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02/24/2013 01:39:11 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Every time someone suggests more basic or minimal there is the underlying feeling their images can't compete. They want to feel like they have a chance, they want to place a handicap, otherwise why even suggest it? You don't need a minimal challenge to liberate you with this getting it right in camera stuff, you can do that on your own. |
ah, the "underlying feeling." whose underlying feeling, yours or theirs?
Maybe we should have all challenges be basic editing, because you can do that expert or advanced stuff on your own?
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02/24/2013 01:45:01 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by tnun:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Every time someone suggests more basic or minimal there is the underlying feeling their images can't compete. They want to feel like they have a chance, they want to place a handicap, otherwise why even suggest it? You don't need a minimal challenge to liberate you with this getting it right in camera stuff, you can do that on your own. |
ah, the "underlying feeling." whose underlying feeling, yours or theirs?
Maybe we should have all challenges be basic editing, because you can do that expert or advanced stuff on your own? |
i can and do.
i get sick of the excuses of why we need more minimal challenges, they do nothing to help you grow as a photographer it just forces you to do something one way instead of another. what is the point of getting the perfect crop or perfect level horizon or perfect white balance in camera? it serves none in the grand scheme, none. what it does do is put you at a disadvantage to those with better gear, because you cannot correct any of the imperfections of which you have no control.
if you enjoy to try get it perfect in the camera and you win some great little battle with yourself, that's awesome, but don't force me to do it, i don't enter minimal, think its a pointless exercise, my time is much better spent focusing on others aspects of my game.
nothing is stopping your from editing your image only as far as you think you need to. i only use basic editing most of the time, big surprise, not because i cant do more, but because i don't think I need more.
if you think that this place is some great learning center, then learn, just quit trying to handicap the competition.
Message edited by author 2013-02-24 14:02:46. |
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02/24/2013 02:09:23 PM · #53 |
| I have nothing nice to say. |
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02/24/2013 02:19:29 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
what is the point of getting the perfect crop or perfect level horizon or perfect white balance in camera? it serves none in the grand scheme, none. |
Despite the fantastic abilities of editing programs, a slight rotation to correct a tilted horizon will degrade the image, however slightly.
Every contest has rules which are necessarily arbitrary. There will always be disagreement over exactly where the lines are drawn. The point is to take the best photo you can within whatever rules are in effect, even if some of which have nothing to do with photographic technique (rubber ducky anyone?).
The Minimal set I see as analogous to being a photojournalist in a remote location; film is flown back to the publication for "standard" developing, out of your further control, or maybe like when Kodak first popularized photography with the Brownie, when you not only didn't develop the film yourself, but the lab reloaded the camera for you.
The Basic rule set should mimic the techniques available to the basic home photographer with a darkroom: able to adjust tonal range, contrast and sharpness by developing and exposure techniques, but without the elaborate "spot editing" (e.g. dodging/burning) exemplified by Adams' work (which is what the Advanced set does) or compositing/matting techniques available to pros (our "Expert" set). |
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02/24/2013 03:30:44 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
if you enjoy to try get it perfect in the camera and you win some great little battle with yourself, that's awesome, but don't force me to do it, i don't enter minimal, think its a pointless exercise, |
No one's forcing you to do anything. If Minimal's not for you fine, that's fine, but don't ridicule the rest of use. I haven't cropped an image image in years. Not because I'm trying to make some grand point about getting it right in camera. Photography became much more fun after I shelved Photoshop altogether. If I can't fix an image with the sliders in my RAW editor, it goes into the recycle bin.
Originally posted by mike_311:
my time is much better spent focusing on others aspects of my game. |
My time is much better spent with the camera. |
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02/24/2013 04:13:23 PM · #56 |
I don't have much to add and believe this topic has been exhausted. For those who believe advanced or expert editing is required, in photography, I'll leave you this:
Message edited by author 2013-02-24 16:44:10. |
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02/24/2013 07:10:52 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by insteps:
I don't have much to add and believe this topic has been exhausted. For those who believe advanced or expert editing is required, in photography, I'll leave you this:
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Well, this is more a piece of art work than an example of "photography"; it's a pretty straightforward shot of a very intricate, 3-dimensional work. |
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02/24/2013 07:36:17 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by insteps:
I don't have much to add and believe this topic has been exhausted. For those who believe advanced or expert editing is required, in photography, I'll leave you this:
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Well, this is more a piece of art work than an example of "photography"; it's a pretty straightforward shot of a very intricate, 3-dimensional work. |
I agree the actual shot is trivial compared to the amount of prep work. |
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02/24/2013 09:51:46 PM · #59 |
I just came back to DPC yesterday after about 2 ½ years away . Looking at the OP’s post I’m guessing that minimal- basic challenges are few and far between, advanced and expert is the norm. When I was here before, all rule sets where involved, in fact expert was a rarity. I will also say this place was teaming with submissions, I don’t think I ever remember a challenge that only had 25 submissions “well maybe the April Fool debacle a few years ago).
Yes, there was just plan bad photography, some came and left, some learned and stuck around, and always there was a influx of new people trying their hand at our game. Most started with little more than a P&S bought at Wal-Mart and whatever editor was loaded with their computer, but they could play in minimal and basic. Out of that, a few learned and grew and became extraordinary in time, the list is too long to post here.
There is no other site set up like this, learning and honest competition.
I say lets bring back Minimal and basic, lets bring back teaching, and maybe, maybe watch another future extraordinary photographer grow before our eyes.. |
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02/24/2013 11:38:16 PM · #60 |
I'm putting a word in edgeways, just in case Langdon reads this.
I have read this whole thread, & I'm sorry I did, it's depressing. The people who favor minimal editing are so insistent, so tireless, so loud. They shout everyone else down. Minimal editing is not a guarantee of pure photography it's the hallmark of social media snapshots.
If this site should go to minimal editing then I would loose interest & move on. I'm sure the fundamentalist photographers who favor minimal editing would say "fine, don't let the door hit you on the way out."
Post-Processing is not a trick. It is an incredible, powerful, flexible, amazing tool. I joined my first photography competition site about 10 years ago, specifically to learn more about Post-Processing. I have learned so much! If I have to leave this site, I would regret it, but I will carry on. I wish you joy of one another's company. |
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02/24/2013 11:46:10 PM · #61 |
Hold on there! NO ONE is suggesting minimal editing for all challenges. It was suggested that minimal and/or basic challenges present slightly more often, and that perhaps, just perhaps, that might renew some interest. No one is suggesting we turn back the clock.
I have not been shouting. I have been reasoning. Rather patiently, I had thought, in the face of bullying and empty bombast. |
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02/24/2013 11:59:01 PM · #62 |
oh my - that's too weird. no one is saying it's gotta be all or none. are we reading the same thread? it's not even a matter of 'favoring' it - it's just the desire to be challenged in that way every once in a while. i mean, some people don't like expert. so what. some people don't like minimal. so what. but some of us like to play the gamut - fool around all over the spectrum. i just don't understand the need to disparage open options. especially if you don't enter every single challenge anyway.
i see i'm crossposting with tnun but will lob it anyway.
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02/25/2013 12:07:16 AM · #63 |
| Light on white = minimal editing |
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02/25/2013 12:10:24 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
I have read this whole thread, & I'm sorry I did, it's depressing. The people who favor minimal editing are so insistent, so tireless, so loud. They shout everyone else down. Minimal editing is not a guarantee of pure photography it's the hallmark of social media snapshots. |
You may have read, but you do not seem to have understood.
Some people would like one or two Minimal challenges/month, say 5-10% of the challenges ... and the "challenge" is -- under Minimal editing circumstances -- to take something people would consider a "photograph" and not a "social media snapshot" ...
No one says your image has to be "the best it can be" at the time of submission in a Minimal challenge, just the best under those circumstances.
I think everyone can/should post their Advanced-edited out-take after every Minimal challenge for comparison, perhaps along with the unedited original for that version, if you really want to demonstrate how the best "in-camera" exposure may not be ideal if further editing is planned -- THAT would provide some "learning" for everyone.
Originally posted by DPC "About" Page:
The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week. |
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02/25/2013 01:18:59 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by FourPointX:
greasy wheels don't get grease ray. but squeaky ones do :)
and i suck too. we should start a club. |
Now who would join a Suck club. Club is not quite the right word, maybe uhhhh team, suck team, naaa, but Team Suck has a ring to it...... :)
Message edited by author 2013-02-25 01:23:12. |
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02/25/2013 07:02:40 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by salmiakki:
Light on white = minimal editing |
the squeaky wheels got some grease :)
eta: alan i kinda forgot about team suck, seems to have been created a long time ago, not so much open to membership...was thinking of a new club maybe "score handicapped" or the like :P
Message edited by author 2013-02-25 07:09:52. |
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02/25/2013 07:19:32 AM · #67 |
| If DPC went all Minimal, I'd be outta here too. |
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02/25/2013 07:26:37 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by FourPointX:
Originally posted by salmiakki:
Light on white = minimal editing |
the squeaky wheels got some grease :)
alan i kinda forgot about team suck, seems to have been created a long time ago, not so much open to membership...was thinking of a new club maybe "score handicapped" or the like :P |
brian i dont think anyone is even remotely suggesting "all" minimal. just throw it in a little more often than every other month.
eta: fix stupidity
Message edited by author 2013-02-25 07:27:17. |
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02/25/2013 07:41:18 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by skewsme:
oh my - that's too weird. no one is saying it's gotta be all or none. are we reading the same thread? it's not even a matter of 'favoring' it - it's just the desire to be challenged in that way every once in a while. i mean, some people don't like expert. so what. some people don't like minimal. so what. but some of us like to play the gamut - fool around all over the spectrum. i just don't understand the need to disparage open options. especially if you don't enter every single challenge anyway.
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no we areant. i never said get rid of minimal or we should have less of it, im saying that those who want more minimal want it for the wrong reasons.
i know this discussion has been had many times before, but we need to keep having because we need change to occur. if people want to believe that minimal will encourage more participation or a perception they can compete than we need to change something. I think the rulesets name are so deceiving named its causing a problem, when i first started here i thought i would never be able to compete in advanced with the more experienced members and i then i realized advanced editing isn't really that, its what i normally do anyway.
i'm sorry i'm being brash about all this but it really bothers me that people think that its a good idea to dumb things down to encourage others to participate instead of helping them to increase their toolbox. its not the direction i'd like to see this site go and i'd bet more folks would leave since the apparent quality of images would suffer. you don't get better by striving to be mediocre. not saying minimal is mediocre but it doesn't encourage learn techniques to get better. in fact its so far out of whack from people current workflows that its a hindrance.
so yet again i will propose:
Minimal editing:
with the allowance of RAW and adjusting ONLY contrast saturation, sharpness and white balance. basically we are stripping basic down to basics while not hindering those who don't shoot jpg or care for the camera presets yet forcing you to think more about your composition and pre shot setup.
Standard editing:
just rename the advanced rule set, leave it as is, 95% of challenges should be this.
Enhanced editing:
rename expert editing, leave all else all is.
alternate weekly or bi-weekly expert and minimal so everyone is happy.
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02/25/2013 07:48:44 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by FourPointX:
brian i dont think anyone is even remotely suggesting "all" minimal. just throw it in a little more often than every other month. |
Well, that was my point. I don't want to see all of any one rule set.
Originally posted by FourPointX:
eta: fix stupidity |
Fix mine too. |
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02/25/2013 07:49:11 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
if people want to believe that minimal will encourage more participation or a perception they can compete than we need to change something.
i'm sorry i'm being brash about all this but it really bothers me that people think that its a good idea to dumb things down to encourage others to participate instead of helping them to increase their toolbox. |
this is the major point i disagree with. i personally (and think my thoughts are shared) don't believe i'll have any chance of "doing better" with a minimal challenge, nor does it encourage me to participate more. i just like the variety
Originally posted by mike_311:
not saying minimal is mediocre but it doesn't encourage learn techniques to get better.
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disagree again here. i've learned more features of my camera from the minimal challenges thant i would have probably not explored otherwise.
Originally posted by mike_311:
Minimal editing:
with the allowance of RAW and adjusting ONLY contrast saturation, sharpness and white balance. basically we are stripping basic down to basics while not hindering those who don't shoot jpg or care for the camera presets yet forcing you to think more about your composition and pre shot setup.
Standard editing:
just rename the advanced rule set, leave it as is, 95% of challenges should be this.
Enhanced editing:
rename expert editing, leave all else all is.
alternate weekly or bi-weekly expert and minimal so everyone is happy. |
agree with this very much. great idea hope it gets some play.
dig the new profile pic, by the way
eta: fix stupidity again
Message edited by author 2013-02-25 07:52:57. |
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02/25/2013 07:50:26 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by bvy:
Originally posted by FourPointX:
brian i dont think anyone is even remotely suggesting "all" minimal. just throw it in a little more often than every other month. |
Well, that was my point. I don't want to see all of any one rule set.
Originally posted by FourPointX:
eta: fix stupidity |
Fix mine too. |
please man, i haven't fixed mine in 46 years i can't be expected to fix someone else's! |
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02/25/2013 09:23:46 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
@BrennanOB:
So many logical fallacies I barely know where to start... first, you seem to imply that Minimal is "forcing the photographer to get it right in camera." Not so. It's forcing the photographer to shoot the best thing they can with essentially no post. That's like telling someone who shoots film to shoot, print blindly with no exposure compensation, and hope. It's not a realistic workflow, and no film photographer that ever cared about their printed product would do that.
The statement that " ...if your art is dependent on technological artifice, it is a good exercise to practice as bare bones as you can" is pretty condescending. It presupposes that post-processing of any type is "technological artifice" and that eschewing same makes one somehow superior. I suppose that the significance of the work of Ansel Adams is lessened because he depended on technological artifice? I think not. Post is a part of the photographic process, and artificially lopping it off may be a good way to force a new viewpoint occasionally, but not, IMO, something I'd ever want to do regularly. Note the IMO.
I tend to agree with the premise of your second paragraph; over-the-top processing gets old even when well-done, and variety *is* a good thing. I just don't think that Minimal is a way to learn good technique. Echoing your dietary analogy, mashed potatoes are fine occasionally. As a dietary staple, well, not so much. |
Am I right in thinking that you would most likely embrace minimal if it only included the levels tool? |
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02/25/2013 10:06:13 AM · #74 |
Still reading this thread. I'm recovering from recent surgery & don't have anything else to do. I don't really think this site is going to go all-Minimal (but what a horrible thought). That would be silly.
I have learned a lot through participating in side challenges. There's a March Side Challenge starting now that has no restrictions on editing. That started me wondering why I have never seen a side challenge for Minimal editing. The closest thing is the Good ol' FILM side challenge.
A side challenge for Minimal editing would be a great way to show off the benefits of this approach, plus it would give the Minimal enthusiasts a place to show off the results of their work & receive comments. I'm hoping someone will start a Minimal Side Challenge. I would follow it, for sure.
Message edited by author 2013-02-25 10:08:42. |
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02/25/2013 11:03:02 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
That started me wondering why I have never seen a side challenge for Minimal editing. snip
A side challenge for Minimal editing would be a great way to show off the benefits of this approach, plus it would give the Minimal enthusiasts a place to show off the results of their work & receive comments. I'm hoping someone will start a Minimal Side Challenge. I would follow it, for sure. |
Been a while but it's been done albeit this was a black and white SC
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