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07/11/2002 06:01:15 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
Finally the boat captain has to make a decision. He says to himself "I can charge everyone and buy an engine. But I want this to be a boat for all. Hey how about if anyone who wants to ride, has to row?"
Most of the people on the boat cheer this idea.
The others, who aren't really keen on this idea have to make a choice. They can do one of three things.
Option 1: Get off the boat.
Option 2: Agree to row along with the others and help push the boat along.
Option 3: Move the oars in a circular fashion without providing any forward motion, thereby giving the illusion of rowing.
Think about this for a while, and I think you will find it obvious what they would do.
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07/11/2002 06:03:20 PM · #77 |
magnetic..I see your point and have had the same thought myself many times.
But..you are defining what "rowing" is. Maybe rowing is simply submitting a photo to many folks.
I personally don't see a problem with having everyone vote or comment on 25 photos..but then again..I have a cable modem and I vote on every photo and usually get in 10 to 25 comments if so inclined but I will admit I am not one to comment on something unless I really like it and probably wished it were mine :-) I have determined I don't comment on stuff I don't care for. I don't really like getting the negative energy juiced all up..I get enough of that when I start to rant in the forums:-)
I just don't see how you can avoid having useless votes and comments with this method is all I am really saying. And NO votes and comments is better than useless ones in my opinion.
I get my "Motivation" or "Motor" going in the forums when I need it. The comments from the voteres and stuff are just whatever comes.
But I am easy to please generally and whatever the folks here decide to do is cool by me. |
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07/11/2002 06:08:21 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
here's a little story:
there is a boat, ...
I understand your analogy, but consider if the captian said, "Everyone must sit at the oars, or swim". The freeloaders grumble, look at the shark infested waters and take their seats at the oars. Some of them even play a bit at splashing the oars around in the water. One or two even learn to row. What you have now is a boat that isn't going anywhere.
Also consider the poor person that has been rowing all along, but they get seasick and need a rest... Once they feel better, they ask if they can get back in the boat. The Captian says, "Maybe next week as long as you work hard this week." That pay-for motor boat going by will look REAL tempting.
I, for one, am not going to decide if this new requirement is a good thing or a bad thing till I see how it plays out. I just hope my worst fears are nothing but the product of a pessimistic outlook and that it all works out great, with all of us happily heading into the sunset singing "Row, row row your boat". I just hope we don't start seeing cut and paste comments that say helpful things like "Sorry, but I had to stick this worthless comment on your entry cause I want to enter next week."
I'm hoping for the best, but my experience tells me that rough waters are ahead.
Man, I REALLY love analogies! Can we do some more? |
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07/11/2002 06:09:49 PM · #79 |
<<Option 3: Move the oars in a circular fashion without providing any forward motion, thereby giving the illusion of rowing.>>
Are you watching me at work today?? ;-)
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07/11/2002 06:31:14 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by balynch:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
[i]
The others, who aren''t really keen on this idea have to make a choice. They can do one of three things.
Option 1: Get off the boat.
Option 2: Agree to row along with the others and help push the boat along.
Option 3: Move the oars in a circular fashion without providing any forward motion, thereby giving the illusion of rowing.
Think about this for a while, and I think you will find it obvious what they would do.
[/i]
i have thought about it, and what''s obvious is that my view of human nature isn''t as profoundly cynical as yours ; ).
I think most people are going to say ''hey, I''m in this interactive photography site, so I''ll play the game the way it''s meant to be played, and maybe get something out of it.'' I mean it''s just not worth the effort to fake it.
.. After all, if you actually read this thread, you will find the majority of people going ''cool idea'', not ''oh great now im going to have to fake comments'' : )
Yes, undoubtedly there will be a few such. There always are. Just as there are always people who complain when anything is asked of them. But I believe they will be the minority.
I don''t think the grumblers will try to stall the boat - they still want to get where they''re going too and not sit out there in the middle of a squall getting seasick - if they didnt, they wouldnt be hear, would they? : ].
Yes, we could cap submissions so the numbes are more manageable, but then who would get to submit? Wouldn''t everyone it rather be the people who are most likely to vote and comment? Again, isnt that why we''re all here?
I really don''t know what the site admins are going to decide. I just know that I''m a musician and there have been many peer-review music sites that required you to do 20 reviews before you could upload your own works to the site. It worked fine. No one complained - it was just how the site worked. Yeah some of the reviews were shite, but many weren''t. I still think that''s a better return than all or nothing.
Maybe the numbers and the system needs to be tweaked, ie find a better balance between burden and fair requirements, and maybe rather than jump the gun and complain, we should just see how it actually does play out. For now, since nothing is completely set in stone, let''s just look at it as a grand sociological experiment and try to have some fun. : )
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/11/2002 6:34:50 PM. |
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07/11/2002 06:32:33 PM · #81 |
Like jmsetzler said, I remember too that a couple of months ago the rules said that photgraphers where supposed to vote on all photos. So for those who are complaining now, the new rule is actually an improvement: instead of 100% we only have to vote on 95% of the photos :)
Ofcourse it takes some time to vote on all the pics, but hey, that's the price you pay for others to vote on your photo. It's only fair.
I have to pay for every minute I'm online using a slow dial-up connection. Therefor, besides taking a lot of my time, for me it's resulting in high phonebills too :(
Nevertheless, I knew that when I joined the site, and I think it's worth it!
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07/11/2002 06:37:32 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by hokie:
But..you are defining what "rowing" is. Maybe rowing is simply submitting a photo to many folks.
this totally could be, hokie.
But on the other hand, there has been a really vocal call for more commentary from the voters. every single week, there is a 'vote to comment ratio is really low'. : )
so maybe this is an attempt to see if that can be rectified ..
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07/11/2002 06:48:39 PM · #83 |
| Just about everyone on these forums has griped about the comments (or lack of them) on our entries, but do you think this will improve their quality? Now I'm getting 15-30 or so a week and I'm not sure it'll be an improvement to get two or three times as many 'nice pix' cut and paste jobs. I applaud your intentions, but you just can't force the quality of participation, only the participation itself. |
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07/11/2002 07:00:18 PM · #84 |
My hope is that a more equitable solution will be found. The current solution sounds a bit like "What have you done for me lately." I was looking through the profiles of the last submission looking for the non-voters. I didn't look through all of them, but everyone I looked at seemed to be a voter.
Maybe a better yard stick of participation would be Average votes per entry made, rather that number of votes cast last week. Those that declined to enter the fear challenge and do not wish to vote on it either should not lose credit for all of the voting and commenting they have done every other week.
Another idea : We have a list of "Favorite Photographers"... Maybe we need a list of "Deadbeat Photographers". Public ridicule works wonders sometimes.
Most importantly, I recommend calm. The admins at this site are no fools... If they see major flaws once this policy has had time to do it's thing, I'm certain they will waste no time tweeking it. Personally I think it will require some serious tweeks, but I'm not worried. I'm confident the powers that be understand the dynamics of this site far better than any of us can. |
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07/11/2002 08:16:08 PM · #85 |
| Well, I have been reading this thread long enough. It is time for my 2 cents worth. You have all touched on about every aspect of the new ruling. I am one of those individuals that really like the site and really, really appreciate the comments that have been offered on my pictures. I am also one that is a little apprehensive about how to make good comments on other's work. Let me give an example. 1) "I like it!" That may be very well all that I might have the confidence to say about a certain picture. I may not be confident enough to make comments that might not "help someone to learn". Not everyone is knowledgeable enough to pass on a criticism that will help someone in his or her photographic skills. Every time I try to give a comment that is directed to help someone improve, it reads like I am a smart-ass, and that is not my intention. I do however vote taking my perception of composition, effort, technical skills, and the ability to meet the challenge, into consideration. I have gone back and looked at my votes and they generally are very close to the average vote a photographer earns on his or her picture. I use that as an indicator of my ability to "call the shot", so to speak. I am going to vote on all of the entries, but may not make all of the comments that I would like to make (due to my lack of confidence). With that said, now I can get out there and try my damnedest to get an entry ready for the next go-round. Autool |
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07/11/2002 08:27:34 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I must be mistaken, but when I joined this site, I thought I read somewhere in the rules that photographers were required to vote on all photos. I went back and looked for it and can't find it. Am I imagining things again?
I know that the intentions on this change are good ones. Like I said earlier, before this change came about, all you heard about in the forums was complaints about how few or how lame the comments were. Now that something has been done in an attempt to improve, that, the complaining is much louder.
Maybe the future would hold a seperate challenge for those of us who want high participation from all contestants. I vote and comment on every photo every week. Some of my comments are useful and some are not.
I do know that if I did not want to comment and ther was a requirement for me to do so, I would be making a lot of 'nice pic' comments just to meet the requirement.
That was in the rules... Drew removed it a while back since the enforcement was not coded. We'll probably see a change to the rules page once this change gets finalized.
-Terry
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07/11/2002 11:23:29 PM · #87 |
| Voting really doesn't take a lot of time. Comments on the other hand (if done with heart & soul) takes quite a bit of time. |
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07/12/2002 04:34:56 AM · #88 |
Nothing to add to this excellent suggestion. Is the ''when'' of the participation more important than the participation itself?
Originally posted by myqyl:
Maybe a better yard stick of participation would be Average votes per entry made, rather that number of votes cast last week. Those that declined to enter the fear challenge and do not wish to vote on it either should not lose credit for all of the voting and commenting they have done every other week.
Oh, and as far as Magnetic''s boat, what if you were a regular on the boat, and you did lots of rowing everytime you got aboard, but then you missed the boat for a couple of weeks. Would the captian be justified in, for example, making you row to the other side, then swim back to where you started before you were allowed to ride the boat again, or should he just say, ''Hey! Welcome back!'' and give you the benefit of the doubt since you''ve pulled you weight (and more) on several previous voyages?
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/13/2002 9:23:06 AM.
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07/12/2002 10:52:23 AM · #89 |
HI EVERYONE
I'M NEW TO THE SITE. FEAR IS MY SECOND ENTRY AND MY THIRD ROUND AT VOTING. ONE OF THE THINGS I LIKE ABOUT THE SITE, IS THAT YOU
DON'T HAVE TO BE A PROFESSIONAL TO TAKE PART. I'M 45 I STARTED TAKING PICS WHEN I WAS AROUND 8. MY FARTHER WAS IN THE AIR FORCE,
AS A PHOTOGRAPHER. 50% OF WHAT I KNOW IS FROM HIS 10 YRS. WITH THE AIR FORCE, IN THIS FIELD. THE REST FROM MY OWN LOVE OF AND THIRST FOR MORE PHOTOGRAPHY
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ONE OF THE FIRST RULES HE TAUGHT ME IS THAT TO GET ONE GOOD PICTURE YOU MAY TAKE HUNDREDS BEFORE IT COMES.
I HAVE TAKEN 1000'S OF 35mm -- b&w -- color -- neg -- pos & transp. I NOW USE BOTH DIGITAL STILL AND VIDEO AND STILL USE FILM FOR WEDDINGS.
I HAVE TAKEN A LOT OF WEDDING PICS FOR FRIENDS THE MOST I HAVE ASKED FOR, IS A âYANKEE DIMEâ.
(For those that don't know what that is -- it's kiss on the cheek.).
NOW FOR THE SUBJECT AT HAND.
AS FOR COMMENTS. I'M NOT A PROFESSIONAL. MY COMMENTS FOR THE CHALLENGE WILL NOT BE CRITICAL BUT SUBJECTIVE TO THE POINT EQUAL TO THE AMOUNT THAT I LIKE THE PICTURE AND DOSE IT MEET THE CHALLENGE, IN MY EYES.
IF YOU NEED MORE TECH-- I DON'T FILL YOU WILL FIND IT ALL HERE. IT SEEMS LIKE A GOOD STARTING POINT THOUGH. AS SOME OF YOU HAVE FOUND,
THERE ARE SITES THAT CAN FULFILL THAT JOB. MOST OF THE TIME I DO NOT HAVE TIME TO EVEN COMMENT WITH âGREAT JOB.â
IN THE FEAR CHALLENGE I HAVE RECEIVED A COMMENT THAT I SHOULD HAVE INCREASED THE LIGHT BEHIND MY SUBJECT. OK TECHNICALLY
I COULD HAVE, BUT I WANTED IT TO APPEAR AS IF I WHERE OUT SIDE IN THE DARK INSTEAD OF MY BEDROOM. I TOOK 60 SOMETHING SHOTS TO GET WHAT I FELT WAS A GOOD SHOT. TO ME THE CHALLENGE WAS TO DEPICT FEAR, NOT TO BE A STUDIO PERFECT, TECHNICALLY PERFECT SHOT. I WELCOME ALL THE COMMENTS, BUT SOMETIMES YOU DO NOT SEE IT THE WAY I INTENDED IT.
NOW FOR THE VOTING.
THIS IS NOT A CONTEST. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS IS THE WAY EVERYONE WANTS THE VOTING TO BE TAKEN.
IF THIS IS TRULY A CONTEST WE WOULD ONLY BE PICKING 3 OR 5 PICTURES, AS
BEST. OUR SITE AS IT STANDS NOW, IS A GROUP OF FRIENDS RATING EACH OTHERS WORK TO THE POINT DID IT MEET THE âCHALLENGEâ. AS SUCH WE SHOULD VOTE (RATE) ALL ENTRIES. SO AS TO NOT CREATE A BIAS TOWARDS A SMALL GROUP WITHIN OUR LARGE GROUP OF FRIENDS (2000+). I BY NO MEANS CAN OFFER AN EASY SOLUTION OR CRITICIZES ANYONE FOR THEIR VIEWS. PERSONALLY I VOTE ON ALL THE ENTRY'S AND DO NOT CARE IF, I, AM IN THE TOP OR NOT. I AM JUST GLAD TO HAVE A CHANCE TO JOIN OTHERS THAT ENJOY PHOTOGRAPHY AS A HOBBY AND ART.
TO ALL WHO READS ALL OF THIS, THANKS, AS I GET TIME I MAY ADD MORE.
I ALSO ENJOY READING THE FORUMS.
UNCLEBO
PS ALL THE PICS ARE GREAT. NEVER STOP SHOOTING...
THAT GREAT SHOT IS OUT THERE !!! |
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07/12/2002 12:00:57 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by unclebo:
AS SUCH WE SHOULD VOTE (RATE) ALL ENTRIES. SO AS TO NOT CREATE A BIAS TOWARDS A SMALL GROUP WITHIN OUR LARGE GROUP OF FRIENDS (2000+).
First, if you don''t want to use both capital and lower-case letters, please use all lower case.
That being said, the fact that we have no idea who took the picture when we vote eliminates the risk of any "bias". If some people only vote on a small group of pictures maybe it is because those are the pictures that photographer finds interesting.
If someone doesn''t receive enough comments, maybe the solution is to take pictures that give others the desire to comment. I mean, heck, I only received 20 comments on my last entry and I am by no means whining and belly-aching about it. If I wanted more comments, then I should have taken a better picture.
Some of our members need to stop blaming the lack of comments on others lack of participation and start taking some responsibility for the quality of their photographs.
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/12/2002 4:11:25 PM.
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07/12/2002 12:11:19 PM · #91 |
Seriously folk,... every week, just take your picture and submit it, and then vote on all the pictures. If you feel compelled to leave a comment then do so , if not then donât. Wait for Sunday... rinse and repeat.
P.S.
Remember this is supposed to fun :)
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/12/2002 1:09:38 PM.
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07/12/2002 02:15:54 PM · #92 |
Hi Unclebo,
Welcome to the site.
I agree with you that it is important to try to vote on all the images, however, I think your concern about voting friends higher is largely unfounded. Currently a user must vote on at least 20% of the images in a challenge for his/her votes to be counted.
Keep in mind that photographs are anonymous until the challenge is over. While there are some (and I am one of them) who may share photos with friends to get feedback before the challenge, I doubt there is anyone who knows who contributed 20% of the photos. In any case, many who do still vote the photos fairly (I have given good friends low scores when warranted), and the small number who rate their friends unfairly high will (a) do so anyway and (b) not affect the scoring significantly since they are only a few out of 250+ voters.
In looking at your profile, I noticed that your average vote cast has been quite low (2.321), suggesting that you''re not happy with the quality of photography you''ve seen here. I''m especially surprised to see that with few comments to give a reason. Are there any common problems you''ve noticed in our work, and do you have any suggestions for improvement?
As a side note, you may wish to lower your caps lock key when posting. Messages posted in all caps are more difficult to read, and in the Internet world are considered the equivalent of shouting.
Once again, welcome!
-Terry
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/12/2002 2:16:16 PM.
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07/13/2002 03:14:45 PM · #93 |
voting on 95% of over 100 photos is very time consuming - wouldn't voting on the BEST 10 be better? WE get to see the thumbnails anyway. What happens if you have over 300 photos submitted that week???? You'll be lucky to get 5 submissions for the next one. Besides, the FEAR challenge seemed to bring out those who saw spiders and darkness as their only interpretation.
Evaluating each photo is a challenge in itself - don't make it so hard (95% voting) that we don't want to do this anymore. This is a great place to get comments about our photos - we learn a lot. |
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07/13/2002 03:52:46 PM · #94 |
The submission requirement will get a revision when we have time to code a better submission, but right now, it's just not an unreasonable request. For those interested, right now there are 230 users on the site who have voted on 100% of the images in the challenge (62% of users who've casted even a single vote).
Thank you for all the opinions on this -- there were definitely a lot of valid points and suggestions that we're taking into consideration.
Drew |
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07/15/2002 12:52:16 AM · #95 |
Just my two cents too. This past week I was called out of town. Between looking for full time work and covering contract jobs I didnt get back into town until Thursday. This happens to me quite often.
As to the voting, I really only feel comfortable criticizing another persons work when I have put up work of mine for them to punch holes in. Also I wasnt really interested in the fear subject and didnt think I would do it justice.
Unfortunatly I didnt notice the rule change until tonight when I went to submit. Now I could try to go though and pound out votes, as has been suggested but I dont think that is 'fair'. Also because of my personality i dont like to do a half assed job. Admittedly voting is getting to be a strain on me mentally as well. Having to look at 100+ pictures of the same subject, but again that is me.
I disagreed with the people complaining about the lack of coments and the voting. I personally had no problem with it. I dont disagree with their right to be unhappy about it. but a few years ago I figured that complaing about why someone does or doesnt do somthing is almost like complaing about the weather. If someone wants to make a comment or not thats their business.
I enjoyed the site because it was fun. Its frankly not as much fun for me anymore. As a result my participation has been dropping. I enjoy the challenge of the challenge, but its for me -- not for the vote that I take the picture.
Now I appriciate what Drew and Langdon have done by coming up with this idea. When I first arrived here some months ago it seemed much more relaxed. Now it seems a contest between people not to take a good picture that challenges yourself and to learn from it, but to take a picture that gets a good vote. Maybe its just me but that moves the enviroment from an adventure to a chore. I have enough chores. Digital photos are more of a hobby, as are other things like working with radios and helping people out.
Once again just my 2 cents take them how you will. Sorry this was so long. I tend to go on once I get started.
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07/15/2002 06:42:03 AM · #96 |
Hi all! I am new here, but felt compelled to comment on this. I am by no means an experienced photographer, but I enjoy voting on the challenges, and when I can, will submit some photos. My issue is with comments. I can certainly comment on my "gut" feeling about a photo- whether I like it or not, how much "in keeping" I feel it is with the challenge at hand, but I do not feel at all qualified to make any "technical" comments, therefore, I rarely comment. In commenting, I would want to leave constructive comments, but if I feel I cannot do that ...
I will try to leave more comments in coming challenges, but, at this time, my comments will be more or less about whether or not I just simply like the photo,(or feel anything about the photo!).
Again, I am really enjoying the site, and the photos here, and look forward to submittig.. |
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07/16/2002 04:53:53 AM · #97 |
Hmm, it's a good idea BUT not EVERYONE has a broadband internet connection! I have been voting all morning and I'm only at 68/175. :(
I don't mind spending lots of time around here, but a girl needs to work too sometimes! |
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07/16/2002 08:49:47 AM · #98 |
Regarding voting/commenting requirements.
I just have to say this. This is not a Jones Soda site where folks are just sorta throwing about 5 million photos up at a time and hoping one sticks to win a free case of soda or whatever they do over there.
This is mostly about people who have a hope of improving their digital photography skills. And these folks depend on at least someone looking at their photo and giving a 1-10 vote.
In my opinion, (the only opinion I have) if you don't have time in 7 days(even on a 56k connect) to vote on a majority of the pictures here maybe the site, as it is designed for right now, is not for you.
I am not trying to disparage Jones Soda or other fun photo sights. My sister loves digital photography as does my wife but they do it as simply documenting stuff that they do in life (birthdays, concerts, vacations etc), not as a hobby in itself.
So..let me step gently off the podium, dust a few of these tomatoes off and ease into the dark :-) |
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07/16/2002 02:09:08 PM · #99 |
been loking at this site for a while now. i think it's great . especially for someone in my situation-graduated from photography a year ago and have been sitting around doing nothing for the last 7 months.time to get off my butt! and shake the world (ha -cynic)
my question is :are entries allowed to be altered-(in graphics software programmes)?.
i'm guessing not, but have been having so much fun with software tools and the stuff that iv'e "edited is some of my best stuff ever.
g. |
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07/16/2002 02:13:04 PM · #100 |
| All this is outlined in the site rules... |
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