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08/19/2004 12:01:38 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
All of my software is licensed and paid for.
Stealing is stealing, regardless of the motive or the likelihood of being caught. |
Just yet another random comment.
Copyright infringement isn't stealing. it is copyright infringement. They are legally quite different and rightly so. Large corporations have a vested interest in convincing you that copyright infringement is stealing though. Doesn't mean you have to buy in to their marketing message.
Copyright for example (at least should) expire.
Breaking license agreements for software is largely a different issue again. |
I wasn't referrring to the legal definition of stealing, rather my own personal definition. To me, if I take or use something that the owner thinks should pay for or ask permission to use without paying or asking, that IS stealing, regardless of the damage to the owner.
I'm sure that the law sees it differently. |
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08/19/2004 12:07:31 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I wasn't referrring to the legal definition of stealing, rather my own personal definition. To me, if I take or use something that the owner thinks should pay for or ask permission to use without paying or asking, that IS stealing, regardless of the damage to the owner.
I'm sure that the law sees it differently. |
Better not get caught singing 'Happy Birthday' to anyone you don't know in a public place then...
you get away with fair use for family & friends, but anything larger is also 'stealing' even though the song was written in the 19th century.
Point is, copyright law has and is being abused by large corporations, such as Disney. The want you to think of it as stealing. Much in the same way that when you buy a CD, and rip it for playing on an mp3 player, they'd like you to pay twice for that, otherwise you've stolen it from them.
Message edited by author 2004-08-19 12:08:37.
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08/19/2004 12:14:50 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Better not get caught singing 'Happy Birthday' to anyone you don't know in a public place then...
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I try not to make singing to strangers a habit. For that matter, with my singing voice, I probably shouldn't even sing in the shower. ;)
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08/19/2004 12:20:02 PM · #29 |
This is a touchy issue.
I Digimarc all images I put on the web.. and if they are not on a competition site, I put a visible signature too. I feel very protective of my work.
WHen it comes to software, I don't find too much fault with those that use grey market or less than legal copied software. So much of it is sooo expensive. As long as it is used for only recreational or personal use. If your using it to make money, that is another story.
Any software I use to generate income is purchased and liscensed. |
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08/19/2004 12:22:27 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by airatic:
Well, CompUSA iosn't exactly a small company, and they have demo units for sale all the time. I have the install kit, and like I said, I did a FULL install when I got the computer.
Are you saying I should destroy my entire install kit because I didn't specifically buy one part of the included sofware? I didn't "specifically" buy OSX, or iTunes, or any number of other programs included with the Mac, so should I destroy those as well?? |
Last I checked, an OS is typically part of the deal and anybody can download iTunes for free. But just to give you the benefit of the doubt, are you saying that a full version of Adobe Photoshop CS was included with your install disks, i.e. you have a physical disk with the software on it that you could install on another computer? And you have a legal serial number to go with it? Not the one on the splash screen but an actual, authentic Adobe document with the serial number?
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to start World War III here but I have never in my life heard of a full version of PS being included in an install disk. I've seen Elements & LE bundled that way - but never PS. I have seen some retailers bundle PS with a computer purchase but in those instances, it was clearly stated that you would receive a legal disk (from Adobe in an Adobe box with an Adobe serial number, etc.) not software that would accessed from the install disk. And when you purchased a "bundle' like that, the cost was higher compared with buying the computer alone. In other words, you might have gotten a discount on PS but you still HAD TO BUY IT. |
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08/19/2004 12:26:30 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
I've often wondered how many of the people screaming about copyright have Limewire, KaZaA or the like installed on their computers. As artists, we are essentially in the business of producing intellectual property. To steal the art of others, and then complain that our work is or could be stolen, seems more than a bit hypocritical to me (Please note I am NOT making accusations of anyone, either participants in the previous thread or otherwise).
-Terry, running a licensed version of Adobe Photoshop and using OpenOffice for his office suite. |
Yes but most people aren't downloading music then claiming they wrote it or selling it as they're own work. As a publishing writer using work without permission professionally or claiming it as their own is a lot different then downloading off of Kazaa. You can copy out my work all you want, but make sure my name is on it or you're not making money off of it.There are lots of copyright laws regarding publishing, I don't know about photography, but I'd look into it.I would think the same laws would apply. |
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08/19/2004 12:28:26 PM · #32 |
I am not sure if you still can, but there was a time when you could download unlicensed copies of Photoshop, Paintshop Pro and various others off of Kazaa.
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08/19/2004 12:38:35 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by JC_Homola:
This is a touchy issue.
I Digimarc all images I put on the web.. and if they are not on a competition site, I put a visible signature too. I feel very protective of my work.
WHen it comes to software, I don't find too much fault with those that use grey market or less than legal copied software. So much of it is sooo expensive. As long as it is used for only recreational or personal use. If your using it to make money, that is another story.
Any software I use to generate income is purchased and liscensed. |
The photographers who stole the images in question did so for recreational use and not for profit. Does that make it right?
-Terry
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08/19/2004 12:45:59 PM · #34 |
I don't know if it's a full version, since I only had 6.0 before, it seems complete to me. Yes, I have the serial number for the install disks, and I haven't done anything other than install the boot disk. Regardless of the free status of iTunes, I have the entire iLife suite as well, DVDStudio Pro is included too.
Let's look at it this way:
Assume I never came to this site, knew nothing about adobe or anything. I install the boot disks as instructed in the manual, and start working on my computer. No warnings appear saying to ensure I have bought CS separately (or any other program), no splash screens suggest anything other than that this software is included. Even the store tells me all the software is included.
Then I come to the site and people say I am using an illegal copy of the software. What is your opinion? |
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08/19/2004 12:55:00 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by airatic:
I don't know if it's a full version, since I only had 6.0 before, it seems complete to me. Yes, I have the serial number for the install disks, and I haven't done anything other than install the boot disk. Regardless of the free status of iTunes, I have the entire iLife suite as well, DVDStudio Pro is included too.
Let's look at it this way:
Assume I never came to this site, knew nothing about adobe or anything. I install the boot disks as instructed in the manual, and start working on my computer. No warnings appear saying to ensure I have bought CS separately (or any other program), no splash screens suggest anything other than that this software is included. Even the store tells me all the software is included.
Then I come to the site and people say I am using an illegal copy of the software. What is your opinion? |
I think my opinion is quite clear. Based on what you have stated in the previous thread and in this one, I think you are using an illegal copy of the software. Does it matter?... nope! Just my opinion and you know what they say about those.... |
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08/19/2004 12:57:26 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by airatic:
Well, CompUSA iosn't exactly a small company, and they have demo units for sale all the time. I have the install kit, and like I said, I did a FULL install when I got the computer.
Are you saying I should destroy my entire install kit because I didn't specifically buy one part of the included sofware? I didn't "specifically" buy OSX, or iTunes, or any number of other programs included with the Mac, so should I destroy those as well?? |
Like I said, it is a sketchy thing. You would have to read through all the EULA's that you agreed to when purchasing the Demo. You would also have to read the EULA that CompUSA agreed to when they put that demo up.
It's likely that you have everything legal and clear. I wouldn't know unless I looked at all the EULAs involved in the purchase of your demo unit. Anyway, as a home user, you likely have nothing to worry about, if you were a corporation or were running a small business though... |
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08/19/2004 01:04:43 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
This statement is surprising, coming as it does from an attorney.
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"You were expecting halos? Inner light? I'm not that kind of angel."
;)
M |
No...You're an attorney! :-P
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08/19/2004 01:24:50 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Spitfire:
Fully licensed full version of PS-CS here, before that the version of PS 5 that came with the camera.
Though i get most of my software at a reduced rate through a site license -- really who will bother to pirate Windows/Office ect. when you can buy the legal version for 20 bucks or download it from a legal source for free? (though i could never get the longhorn client demo to download properly)
Though if i had to pay full retail on everything i probably would start looking to the less-then-legal sources -- even though i am in software developement as well |
Wow, I'd like to know where you find a fully legal version of MS Windows, or Office that isn't 10 years old for $20. |
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08/19/2004 02:06:36 PM · #39 |
Just got this interesting article today. It's very appropriate to this discussion. Enjoy.
Open Letter Against British Copyright Indoctrination in Schools
//www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/8/5/151113/8977
Message edited by author 2004-08-19 14:07:15. |
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08/19/2004 04:14:17 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by bmatt17:
Wow, I'd like to know where you find a fully legal version of MS Windows, or Office that isn't 10 years old for $20. |
any university campus would be a good start...
For example, here's the prices
//www.wasatchsoftware.com/academic_open_license.htm
yes you need to qualify for the discount.
Message edited by author 2004-08-19 16:15:18.
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08/19/2004 05:12:52 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by bmatt17:
Wow, I'd like to know where you find a fully legal version of MS Windows, or Office that isn't 10 years old for $20. |
any university campus would be a good start...
For example, here's the prices
//www.wasatchsoftware.com/academic_open_license.htm
yes you need to qualify for the discount. |
OK, I know you can get discount software if your a student, and some others might qualify as well. Still. Windows XP on the site you linked is $70. Photoshop CS on Adobe's site is $299. Now for the rest of the wold that doesn't qualify, XP is $200 provided you can get an upgrade. I build my own PC's, so I would need the full version. PS CS is $650. Elements $129.(Taken from the Adobe site). Still a lot of money when you can go open source and get it free, or pirate and get it free. |
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08/19/2004 05:15:36 PM · #42 |
this whole copyright thing is a big mess and in some instances has gone too far from a legal perspective.
Example: My fiance has a degree in Art History, worked in Graphic desing for over 10 years so she is EXTREAMLY familar with copyright laws and proper markings for copyright. Now she is an Elementary school art teacher.
She has been collecting magazines all sumer long so the kids can cut out pictures of animals and text for art projects. She found out she cant use them now because of copyright laws the school does not want to deal with, in fear that the school will be sued for copyright infrigement for a second graders art project.
Some colors are copyright protected, fonts and images so its easier for her to just NOT use the magazines instead taking the risk that a copyrighted color was used for a childs eye in a mosaic self portriat.
Damn lawyers/corporatons making our life difficult all the time.
James
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08/19/2004 05:18:25 PM · #43 |
| I wrote a report on piracy and how it's a huge problem worldwide... I forget it all now of course... Anyways Mine is legit, elements comes with the rebel :-) |
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08/19/2004 05:24:26 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by bmatt17:
OK, I know you can get discount software if your a student, and some others might qualify as well. Still. Windows XP on the site you linked is $70. Photoshop CS on Adobe's site is $299. Now for the rest of the wold that doesn't qualify, XP is $200 provided you can get an upgrade. I build my own PC's, so I would need the full version. PS CS is $650. Elements $129.(Taken from the Adobe site). Still a lot of money when you can go open source and get it free, or pirate and get it free. |
I understand what you're saying, and the answer is, yes, breaking the law is generally cheaper initially. Regardless of the status of my own software (which I am confident is fully legit), I don't specifically seek out pirated software.
Yes, it would be cheaper, but it would be cheaper for me to steal a television than to buy one. Working to change retailer practices and laws is good, breaking laws because you don't like them is not.
I totally agree that 700 bucks for an intangible object that will be outdated in a year or two is ridiculous, but that's irrelevant.
Just remember the rule of fast, good, and cheap:
You can get good and fast, but it won't be cheap.
You can get cheap and good, but it won't be fast.
You can get fast and cheap, but it won't be good.
And I've never tried the GIMP, so you GIMP users can refute the fastcheapgood rule if you think it's warranted :) |
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08/19/2004 05:44:42 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by airatic:
Originally posted by bmatt17:
OK, I know you can get discount software if your a student, and some others might qualify as well. Still. Windows XP on the site you linked is $70. Photoshop CS on Adobe's site is $299. Now for the rest of the wold that doesn't qualify, XP is $200 provided you can get an upgrade. I build my own PC's, so I would need the full version. PS CS is $650. Elements $129.(Taken from the Adobe site). Still a lot of money when you can go open source and get it free, or pirate and get it free. |
I understand what you're saying, and the answer is, yes, breaking the law is generally cheaper initially. Regardless of the status of my own software (which I am confident is fully legit), I don't specifically seek out pirated software.
Yes, it would be cheaper, but it would be cheaper for me to steal a television than to buy one. Working to change retailer practices and laws is good, breaking laws because you don't like them is not.
I totally agree that 700 bucks for an intangible object that will be outdated in a year or two is ridiculous, but that's irrelevant.
Just remember the rule of fast, good, and cheap:
You can get good and fast, but it won't be cheap.
You can get cheap and good, but it won't be fast.
You can get fast and cheap, but it won't be good.
And I've never tried the GIMP, so you GIMP users can refute the fastcheapgood rule if you think it's warranted :) |
I personally don't consider piracy theft. And I can say that as a software developer, who has found cracks and keygens for software I have developed. Does it decrease in profit made by the company? I'm sure it does some. Would I spend $650 of PS if I couldn't get it free? No, I'd use gimp. Same with Windows, I'd use(and do use) Linux. Is pirating PS the same as stealing a TV? Absolutly not. And as far as fast, cheap and good. Linux is not only fast, it's free and better than Windows. If your using the software for business or profit, then you should ablsolutly pay for it. |
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