for comments on a photo you post on pbase or wherever :-)
What I fear in an open forum discussion of ongoing challenge topics? We start arguing what types of photos should ber getting scored better or whatever BEFORE someone votes.
If someone pulls their photo and we start to talk about the merits of that photo or the shortcomings in an open forum here on DP Challenge..how does that affect the attitude of people voting...
If I were to see someone say "I don't like photos that don't cleary show this or that" and maybe my own photo falls into that category...I might feel compelled to take issue with that post..Feeling he is unfairly influencing a vote or maybe bringing extra attention to photos beyond letting them stand on their own merit without any fan sections or whatever.:-)
Just a thought.
[/i]
You're right. I guess total anonymity is the way to go. |
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07/25/2002 03:52:08 PM · #30 |
Hey Lisa...In my greatest hearts desire I am with you 100%. I like everybody submitting and leaving everything open. You can probably go back into my "catalogue" of comments and find me saying something to that effect before :-)
But that is an entirely different kind of web site and I think already being done other places like photosig.com or another site like photocritique (dont have the url).
They are good ideas for sure..just different :-)
Just don't want to leave an impression that I didn't think your ideas were good or anything :-) |
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07/25/2002 03:58:58 PM · #31 |
Caution Lisa!!
I think HOKIE is moving in on Kermi!
<g>
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07/25/2002 04:06:13 PM · #32 |
heheh kee :-)
Actually, I am just trying to moderate my curmudgeony self. The freakin internet is so hard to pass along my natural warmth and charm... (yeah ..right!!) |
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07/25/2002 04:11:35 PM · #33 |
1/ I'm never going to win a prize or probably get in the top 10 so thats not really my motivation for being here. I do think that it may cause more problems than its worth in the long run. Suddenly the focus of the site changes, not necessarily for those who have been here for a while but maybe for any newbies to the site.
2/ submissions should remain anonymous until the end of the challenge. Like Swash and John, I always add a score and a name on my comments. If somebody is unsure about a comment I make then they are welcome to contact me. Just a suggestion, but maybe if the comments were not anonymous then this would not even be a discussion. I appreciate that this idea is an entirely different thread but maybe its the better of two evils.
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07/25/2002 04:12:40 PM · #34 |
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07/25/2002 04:14:37 PM · #35 |
I'm asking this question out of personal curiosity and not in any official capacity:
Is there anyone opposed to making comments non-anonymous? If so, why?
-Terry
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07/25/2002 04:16:17 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Yep, Look out Kermi!
WE ♥ KERMI!
-Terry
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07/25/2002 04:35:34 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by clubjuggle:
Is there anyone opposed to making comments non-anonymous? If so, why?
I supposed one reason is that if you don't have anonymous comments *some* photographers might contact people who posted questions or negative comments about their shot during the week - the potential is that by explaining the intention the voter might rescore the shot to a higher mark.
Since the comments eventually become open anyway I don't have a problem with them being non-anonymous from the start. (in my short experience here the comments that I get which are most usefull have already been signed by the commenter and I could already contact them)
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07/25/2002 04:36:19 PM · #38 |
I had to go see this "kermi" thread...
Lisa..that photo creeped me out!!! I LOVED it!! and thought it was a person in a bag too!
Now that I know its a stuffed toy you sleep with I feel even MORE creeped out... |
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07/25/2002 04:46:20 PM · #39 |
| I am opposed to discussions of current challenge submissions in the forums. It doesn't seem to do anything but cause problems in the long run. We don't need anyone campaigning for their current photos or trying to explain the photos to help settle any doubts or to influence other's opinions. I am saying this as someone who got burned by trying to convince everyone in the forums that my picture was not rigged. All it seemed to cause was ill feelings and probably a worse score than it would have gotten if I hadn't voiced my opinion. On the flip side, I don't think it is a good idea to discuss someone else's submission while the contest is going on. It may start out as positive discussions but sooner or later somebody is going to drag some poor person's work through the mud and again cause ill feelings. |
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07/25/2002 04:48:28 PM · #40 |
I think posts on current pictures tend to distract the viewers and detract from all the other photos by focusing discussion on those few. I tend to vote later in the week, and having read about a photo first introduces an unavoidable bias. That''s not always a bad thing, but it''s unfair to all those photos not mentioned. I especially don''t like it when such a discussion "creeps" into an unrelated (and other-titled) forum.
I''d be OK with choice #3 (dedicated forum) which I can avoid (if I "have" to peek, then that''s my problem). I''d rather read about the photos after the challenge when they can ALL be discussed. That would seem to be the natural progression: Take photos, vote on photos, discuss photos...
I''m also in FAVOR of a short photographer''s statement appearing with the photo, since about half the comments I get mention something I said myself.
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/25/2002 4:51:10 PM. |
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07/25/2002 04:48:37 PM · #41 |
we also now have the admin note feature if a comment needs to be made that a photo was NOT rigged.
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/25/2002 4:48:18 PM. |
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07/25/2002 05:17:34 PM · #42 |
After reading all of this, I firmly believe the site should remain status quo, so no one gets unnecessarily insulted, or boosted up for that matter. There should be a certain "code of honor", I guess, so that the discussions can happen after the challenge is over. (Originally posted by Journey:Karen, it''s faux pas; you are just not having panache today when it comes to spelling, that''s all ;) Thanks, Journey! LOL!). It''s what sets this site apart.
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/25/2002 5:18:03 PM.
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07/25/2002 05:24:56 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Karen Bryan:
After reading all of this, I firmly believe the site should remain status quo, so no one gets unnecessarily insulted, or boosted up for that matter. There should be a certain "code of honor", I guess, so that the discussions can happen after the challenge is over. (Originally posted by Journey:[i]Karen, it''s faux pas; you are just not having panache today when it comes to spelling, that''s all ;) Thanks, Journey! LOL!). It''s what sets this site apart.
[/i]
In other words, just say that discussion during the challenge is "frowned upon" but not illegal, and impose no penalties for such discussion?
-Terry
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07/25/2002 05:32:05 PM · #44 |
I think peer pressure works. If posts like that are generally ignored, they may go away.
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07/25/2002 07:39:11 PM · #45 |
I agree, submissions should remain anonymous until the end of the challenge.
Once the cat was out of the bag, (Kermie) You might as well have some fun with it. - I'll tell you I would feel pretty bad if because of the open discussion on Kermie, that entry shot up to one of the top photos. Once the specifics of the photo are discussed, it causes everyone to take a 2nd look. - At that point, the photo should be "disqualified" from the top 3 places - (I really didn't think Kermie was headed for the #1 spot this week)-True, Chicks dig him, But there were just a couple of photos that will probably do better. (and I think Lisa knew that before she opened it up in the forum). |
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07/25/2002 07:45:42 PM · #46 |
I also believe that discussing a current challenge photo in the forums could go either way for the photographer. It could improve or reduce his score, or it could have no effect.
I just think it's a bad idea to discuss these photos. If everyone discusses a photo and agree that they don't like it, I think it could sway other voters to vote low on the photo as well.
When the challenge is over, you can go back to the results page and post comments on the photo, or you can discuss it in the forums at that point... |
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07/25/2002 07:53:52 PM · #47 |
2 cents
In general, Photo's should not be discussed in the forums during the voting. It should be totally up to the image to communicate the challenge requirements to the audience. - But if the photographer chooses to disclose themselves and open their shot up in the forum, They should be disabled from "winning" or perhaps lock the votes for that photo at the time of the discussion. - The goal obviously would be to give the artist some help and/or encouragement. (without hindering the rest of the challenge submissions. |
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07/25/2002 08:01:34 PM · #48 |
| You know, in the last two days we have had so many 2 cents comments in this and the related thread that we must have easily argued up a dollar. Is that how D&L are going to finance the prizes??? |
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07/25/2002 08:09:44 PM · #49 |
OMG! I think Kermi's going to score the first perfect 10 on DPC! He's at 9.853 now and it's going up everytime the score's updated!
NOT! He never had a chance and incidentally his score is going down (currently 4.434). I now understand that there are ramnifications that I hadn't taken into consideration when I commented on him, but I had no intention of trying to sway any votes or even defend my poorly chosen submission.
None of the comments regarding him/photo quality bothered me at all...but I am getting a little bent that others who I perceived to be trying to 'manipulate' votes aren't being mentioned here. I don't even really want this thread to go there but if Kermi's going to become the poster child for premature discussion, at least go back and give him a 1 and make an example out of him/me. Make this big mess worth something.
Ahhh. I feel better now...carry on. :P
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07/25/2002 08:17:52 PM · #50 |
Maybe a section (like web suggestions, rants, etc...) called Spoilers or some such could be used to discuss photos in the current challenge. I think that constructive discussion in an open forum would be a good thing, while those that prefer not to know can just not read that section.
If I thought that discussion would affect the vote, I'd say outlaw it, plain and simple. But if you consider that with about 300 voters, 30 people would have to bump a photo up 1 point to make a .1 difference in the average, I find it highly unlikely that discussion would affect a score by overly much. I would venture to guess that only about 30 people read the forums regularly. I have to think the educational benefit would outweigh the possible contamination of the vote.
Of course throw the idea of prizes into the mix and all bets are off.
But that's just me :) |
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