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08/15/2013 03:43:27 PM · #1 |
I was looking at some of the previous winners and have noticed quite a trend... I'm sure others have picked up on this, and there's probably been a thread done previously, but I noticed that the average vote of the NON PARTICIPANTS is almost always lower than the average vote of participants. Why do you think this is?
Just interested in hearing others opinions.
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08/15/2013 03:55:37 PM · #2 |
| Not sure about that trend, but I think if you check those pictures which finish in the middle of the pack you'll find the case is most often the opposite. |
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08/15/2013 04:32:40 PM · #3 |
For me, I usually get higher votes from non-participants, but I have usually been in the lower half of every competition.
One thing I did notice though is that it seems like there are a few people who put ones and twos for a lot of the nicer photos. Why would the overall winner have any ones or twos. Even with differing likes, there is no way the top photo should have received a one in anyone's opinion...it's almost like there are people out there who can't be happy for others and give them a score that they deserve...they have to drag them down. |
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08/15/2013 04:36:11 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by emoons:
it's almost like there are people out there who can't be happy for others and give them a score that they deserve...they have to drag them down. |
I COMPLETELY agree with this statement!
On my "We All Have A Story To Tell", I placed middle of the pack; which I was completely fine with. But someone gave me a 1.
Now usually, I don't complain about receiving one's; because I know it happens. But for that particular challenge, it seemed really shady for ANYONE to be giving out 1s.
My picture told a REAL story, as it was unfolding. Dallas was being interviewed. That was not staged; those were not models or actors, it was really happening.
And while I know not everyone loved the shot, I'm fine with that. I LOVED IT! I am so proud of him. And in the end, that's all that really matters.
But to the person who scored it a 1... well, screw you. (can i say that?)
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08/15/2013 04:37:37 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Not sure about that trend, but I think if you check those pictures which finish in the middle of the pack you'll find the case is most often the opposite. |
I guess you are right. There are several reasons for that.
As for me, I probably never received a higher average vote from participants. As far as I can remember, never. |
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08/15/2013 04:40:50 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by emoons:
One thing I did notice though is that it seems like there are a few people who put ones and twos for a lot of the nicer photos. Why would the overall winner have any ones or twos. Even with differing likes, there is no way the top photo should have received a one in anyone's opinion...it's almost like there are people out there who can't be happy for others and give them a score that they deserve...they have to drag them down. |
There are various reasons for that. For most of us a 1 means it is so bad it cannot get any worse, but there are reasons for someone to give those. As an example, my highest scoring entry, Blue with a high 7 average, got three 1's. I know one of those 1 votes was given for the fact that it had a gun in the scene. Had nothing to do with my photo, but a subject that the person found offensive. This was a very rare case of the low voter willing to explain to me their reason.
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08/15/2013 04:44:40 PM · #7 |
My point...in that challenge, the 1st and 3rd place ribbons each had a one and the 2nd place winner had 2 twos.
Someone is just being an @ss. |
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08/15/2013 05:15:58 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by emoons:
My point...in that challenge, the 1st and 3rd place ribbons each had a one and the 2nd place winner had 2 twos.
Someone is just being an @ss. |
Is the person who gives you an "undeserved" 10 an ass as well?
We are allowed to vote how we feel about an image using whatever criteria we want, as long as we apply those criteria consistently across all entries and do not engage in a pattern designed to deliberately manipulate the results.
What is so magic about a "1" vote anyway? Logically, we should be outraged at anyone who voted a photo lower (or higher) than we did -- how much lower is merely a matter of measuring the degree of their "error."
No one is telling you how to vote on any particular picture; please extend that courtesy to others. |
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08/15/2013 05:31:44 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Is the person who gives you an "undeserved" 10 an ass as well?
We are allowed to vote how we feel about an image using whatever criteria we want, as long as we apply those criteria consistently across all entries and do not engage in a pattern designed to deliberately manipulate the results.
What is so magic about a "1" vote anyway? Logically, we should be outraged at anyone who voted a photo lower (or higher) than we did -- how much lower is merely a matter of measuring the degree of their "error."
No one is telling you how to vote on any particular picture; please extend that courtesy to others. |
Hey I get your point, and yes, you can use any criteria that you want, and no, there is nothing magical about a "1", for that matter there is nothing magical about any numbers...why is it even a competition. I think I will just randomly pass out votes based on the number feeling I get when looking at an image...like wow I see a tree...that reminds me of a 1. Oh yeah...I hate cats any picture with a cat becomes a 1 just because I hate them...it invokes a feeling of disgust each time I see one.
My point was, that I don't think the 1's were given because of someone's true dislike of the image. I think it was more of someone not being truthful about the image and wanting to bring down a score.
I would never tell someone how they should vote, but come on really?!?! Tell me that any of the top images out of the last 100 challenges deserved a 1. And I looked at your avg vote. Your average vote is higher than mine...don't play devil's advocate. You obviously appreciate the majority of the work that is on here.
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08/15/2013 05:57:27 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by emoons:
My point was, that I don't think the 1's were given because of someone's true dislike of the image. I think it was more of someone not being truthful about the image and wanting to bring down a score. |
Yes, but that is an assumption on your part, and unless you know for a fact this is occuring you are impugning the integrity of every voter here, and if you do know it for a fact you should report it in a ticket and not "call out" the suspected offender in the forums.
In medical school they teach students to spell it like this: ASS|U|ME ... the mnemonic is "When we assume it makes an ass of you and me."
The question is often asked but only rarely if ever answered; why aren't people "outraged" over the occasional votes of 9 or 10 given to images which end up in the middle or below? Those vote would seem equally undeserved, and should have the same effect on the overall standings as a low vote given a high finisher. |
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08/15/2013 06:20:40 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Yes, but that is an assumption on your part, and unless you know for a fact this is occuring you are impugning the integrity of every voter here, and if you do know it for a fact you should report it in a ticket and not "call out" the suspected offender in the forums.
In medical school they teach students to spell it like this: ASS|U|ME ... the mnemonic is "When we assume it makes an ass of you and me."
The question is often asked but only rarely if ever answered; why aren't people "outraged" over the occasional votes of 9 or 10 given to images which end up in the middle or below? Those vote would seem equally undeserved, and should have the same effect on the overall standings as a low vote given a high finisher. |
I am making more of a value judgment based on place and median votes (inference based on evidence in the voting), not just assumptions, so yes it is in some way an assumption since inferences are evidentiary based assumptions, but to assume I am "just assuming" is well... just as much an assumption on your part.
Now for the 9 or 10...how is that different...it is. Why would someone intentionally vote someone else's image up and hurt their own scores etc. That is not a malicious vote like a 1 would be. Yes they are both outliers, and statistically you will have them, but one tends to be malicious and the other doesn't. If you don't honestly see how giving the ribbon winners a 1 is not malicious, then I guess that is where we will differ in opinion. Now since I am a member and I always log in, I don't know if there is a way to do this or not, but if someone is able to vote as a nonmember or maybe they have their friends/family vote for them, or they are in a "circle of friends" on this site who share their photos with each other to bump up their scores, then yes I would say the people giving and receiving those votes are asses.
And I was not kidding earlier...I hate cats, and it is hard for me to vote on those images objectively, but I do. It would be easy for me to drop a 1 on every single photo with a cat, but I look at things like composition color, challenge requirements, etc.
Who did I call out? Did you give those 1st place images a 1? I do not see anywhere where it states who gave what rating. I am just stating my opinion on a particular question/problem. So calling me an ass through your "medical school training" is trying to "call me out". I heard that saying when I was in 7th grade...didn't have to go to medical school to figure that one out.
Message edited by author 2013-08-15 18:25:28. |
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08/15/2013 06:29:43 PM · #12 |
| A question for SC - do you guys actually, at any point, go back and see if there are abusing voting patterns from those who are leaving the 1's on the highest scoring images? |
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08/15/2013 07:35:51 PM · #13 |
Previous Discussion on Participant versus Non Participant voting
Actually here's a link to the the whole voting series
Message edited by author 2013-08-15 19:42:06. |
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08/15/2013 07:41:20 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
Previous Discussion on Participant versus Non Participant voting |
Thanks :)
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08/15/2013 08:27:47 PM · #15 |
Maybe a bit off topic, but I would like a broader range of possible votes. I end up with rows of images that I have given 7 to, and 6, and so on, but I don't really feel that the images in specific groups are equal (well, some are more equal than others) but neither do I feel like any necessarily belong in the next group up or down - I'd like to be able to differentiate a bit more.
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08/15/2013 08:28:38 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by emoons:
Now for the 9 or 10...how is that different...it is. Why would someone intentionally vote someone else's image up and hurt their own scores etc. That is not a malicious vote like a 1 would be. |
Browse around for previous discussions of "friend voting" and "voting rings" for the gory details ...
Yes, votes and voting patterns are checked by various means, both automated and manually ... but I can't give you much more detail because I (and other SC members) don't know all the details ourselves (we are members who can enter and vote, and have to be subject to the same rules and scrutiny as anyone else). |
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08/15/2013 09:45:38 PM · #17 |
| There will always be people who think the average mind should be conformed to. God forbid someone think so differently that they would give bubble gum pop a bad vote. |
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08/15/2013 11:11:59 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
Previous Discussion on Participant versus Non Participant voting
Actually here's a link to the the whole voting series |
Alright, last thing and I am done with this topic (for now).
I read this post from a couple of years ago started by DJWoodward that had some great statistical data. He compiled the stats of a nearly a quarter million images and found that basically there was a small difference between P and NonP voting, but in the law of averages it works out. Either he or another individual ran some hypotheticals and found that a 1 does not adversely affect positional rankings (specifically for the top images for the most part) and that for the rest of us it only affects our positions marginally. (By the way great work on that, my degree is in psychology, so we had to do a lot of statistical analysis...now I am a math teacher at the high school level, so I appreciate the time spent on that.)
With all of that said, in the challenge that Denielle was speaking of (we have a story to tell), this 1 did adversely affect the difference between 2nd (did not receive any 1's) and 3rd (who received one 1) place was that vote of 1. The 2nd place image won by a margin of .0434. Had that one vote not been placed or had that vote been a 7 or had the 2nd place winner received a 1 as well, then they would have swapped places...so does the 1 make a difference...absolutely. Does it make a difference in every instance not exactly, but it does to those that made the image.
Yes all of you great photographers, enlighteners of human emotion and believers of cosmic oneness with everything have thick skin. You have all won so many ribbons which mean absolutely nothing to you because really your scores were just an opinion of a specific group of voters and that really every image was equally good because there are so many varied styles and preferences out there. You say it doesn't bother you that someone thinks your image is crap, or at least they are coming off that way with their rating of your image, but think about when you first looked at one of your images and someone laid a big fat 1 on it. I am sure you weren't sitting there thinking, "Oh, how wonderful it is to have a 1, this means that the voter is expressing their honest opinion of my image...and I am so secure in my talent that it rolls off of me like water on a duck's back." I think not. I bet you are still perturbed when you check your ranking every 5 minutes and your score drops 1/100th of a point or when you look at the final rankings and you missed the last ribbon by 5/100ths of a point.
Look, I understand my work is average if that...and I am working on improving my images, but I will be honest (as you should too), it pisses me off when I see a 1 on something that I worked hours on. We all know what a 1 means...so lets not pretend that we don't.
Message edited by author 2013-08-15 23:14:05. |
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08/15/2013 11:32:53 PM · #19 |
we're relying on open public (more or less) voting right? we signed up for this -.-
i m not saying its right or wrong - but i imagine little can be done about the votes.
Message edited by author 2013-08-15 23:34:43. |
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08/15/2013 11:56:14 PM · #20 |
Avg (participants): 6.8444
Avg (non-participants): 6.1429 for 
Avg (participants): 7.0000
Avg (non-participants): 6.5306 
Avg (participants): 6.0303
Avg (non-participants): 5.5890 
It's funny that you should bring this up Denielle, I was going to do the exact thing, but didn't want to sound like I was whining. I always check the avg vote give by (non-participants) vs (participants) and it never ceases to amaze me how vast the score is, look at the above 3 for example but this time the participants where very kind to be, but not the non-participants. |
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08/16/2013 12:10:13 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by Devinder:
we're relying on open public (more or less) voting right? we signed up for this -.- |
Yep...we did sign up for it...
We must all have a competitive nature or we wouldn't have joined a site that is called "dpchallenge - a digital photography CONTEST". So to hear that the score doesn't matter is complete crap. It does matter or they wouldn't make the scores visible to the 10,000ths place and there would be no ribbons and no "posthumous awards".
So Posthumous, I never said that everyone should conform to the average mind and God forbid someone give a bad vote to whatever bubble gum pop is. I made a simple statement...maybe it wasn't simple enough...it is hard for me to believe that the 1st place ribbon winner was rated a 1 by any voter, c'mon really...the lowest rating possible? Is that ribbon winner's image so bad that it deserves to be at the bottom of the pile by any one voter's standards? Is this clear enough for you all to understand. With that said...posthumous...don't not consider me for any of your awards because I disagree with you on this :) This is a competition and I am competitive in nature if you can't all tell.
I think the injustice is done to the images in which they are rated low yet have great artistic qualities...perhaps some of the images that win that posthumous award. Those images will hardly ever win a real challenge, and that is where I agree with your statement on conforming to the average...not with the winning images. The winning images are clearly better than a 1 in every category dealing with photographic images.
You are right there is nothing that we can do about the votes. The only way you could really tell is to evaluate each individual's voting records and cross reference it with the positional rankings to see if a reverse ranking was being applied intentionally to lower the better images and raise the poorer ones and still maintain a decent average rating score, but regular Joe's like us can't do that. And besides, no one would do that right? Everyone in a competition does things fairly? Right?
And yes it is all about opinion and taste...I get that...I get everything about it. My original point was smeared all over the place and made out to seem like I was an ass for even mentioning it. My opinion about this subject is just as valid as every voters opinion on every image they rate.
So if anyone has the machismo (sorry ladies) to give an instance in which they feel that one of the top three images deserved a 1 and can list their reasons why (valid reasons), I will never write on this topic again, I will apologize for my ignorant views, and I will bow down to the greatest evaluator of talent that has ever graced photography. |
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08/16/2013 12:25:36 AM · #22 |
You're right... This is just a huge mess.
Of course, in the scheme of things, it's not too bad. |
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08/16/2013 12:34:53 AM · #23 |
indeed you are right, there are more important issues at hand!!
Message edited by author 2013-08-16 00:35:14. |
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08/16/2013 03:14:18 AM · #24 |
 The equine desecration has got to stop. |
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08/16/2013 05:35:33 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
The equine desecration has got to stop. |
Mmmmmm, toasted horsey |
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The equine desecration has got to stop.