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11/08/2004 07:40:53 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by pcody:
This was dq'd because it went beyond a simple frame. Why is Brad's frame different in spirit than this? Actually, I think the intent of the picture was changed more so than in the above example. But, I guess what everyone is saying is they want some consistency from the sc. If they think this picture is ok, then they can't dq people in the future for doing something like dwoolridge posted as long as the picture is not changed under the border.
This would apply to open challenges also. Got some areas that you don't like and can't edit them out. No problem, add a unique border. |
this is a good point.
I don't think the 3rd place photo should be DQ'd, but we do need some sort of consistency.
But, if you want to change my photo for the 3rd place photo by Brad, go ahead! :)
Message edited by author 2004-11-08 07:45:56.
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11/08/2004 07:49:35 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by pcody:
This was dq'd because it went beyond a simple frame. Why is Brad's frame different in spirit than this? Actually, I think the intent of the picture was changed more so than in the above example. But, I guess what everyone is saying is they want some consistency from the sc. If they think this picture is ok, then they can't dq people in the future for doing something like dwoolridge posted as long as the picture is not changed under the border.
This would apply to open challenges also. Got some areas that you don't like and can't edit them out. No problem, add a unique border. |
Reading from the image submission rules:
"Borders: Your submission may include a border, but the border may not contain any text, clip art, photographs, or other artwork."
The example you cited is a pretty clear violation of those rules, whereas Brad's isn't.
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11/08/2004 07:59:50 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by colda:
Originally posted by Konador:
How is adding a border taking anything away from the photography? |
For me, and I fully accept that I may be in the minority, it's not just the border, it's the general feeling that there is a move towards effects rather than good photography.
As Jon (Imagineer) commented, this will provoke an influx of similar shot, the problem is that people are not looking to good photography for inspiration, rather they are looking for effects that look 'cool' and thus win votes. This issue is what prompted my mention of photography coming second. |
Hang on a minute here are you trying to tell me the the usuall challenge winners are ALL about good photography and NO digital effects?
Because it just isn't that way. I doubt if you will find a sigle shot in the recent challenge top ten that have not had an effect applied to them. Saturation boost, Levels adjustment, USM, Blurring etc etc.
In fact its a sad fact that unless you accept this and apply the same to your images then you may as well pack up and go home.
In the digital arena there is simply no such thing as pure photography anymore.
Submit an untouched image and it will not feature in the top 40!
The image in question is stunning without the border anyway, the border enhances it, I wish I'd thought of it.
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11/08/2004 08:00:28 AM · #29 |
| I did mention the spirit of the frame. Deannda's left the entire picture in the frame and didn't cover up any of the actual photo, while Brad's was simple and more elegant but did cover up areas thus changing the perception of the viewer. But, I'll go for multi units in a frame. I can always use an assist for basic challenges when I can't clone out anything. Just gives me more legal options and I'd be foolish to fight that. |
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11/08/2004 08:14:10 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Blackdog:
Originally posted by colda:
Originally posted by Konador:
How is adding a border taking anything away from the photography? |
For me, and I fully accept that I may be in the minority, it's not just the border, it's the general feeling that there is a move towards effects rather than good photography.
As Jon (Imagineer) commented, this will provoke an influx of similar shot, the problem is that people are not looking to good photography for inspiration, rather they are looking for effects that look 'cool' and thus win votes. This issue is what prompted my mention of photography coming second. |
Hang on a minute here are you trying to tell me the the usuall challenge winners are ALL about good photography and NO digital effects? |
No, I'm saying that the bias is moving more towards digital enhancment and away from basic good photography.
There is an appreciated need for a balance, I just feel that the balance is slipping.
People are spending more time on enhancing their photoshop skills rather than their photographic skill, I'm not suggesting for a minute that there is no place for digital enhancement, that would be simply moronic in this climate. |
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11/08/2004 08:40:32 AM · #31 |
A digital effect it may be, but it's a trivial effect to recreate with paint or film by using a mask or mat..
Anyone got any of those black card filter inserts to make your shot various different shapes/etc?
That said, I can understand the argument that more simplistic borders should be favoured. I think the emphasis should be on taking a good photo with your camera, not confusing the issue by encouraging novices to use more advanced borders when they would perhaps be better concentrating on pointing and shooting. I include myself in that bracket.
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11/08/2004 08:41:35 AM · #32 |
In that case I totally agree. I think software like PS should be used to enhance the attributes of what should be a good photograph.
If you start with a good shot you should be able to make it a very good shot.
We've all seen these images, for instance, "a white horse standing in a stream with a beautiful girl etc." Obviously made up from several different images. Yes they may have a place but they will never RE-place good basic photography.
Getting back to the theme of this thread, the third place shot in the challenge is a good photographic image, the choice of border is a matter of personal taste. It is within the rules, I don't see how anybody can conclude otherwise?
Message edited by author 2004-11-08 08:42:36.
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11/08/2004 08:49:38 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by Blackdog:
Because it just isn't that way. I doubt if you will find a sigle shot in the recent challenge top ten that have not had an effect applied to them. Saturation boost, Levels adjustment, USM, Blurring etc etc.
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This one:
I have to admit some spot editing (cloned out a roadd sign), but there are no "effects" on this one. |
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11/08/2004 09:09:12 AM · #34 |
Congratulations, (no sarcasim intended), I did make a bit of a bold statement. There will be exceptions and I think night time shots generally speaking would tend to be more 'natural' than say a daytime landscape with a dramatic sky.
But generally speaking PS effects are an accepted and expected part of the challenges on this website.
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11/08/2004 09:29:06 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by Konador:
...e301's winning photo was a full on painted window frame with lighting effects and the lot. Also, being in the 'Window Frame' challenge, we decided it was most definately a major element as without it it would have been 100% off topic and would probably not have come close to winning. |
While I agree with the SC decisions in both cases, I'm curious to know how the creative use of legal tools to make a crucial element was allowed in this example:
It was a good shot, but probably wouldn't have ribboned without the brush strokes. |
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11/08/2004 09:32:40 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by Konador:
I don't remember any threads like this when the above photo got 3rd place. The only extra rules in that challenge were that text was allowed, nothing else about frames etc. |
The context of the Motivational Poster challenge was to create a Poster, not a photograph. The context of the OFS was to create a photograph, not a poster...
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11/08/2004 09:32:58 AM · #37 |
In my mind a border is at the outer edges on an image, not running across the middle of it. What Brad has added, IMHO, is a major element any way you look at it. It dominates the impression the image makes.
We are drifting more and more toward heavily manipulated images and away from straight photography. The community depends on the SC to keep us going in the right direction, and especially to give guidance to the newcomers about dpc's emphasis on photography over digital art. Looking at the ribboners in the OFS doesn't do much to reinforce that emphasis. I think we need to find ways to stem the drift.
Edited to add definition.
border
Pronunciation: (bôr'dur) noun.
1. the part or edge of a surface or area that forms its outer boundary.
2. the line that separates one country, state, province, etc., from another; frontier line: You cannot cross the border without a visa.
3. the district or region that lies along the boundary line of another.
4. the frontier of civilization.
Message edited by author 2004-11-08 10:00:30. |
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11/08/2004 12:33:43 PM · #38 |
Hoo Boy...
First off, I want to say thanks to those willing to stick their neck out and say it as they feel. I do appreciate honesty! I took and take no offense to anyone's comments putting this submission down.
Here is the same basic shot without the frame:
As I have had numerous requests wanting to know how it was done, I will post it here as well as in the comments after the challenge:
The process was really very simple. Figure out what size of a frame is suitable for the picture.
Let's say on a 800 x 500 image, a 20 pixel wide border would suffice.
Go to View, ruler and make sure your preferences is set for pixels in the Edit, Preferences section.
Go to the top left tool (Rectangular Marquis Tool) and click it. Then zoom in on the shot until you can see the pixels in the side ruler clearly (typically 800%). Click and drag a box from the top left corner, over 20 pixels, then drag down to the bottom without letting go. That will select a 20 pixel wide section down the left side and will have the dotted lines around it. Then go to Edit, Fill and select Black. Repeat all around the four sides.
(There is a shortcut to do it all at one time - select the first section, then hold Shift, and continue dragging around
the outside framework. Each section will add to it).
Then figure out your 2 vertical divisions and drag a box down and
again fill with Black. You should now have the basic 3-pane black frame. May need to zoom in a bit more now and drag a 1 pixel wide "box" along the inside edge of each pane, using Shift again to do it all in one process.
This time when done, Edit, Fill, White or 50% grayscale. If you have a dark background, the 50% gray will look kind of funny as it becomes transparent. In that case, fill with White, then without clicking the dotted lines away yet, go to fill again and select 50% grayscale. If the gray looks too dark, you can go to Edit, Fade Fill and adjust the slider bar until you get the shade you want.
I believe this was no different than adding a black or white border with a pinstripe inside (or similar). I do agree the Triptych appearance kind of made this one pop off the page. giving it an Oriental look.
Here was an alternate from the same area, same time:
If this is such a beef with so many, I haven't submitted my original yet for proof.?
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11/08/2004 12:34:50 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Originally posted by Konador:
I don't remember any threads like this when the above photo got 3rd place. The only extra rules in that challenge were that text was allowed, nothing else about frames etc. |
The context of the Motivational Poster challenge was to create a Poster, not a photograph. The context of the OFS was to create a photograph, not a poster... |
Still the same rules tho
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11/08/2004 01:13:59 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by BradP:
If this is such a beef with so many, I haven't submitted my original yet for proof.? |
Brad,
I like you pic, I gave it a 6. I'm pretty neutral when it comes to borders and I did not mark down your pic because of the effect. Being totally honest I would have given your unframed pic a 6 at best (unless it was one of the first that came up, before numbness took effect). At the time of marking it I found that the fact of all three panes not being of equal width offputting, if they were equal it would have been an 8 (yes, this means I found the effect appealing).
I vote on the entries without personal prejudice, as the rules state, if I thought an image to be outside of the rules I should report it and vote on it as if it were legal. I did consider your pic to be legal, and it does deserve the accolade bestown upon it.
The discussion that has taken place here (from my perspective) is the influences of the future and trends within DPC, these will happen regardless as the many dictate the path ahead, just that for me I'd be happier to see more of a bias towards taking the picture rather than post processing.
I hope that you don't take the comments that have been said here personally, it's just a case that your pic was simply a focal point for a much bigger issue.
My personal preference is for black and white street photography, so maybe it's no wonder that I feel this way :)
Darren
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11/08/2004 01:22:45 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by dwoolridge:
Does this mean we'll see entries like:
or
 (ignore green square) |
From what I've read so far these borders are legal. Can a SC confirm this fact?
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11/08/2004 01:35:50 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Go to the top left tool (Rectangular Marquis Tool) and click it. |
...ouch! Sounds as if this could be painful in the wrong hands.
Back to the topic, there may be a torrent of triptychs but, as with every fad, it will pass. Time for a dedicated challenge to get it out of our systems.
Ben |
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11/08/2004 01:43:34 PM · #43 |
Brad
Please don't take offence, this thread originated from a comparison of another recent entry that was disqualified from using a technique that gave a similar outcome to your entry.
In my opinion these types of threads are a chance for members to understand how the SC will interpret the rules and to give us some insight on how we can best manage post processing in the future, it is in no way intended to disrepute anyone.
I would also like to say I admire the way you have conducted yourself during this and thank you for sharing your technique with us.
One query I have now noticed is that SC has stated that your entry was validated earlier but you stated that you have not sent the original file?
As I mentioned earlier please don̢۪t take offence, as none is intended.
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11/08/2004 01:48:41 PM · #44 |
What I meant keegbow, was that Brad had asked us prior to the challenge whether the border was legal and we validated that. We hadn't seen the original photo but knew the entry was from 1 single photo.
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11/08/2004 01:53:44 PM · #45 |
Hi Tim,
I sent the SC the shot, expaining what I did and if it was legal before the actual cut-off date, as I was going to be out of town when time ran out.
I take no offense from anyone's comments, nor thread replies, as it is how we learn and get to the bottom of things. I knew it wasn't going to please everyone the way I did it. I certainly didn't think it ranked under a 4, as it did meet the challenge. (which shot didn't meet the challenge? - LOL)
I decided not to be a martyr on this issue and just sent the original file in. It was voted as third and am proud to add yet another ribbon to the collection. Besides, I like the shot the way it came out.
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11/08/2004 01:55:42 PM · #46 |
| Thanks Ben I understand that now, but also Artyste requested a DQ and stated that it was validated bt SC, shouldn't you submit the original file when a DQ has been raised. |
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11/08/2004 02:03:37 PM · #47 |
| If the DQ was simply for the frame, then the SC had already made that decision, and the original wouldn't be needed. |
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11/08/2004 02:11:08 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Thanks Ben I understand that now, but also Artyste requested a DQ and stated that it was validated bt SC, shouldn't you submit the original file when a DQ has been raised. |
The original file is not always required when a DQ is requested. The SC look at it and if we feel we need to see the original to determine legality, we vote to request it. There are many DQ requests for which originals are never requested. |
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11/08/2004 02:14:11 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Konador:
Still the same rules tho |
This is the same type of response that was given by certain site council members over labuda's second place entry in the Window View Challenge. Yes, technically it falls within the technical details of the rules, but it was shown in labuda's case that the site council will step in when the spirit of the rules is violated. That is what I'm questioning here. The visual impact of this current example was photoshopped in. It is not there in the original. Yes borders are legal, but true borders either enhance or distract from the impact of the image. In this example, the border CREATES the impact of the image...
Edited to change librodo to labuda and to give my humblest of appologies to librodo. Thank you Laurie for pointing out my error! Gotta get more sleep! ;-)
Message edited by author 2004-11-08 14:19:08.
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11/08/2004 02:15:04 PM · #50 |
| Don't you mean labuda and not librodo? |
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