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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> image thief ? software thief ?
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08/19/2004 06:30:17 AM · #1
I don't agree with using someone else's images without permission or credit (see this thread) , but ......

how about the (editing or other) software everybody is using here ?

all fully legal, full licenses paid ?

don't need an answer

just think about it from the perspective of the software programmer
08/19/2004 07:03:08 AM · #2
Originally posted by willem:

just think about it from the perspective of the software programmer

I'm a software developer, and I disagree much more with image theft than software theft. Why? Because image theft is (in some cases) about taking credit for someone else's work, software theft isn't.
08/19/2004 07:09:18 AM · #3
Originally posted by willem:

I don't agree with using someone else's images without permission or credit (see this thread) , but ......

how about the (editing or other) software everybody is using here ?

all fully legal, full licenses paid ?

don't need an answer

just think about it from the perspective of the software programmer


In the world of office software, etc I'd expect to see a lot of hands raised, but for some reason my gut feeling is that photography might be a little different. There goes my optimism again! Here's why:

(1) Most cameras come with something like PS Elements which is good enough for most folks. That would be licensed.

(2) I guess this would apply more to the SLR crowd, but if you can afford a 4 or 5 digit gear budget it's hard to imagine that you'd need to pirate software.

That being said, people will be people. If anyone is using a pirated copy of editing software and wants to clean their conscience without cleaning their wallet I'd highly recommend trying out the GIMP. And just for the heck of it, if you're looking to do the same for office software check out OpenOffice. I've been using both exclusively for years. The $$ I saved made for a sweet Nikor 70-300 / f4, and I've never regretted the decision.

08/19/2004 07:34:30 AM · #4
I think PaulMdx is right - it's more about the guy passing off other people's work as his own, rather than any financial angle.

That said, my copy of Photoshop is all fully paid for and legal.
08/19/2004 09:08:30 AM · #5
PS Elements comes with the Rebel and I'd assume other Canon products - so anyone who has the Rebel or 10D, 1D, should theoretically have PSE and be legal. :) That's over 1000 of us on the site.

M

Message edited by author 2004-08-19 09:08:44.
08/19/2004 09:18:06 AM · #6
I've often wondered how many of the people screaming about copyright have Limewire, KaZaA or the like installed on their computers. As artists, we are essentially in the business of producing intellectual property. To steal the art of others, and then complain that our work is or could be stolen, seems more than a bit hypocritical to me (Please note I am NOT making accusations of anyone, either participants in the previous thread or otherwise).

-Terry, running a licensed version of Adobe Photoshop and using OpenOffice for his office suite.
08/19/2004 09:18:30 AM · #7
I agree regarding the fact that most people here are likely using legally licensed software applications, or at least own one copy of the software and may have it installed on two computers, of which they only use one at a time, like a laptop and a desktop PC.
08/19/2004 09:36:50 AM · #8
Originally posted by Nelzie:

I agree regarding the fact that most people here are likely using legally licensed software applications, or at least own one copy of the software and may have it installed on two computers, of which they only use one at a time, like a laptop and a desktop PC.


In some software licenses, this is still legal. For example, the Adobe® Photoshop® CS license states explicitly that this is permitted (https://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/pdfs/cs_combined.pdf paragraph 2.4).

That said, many-to-most software licenses do not permit this, so it is important to read the license agreement before doing this with any software.

-Terry
08/19/2004 09:41:33 AM · #9
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:


In some software licenses, this is still legal. For example, the Adobe® Photoshop® CS license states explicitly that this is permitted (https://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/pdfs/cs_combined.pdf paragraph 2.4).


I was pleasantly surprised about that in the CS license. It would be even nicer if the Mac & PC licenses were interchangable like this, but I guess as one version is vastly superior to the other, it isn't surprising that they don't license them together... :)

Personally I used an unlicensed version of photoshop for years, justifying it because 1/ I couldn't afford it and 2/ I only used it for about half a dozen things a year so they weren't 'losing' money in that I'd never have bought it anyway.

When I started using it more heavily I bought a copy. It is cheaper than most of the lenses I own and I use it more often. I couldn't justify not paying for it any more.
08/19/2004 09:45:11 AM · #10
A software designer should NOT be able to limit it like that. That is my problem with software. "You can only install it on ONE machine."

Yeah? What if I upgrade? What if I bought it for 'work' but I bought it personally then I get fired?

If I buy a DVD, I can play it at home, at work, in the car, anywhere! If I buy a CD, same. If I buy a camera, I can take it anywhere I go, sell it on ebay, etc. If I buy an apple, I can eat it, make apple pie, anything!

But ooooh software and their limits.

Yes, I have Shareaza (the fastest of the downloader utilities) and yes, I use it. I do have Photoshop Elements, however. I do have a legit copy of lots of software. Office came with my laptop. If I buy a new computer, I don't have a disk for Office - just a restore disk for this laptop. However, I OWN Elements. You can guaranteeeeee that any computer I use for photography WILL have Elements on it. Same with ALL and ANY software I buy.

(I know we "license" software these days. The legal semantics do not change my mind.)

M
08/19/2004 10:01:32 AM · #11
Originally posted by mavrik:

The legal semantics do not change my mind.)


This statement is surprising, coming as it does from an attorney.

Most software licenses include a provision that you can move the software from one computer to another, so long as you completely remove it from the one computer before installing it on the other. Some exceptions may exist in the OEM licensing space, where the software is licensed to the equipment manufacturer and not the end user. I am not sure of the legal implications of moving software in those cases.

A software license is a legally binding contract. If I do not like the terms of a particular contract, I do not enter into it. This means that I do not use the product in question, but instead find an alternative whose terms I find more acceptable. This is why I use OpenOffice and not Microsoft Office. It does everything I need, including opening and creating Microsoft-compatible documents and avoids the high cost and unfavorable terms of a Microsoft software license. Adobe's license terms are more user-friendly, and their software includes key features I want, so I paid for their product.

-Terry
08/19/2004 10:06:52 AM · #12
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by mavrik:

The legal semantics do not change my mind.)


This statement is surprising, coming as it does from an attorney.


"You were expecting halos? Inner light? I'm not that kind of angel."

;)

M

Message edited by author 2004-08-19 10:08:34.
08/19/2004 10:12:34 AM · #13
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:


In some software licenses, this is still legal. For example, the Adobe® Photoshop® CS license states explicitly that this is permitted (https://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/pdfs/cs_combined.pdf paragraph 2.4).


I was pleasantly surprised about that in the CS license. It would be even nicer if the Mac & PC licenses were interchangable like this, but I guess as one version is vastly superior to the other, it isn't surprising that they don't license them together... :)

Personally I used an unlicensed version of photoshop for years, justifying it because 1/ I couldn't afford it and 2/ I only used it for about half a dozen things a year so they weren't 'losing' money in that I'd never have bought it anyway.

When I started using it more heavily I bought a copy. It is cheaper than most of the lenses I own and I use it more often. I couldn't justify not paying for it any more.


I don't know if I would ever purchase a copy of Photoshop. Let me follow that up by saying that I don't use Photoshop, at all, period. I did use it a few times on a friend's PC, so I have experienced it. I just can't justify spending that much money for editing software when my needs for editing are light and this isn't a professional job for me, just a hobby.

By the time I believe that I will be 'good' enough to take this to a professional thing, I may find that The GIMP will have progressed enough to make purchasing Photoshop a moot point. Note: I didn't say that is how it is today, just that it might be 'professional grade' within the next few years.
08/19/2004 10:37:33 AM · #14
I use a legal copy of Photoshop CS - pricey yes but monetary gifts from relatives who support my creative endeavors allowed me to purchase it. If not for their generosity, I'd be using Elements or something like that and that would be fine. It's just wrong to use pirated software - I mean, think about how hard the software developers worked to produce PS CS. To them, that is their art and they should be compensated... Now what I find interesting is that someone thought enough of this subject to post this thread. Yet, in another thread (pg.3) an individual actually boasted about getting "free" software. This bugs me as not another soul pointed out that the software shouldn't be utilized.
I point this out not because I'm looking for some recognition for taking the moral high ground but because I believe we should set an example and live by that example. My hope is that by conducting ourselves with integrity, the ripple effect will influence others to 'do the right thing'.
(Gee, do you folks ever find yourselves incapable of not rambling on and on and on... LOL I think I need more coffee so my brain will kick in!)
08/19/2004 11:00:33 AM · #15
Originally posted by mavrik:

If I buy a DVD, I can play it at home, at work, in the car, anywhere! If I buy a CD, same. If I buy a camera, I can take it anywhere I go, sell it on ebay, etc. If I buy an apple, I can eat it, make apple pie, anything!

The point being that you can only play that DVD in ONE place at a time. You can only use a camera in one place at a time, and the same applies to the apple.

MOST software licenses will in fact allow you to install it on another computer, as long as you remove it from the first one. In other words, you can transfer it to as many computers as you like but you're only licensed for ONE installation.

I'm not sure what you'd propose they do differently.
08/19/2004 11:05:01 AM · #16
As the person who posted that, I should clarify:
I did a full install FROM the boot disk on the computer when I got it, and I ended up with CS and Office. I checked with the store, and they said all the software on the computer was included with my purchase, but since it was a demo model, everything was in a single install pack. I paid for the computer, so I didn't get the sofware free, just at a reduced price, just as I got MacOSX included when it would normally cost a pretty penny to buy it separately.

Edit: And according to the license agreement as gander describes it, the software would be fine regardless, since they no longer have it and transfered the ownership to me.

Message edited by author 2004-08-19 11:07:24.
08/19/2004 11:18:45 AM · #17
All of my software is licensed and paid for.

Stealing is stealing, regardless of the motive or the likelihood of being caught.
08/19/2004 11:23:41 AM · #18
Originally posted by airatic:

As the person who posted that, I should clarify:
I did a full install FROM the boot disk on the computer when I got it, and I ended up with CS and Office. I checked with the store, and they said all the software on the computer was included with my purchase, but since it was a demo model, everything was in a single install pack. I paid for the computer, so I didn't get the sofware free, just at a reduced price, just as I got MacOSX included when it would normally cost a pretty penny to buy it separately.

Edit: And according to the license agreement as gander describes it, the software would be fine regardless, since they no longer have it and transfered the ownership to me.


If you read the license agreement, you will find that most of them prohibit aftermarket sales. There is no transfer of license allowed. In the case of your demo unit, it's a sketchy thing.

If, for instance, the corporation I work for decides to donate our old PCs to a local school, we are legally obligated to wipe the hard disks and keep or destroy all copies of the software, per the license agreement. All we are allowed to 'give' is the, useless without an OS, PC tower, monitor and other peripherals.
08/19/2004 11:31:51 AM · #19
Originally posted by Nelzie:

If you read the license agreement, you will find that most of them prohibit aftermarket sales. There is no transfer of license allowed.

For Adobe products, that's not true. Adobe has a process for transferring licenses; you can read more about it here. When I sold my Mac, I sold some Adobe software with it and went through this process to officially transfer the license to the purchaser.
08/19/2004 11:33:43 AM · #20
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

All of my software is licensed and paid for.

Stealing is stealing, regardless of the motive or the likelihood of being caught.


Just yet another random comment.

Copyright infringement isn't stealing. it is copyright infringement. They are legally quite different and rightly so. Large corporations have a vested interest in convincing you that copyright infringement is stealing though. Doesn't mean you have to buy in to their marketing message.

Copyright for example (at least should) expire.

Breaking license agreements for software is largely a different issue again.
08/19/2004 11:35:09 AM · #21
Well, CompUSA iosn't exactly a small company, and they have demo units for sale all the time. I have the install kit, and like I said, I did a FULL install when I got the computer.

Are you saying I should destroy my entire install kit because I didn't specifically buy one part of the included sofware? I didn't "specifically" buy OSX, or iTunes, or any number of other programs included with the Mac, so should I destroy those as well??

Message edited by author 2004-08-19 11:37:47.
08/19/2004 11:44:59 AM · #22
Fully licensed full version of PS-CS here, before that the version of PS 5 that came with the camera.
Though i get most of my software at a reduced rate through a site license -- really who will bother to pirate Windows/Office ect. when you can buy the legal version for 20 bucks or download it from a legal source for free? (though i could never get the longhorn client demo to download properly)

Though if i had to pay full retail on everything i probably would start looking to the less-then-legal sources -- even though i am in software developement as well

Message edited by author 2004-08-19 11:45:56.
08/19/2004 11:46:45 AM · #23
You know, given that this site is obviously so educational, couldn't we approach Adobe to get an educational price on Photoshop for members... ? :)

Think of the jump in membership that would introduce!
08/19/2004 11:59:22 AM · #24
Sometimes I have a hard time picking between your sarcasm and when you're being serious. If you're serious, it's not a bad idea. If you're being sarcastic, at least you're right. ;)

M
08/19/2004 12:00:53 PM · #25
Originally posted by mavrik:

Sometimes I have a hard time picking between your sarcasm and when you're being serious.


That's what keeps it interesting. It could be both at the same time.

Message edited by author 2004-08-19 12:01:04.
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