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05/17/2011 11:23:20 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Also, since ya asked about Amsterdam, the Netherlands is listed as the number one destination for human trafficking... sex slavery...
What harm could legalized prostitution do, right? |
Do you have a link one could refer to... I would love to see what is included in the numbers quoted in this instance.
Ray |
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05/17/2011 11:24:57 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dmadden:
I'm yet to see a good argument against polygamy. |
For most men, the thought of having more than one wife nagging at him is a good enough argument in itself. :) |
Must be a lot of nagging wives in the north america, u guys keep bringing it up. |
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05/17/2011 11:25:01 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by dmadden:
There are very few areas in the world that have legal prostitution. |
Not quite true. Prostitution is legal in most of North America, excluding the US. Almost all of South America. Southwest Europe, parts of Asia. Several African nations.
According to AVERT, sex workers in parts of Africa have up to a 20% infection rate, far exceeding that of the general population.
And as far as trafficking goes, criminals are going to traffic to where the money is... location, location, location.
Message edited by author 2011-05-17 23:33:47.
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05/17/2011 11:27:20 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Also, since ya asked about Amsterdam, the Netherlands is listed as the number one destination for human trafficking... sex slavery...
What harm could legalized prostitution do, right? |
Do you have a link one could refer to... I would love to see what is included in the numbers quoted in this instance.
Ray |
The crime activity came directly from Wikipedia (and is cited) //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands
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05/17/2011 11:33:21 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dmadden:
There are very few areas in the world that have legal prostitution. |
Not quite true. Prostitution is legal in most of North America, excluding the US. Almost all of South America. Southwest Europe, parts of Asia. Several African nations.
According to AVERT, sex workers in parts of Africa have up to a 20% infection rate, far exceeding that of the general population. |
Partially right as it relates to Canada. While prostitution is not illegal in Canada, most of the activities associated with it are. Living off the avails, maintainain a bawdy house, soliciting... all of these activities will land you before the courts.
Just saying...
Ray |
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05/17/2011 11:36:21 PM · #56 |
| I say legalize it all. Especially prostitution, I mean abortion is legal based on the "her body, her choice" theory, is it not? Then why not prostitution? |
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05/17/2011 11:36:35 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Partially right as it relates to Canada. While prostitution is not illegal in Canada, most of the activities associated with it are. Living off the avails, maintainain a bawdy house, soliciting... all of these activities will land you before the courts.
Just saying...
Ray |
I was reading that... must make it quite difficult.... LOL
I know local police here rarely target prostitutes themselves, but rather set up stings to catch would-be consumers. They busted quite a few guys at a local Hooters.
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05/17/2011 11:41:15 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by dmadden:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dmadden:
I'm yet to see a good argument against polygamy. |
For most men, the thought of having more than one wife nagging at him is a good enough argument in itself. :) |
Must be a lot of nagging wives in the north america, u guys keep bringing it up. |
I really don't have an issue with polygamy. I wouldn't want it, myself. But if all involved are doing so of their own will, go for it.
I'll settle for an occasional threesome.
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05/18/2011 12:24:28 AM · #59 |
| Polygamy would probably reduce the need for prostitution :) |
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05/18/2011 01:19:54 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Who is the victim? |
Read the study I linked. The answer is loud and clear. |
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05/18/2011 01:43:34 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Also, since ya asked about Amsterdam, the Netherlands is listed as the number one destination for human trafficking... sex slavery... |
As I read it the report does not rank any nations. "Thailand, Japan, Israel, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Turkey and the US were the most common destinations, the report said." This from the reported source of the Wikipedia article. So while the Netherlands is big destination, it is on par with the USA and many others. |
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05/18/2011 02:07:48 AM · #62 |
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05/18/2011 04:33:07 AM · #63 |
I left the discussion, wanting to get my "gay" sleep last night, in my "gay" pj's. Have now had a "gay" breakfast with another "gay" person who spent the night, (in my "gay" livingroom). I have now brushed my "gay" teeth and sit here in front of my "gay" mac (please don´t tell apple). Thank you Iamwoman, I love that poster
The three things that have mostly been the subjects in this interesting discussion are imo different and any decisions and discussions about legalization should not be bundled.
Being gay is not a choice, it is who you are.
Being a prostitute is in most cases not a choice, it is very often something you have been forced into. Over 80 % of prostitutes in the US are rape victims. More often than not, a girl starts prostitution at the age of 12 to 14, and please do not try to convince me or anyone else that we then have two consenting adults. The statistics for other countries is not so very different. And let's also keep in mind, that MOST of the money that changes hands in prostitution does not end up in the prostitute's pockets.
A lot of interesting information is to be found all over the internet, one example is: prostitutionresearch.com
According to them, prostitution is:
a) sexual harassment
b) rape
c) battering
d) verbal abuse
e) domestic violence
f) a racist practice
g) a violation of human rights
h) childhood sexual abuse
i) a consequence of male domination of women
j) a means of maintaining male domination of women
k) all of the above
Yes, there are boys and men too among prostitutes, but the prostitution industry "caters" more or less to men, most of the male prostitutes have male "customers".
In polygamy, the victims there are women, not men. Now, someone might try to find a tribe or society somewhere were women can have many husbands, but the victims in polygamy are women. Yes, I chose to call them victims, this is not the life they would chose, but you see, they have no choice. Their society allows it, both muslim and christian societies - ruled by men, not by women.
And now, I have to do some linguistic research, I shall try my darndest in refraining from it having any gay angle, we wouldn't want it to be biased - now would we ;) |
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05/18/2011 05:11:07 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by GuGi:
I left the discussion, wanting to get my "gay" sleep last night, in my "gay" pj's. Have now had a "gay" breakfast with another "gay" person who spent the night, (in my "gay" livingroom). I have now brushed my "gay" teeth and sit here in front of my "gay" mac (please don´t tell apple). |
you're the "happiest" person I've ever met |
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05/18/2011 07:58:02 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by GuGi:
Being a prostitute is in most cases not a choice, it is very often something you have been forced into. Over 80 % of prostitutes in the US are rape victims. More often than not, a girl starts prostitution at the age of 12 to 14, and please do not try to convince me or anyone else that we then have two consenting adults. The statistics for other countries is not so very different. And let's also keep in mind, that MOST of the money that changes hands in prostitution does not end up in the prostitute's pockets.
A lot of interesting information is to be found all over the internet, one example is: prostitutionresearch.com
According to them, prostitution is:
a) sexual harassment
b) rape
c) battering
d) verbal abuse
e) domestic violence
f) a racist practice
g) a violation of human rights
h) childhood sexual abuse
i) a consequence of male domination of women
j) a means of maintaining male domination of women
k) all of the above
Yes, there are boys and men too among prostitutes, but the prostitution industry "caters" more or less to men, most of the male prostitutes have male "customers".
In polygamy, the victims there are women, not men. Now, someone might try to find a tribe or society somewhere were women can have many husbands, but the victims in polygamy are women. Yes, I chose to call them victims, this is not the life they would chose, but you see, they have no choice. Their society allows it, both muslim and christian societies - ruled by men, not by women.
And now, I have to do some linguistic research, I shall try my darndest in refraining from it having any gay angle, we wouldn't want it to be biased - now would we ;) |
Its hard to argue with your points but, no one is saying we should legalize pimping, merely if a woman or man wants to freely sell their goods.
and polygamy is generally the result, from what i see, of religious oppression. but there isn't really a debate as to whether is should be legalized.
back to the topic at hand, gay marriage doesn't nothing to detriment society and one could argue that neither doesn't prostitution, so long as its regulated. really, is it any worse or different than porn? |
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05/18/2011 08:25:01 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by GuGi:
I left the discussion, wanting to get my "gay" sleep last night, in my "gay" pj's. Have now had a "gay" breakfast with another "gay" person who spent the night, (in my "gay" livingroom). I have now brushed my "gay" teeth and sit here in front of my "gay" mac (please don´t tell apple). Thank you Iamwoman, I love that poster
The three things that have mostly been the subjects in this interesting discussion are imo different and any decisions and discussions about legalization should not be bundled.
Being gay is not a choice, it is who you are.
Being a prostitute is in most cases not a choice, it is very often something you have been forced into. Over 80 % of prostitutes in the US are rape victims. More often than not, a girl starts prostitution at the age of 12 to 14, and please do not try to convince me or anyone else that we then have two consenting adults. The statistics for other countries is not so very different. And let's also keep in mind, that MOST of the money that changes hands in prostitution does not end up in the prostitute's pockets.
A lot of interesting information is to be found all over the internet, one example is: prostitutionresearch.com
According to them, prostitution is:
a) sexual harassment
b) rape
c) battering
d) verbal abuse
e) domestic violence
f) a racist practice
g) a violation of human rights
h) childhood sexual abuse
i) a consequence of male domination of women
j) a means of maintaining male domination of women
k) all of the above
Yes, there are boys and men too among prostitutes, but the prostitution industry "caters" more or less to men, most of the male prostitutes have male "customers".
In polygamy, the victims there are women, not men. Now, someone might try to find a tribe or society somewhere were women can have many husbands, but the victims in polygamy are women. Yes, I chose to call them victims, this is not the life they would chose, but you see, they have no choice. Their society allows it, both muslim and christian societies - ruled by men, not by women.
And now, I have to do some linguistic research, I shall try my darndest in refraining from it having any gay angle, we wouldn't want it to be biased - now would we ;) |
All of those are byproducts of having prostitution criminalized, not the result of prostitution itself.
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05/18/2011 08:32:15 AM · #67 |
| "Social Tolerance" is a weird thing. Personally, I think its a bad idea to base laws on Religious points of view- whatever they are- so called "legislating morality." On the other hand, lets get it straight- we are talking about "marriage" in the legal sense not the religious sense. That being said, you can "live" with a man, a woman, both or several, without it being illegal. The question is whether we "legitimize the union" with a law allowing all the rights and privileges of just one man one woman. I guess its a tough call because if you go with a majority answer, or do it by state, you will get results that vary greatly and probably oppress the "minority" to a certain extent- from a wide open libertarian view why not be able to marry your sister? or all your sister-who are you really hurting? The argument does not end with the phrase "consenting adults." its tougher than that. |
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05/18/2011 08:56:46 AM · #68 |
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05/18/2011 09:53:57 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
All of those are byproducts of having prostitution criminalized, not the result of prostitution itself. |
exactly right. If drugs were legalized there would be no more drug pushers or selling drugs in school becuase you could just go to store to buy to the federally regulated drugs. The same with prostitution, you could just go to your local federally regulated and certified escort and get satisfied rather than picking up some street hooker.
illegal activity breeds crime, so why not just legalize it all, tax and regulate it.
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05/18/2011 12:20:01 PM · #70 |
I think it is also very important to keep in mind the opinions of the actual people involved in regards to prostitution: Many people are happy to make moral calls for these women and decide what is 'best' for them, but you will often find that this can clash distinctly with the opinions of some of the women themselves.
//www.bayswan.org/
The sex industry is a very broad and complicated creature that has only suffered from criminalization IMO. It doesnt matter what you do for a living, if you are a waitress, an adult film actress or an office temp, there are shitty people out there that will take advantage of you if dont have access to help - Why do you think unions became so popular? As an employee in a hardware store, it is legal policy that I have a safe working environment and access to appropriate safety equipment to do my job - Why should it be any different for a sex worker? |
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05/18/2011 12:26:00 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by disassociation:
I think it is also very important to keep in mind the opinions of the actual people involved in regards to prostitution: Many people are happy to make moral calls for these women and decide what is 'best' for them, but you will often find that this can clash distinctly with the opinions of some of the women themselves. |
89% of prostitutes indicate they would choose another profession if they felt they could. They already know what's 'best' for them... |
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05/18/2011 12:33:34 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by disassociation:
I think it is also very important to keep in mind the opinions of the actual people involved in regards to prostitution: Many people are happy to make moral calls for these women and decide what is 'best' for them, but you will often find that this can clash distinctly with the opinions of some of the women themselves. |
89% of prostitutes indicate they would choose another profession if they felt they could. They already know what's 'best' for them... |
98% of statistics are made up.
ETA: Also, a follow up to the obvious silliness of my reply -- Even if a large majority of current prostitutes would choose another profession, it doesn't really mean anything since the current population of prostitutes operates under the seedy underbelly of illegality and the negatives associated with that.
Of course, it's not just the legal aspect that affects things. Societal acceptance would have to change ten-fold as well, but legalizing it would be pretty much the only step we could take toward changing that. If, indeed, it is changeable. I think it is, but idealism isn't always realistic.
Message edited by author 2011-05-18 12:37:22.
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05/18/2011 12:36:00 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
89% of prostitutes indicate they would choose another profession if they felt they could. They already know what's 'best' for them... |
I imagine a similar percentage of sewage workers might choose another... etc etc. We can't all be what we want to be, that's for sure. The question is why we criminalize the occupation, and whether that can be justified. I don't see how it can be. I don't see how we can say to somebody, "Occupation X is bad for you, so if you persist in it you're going to jail."
Believe me, I've heard all the arguments, but it just seems wrong to me to criminalize sex acts between consenting adults.
R. |
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05/18/2011 12:37:28 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by disassociation:
I think it is also very important to keep in mind the opinions of the actual people involved in regards to prostitution: Many people are happy to make moral calls for these women and decide what is 'best' for them, but you will often find that this can clash distinctly with the opinions of some of the women themselves. |
89% of prostitutes indicate they would choose another profession if they felt they could. They already know what's 'best' for them... |
98% of statistics are made up. |
Farley, M., Cotton, A., Lynne, J., Zumbeck, S., Spiwak, F., Reyes, M. E., Alvarez, D., &
Sezgin, V. (2003). Prostitution in nine countries: Update on violence and posttraumatic
stress disorder. InM. Farley (Ed.), Prostitution, trafficking, and traumatic stress (pp. 33-74).
Binghamton, NY: Haworth.
If it was made up, it was made up by the professional researchers above, not me... |
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05/18/2011 12:40:37 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
89% of prostitutes indicate they would choose another profession if they felt they could. They already know what's 'best' for them... |
So the other 11% get screwed out an opportunity for safe working practices?
I'm sure there are more than 89% of deep mine workers who would choose another profession if they could - or janitors, sewerage treatment plant workers, mcdonalds fry cooks, walmart checkers, trash collectors... Im not comparing all these jobs to getting f@#$ked for a living of course (although I could tell you some stories about minimum wage jobs...), but for every 10 people that hate their jobs and are driven into it by necessity, there are a few that love it and wouldnt do anything else either. Sometimes they are well compensated for it, most times not, and in every other industry but prostitution there are legal controls in place to protect these people.
And really, if you are 100% on criminalizing prostitution, you would need to be 100% on criminalizing that thriving sex film industry as well... because how is it any different to get paid to have sex with someone if there just happens to be a camera filming it? And what about dominatrixes? Who are arguably quite firmly in the sex industry but very rarely actually perform any sex acts with their clients? |
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