| Author | Thread |
|
|
10/21/2004 11:25:38 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Russell..
Originally posted by Gordon:
I assume his point is, that these are the people currently running your country. They essentially believe the US has to take a stronger role in leading the world, with an increased, permanent military presence around the world and a more militant doctorine of pre-emptive action.
Or put it another way, if your current administration's stated aim is to run the world, shouldn't the rest of the world have a say in it ? I'm not saying that they should, but I wonder how many voters for them, really have paid much attention to the publications of the PNAC. The project for the New American Century isn't some fringe wacko group - they are the majority of the current administration.
The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle; and that too few political leaders today are making the case for global leadership. |
I post this to show you another perspective Russell. Doubt you will be able to see it, but for your own sake and that of these boards, please try. |
I guess they are not to bad, the very first link I clicked on had this Who knows what Sen. Kerry believes? Does Sen. Kerry even know?
I actually am not familiar with the Organization, but I did find that rather amusing. |
|
|
|
10/21/2004 11:44:06 PM · #27 |
I don't think the people of Haiti would say that we've saved their asses anytime in the recent past. We supported Papa Doc, Baby Doc and the current gang of criminals there who are killing thousands of people there. I don't think the people of Chile would agree with you either, as we sponsored the overthrow of a democratically elected president, Allende, and backed a dictator in Pinochet, who brutally killed and tortured the people of Chile. The people of East Timor would equally side against your statement as the US backed Indonesia's control of that small island state. Then there's the people of Honduras and Nicaragua and El Salvador who were brutally tortured, raped and killed by the US supported Contras. Then there's the Palestinians, Iranians, etc. Need I go on?
Originally posted by Anachronite:
other countries have no say in who runs this nation... we have a say overseas because we have saved the other nations asses time and time again... I could care less who the other nations think should be president.. those nations are looking out for their interests, not ours... and it is our interests that I find the most important... if your so concerned with the other nations interests, maybe you should renounce your citizenship and go join their side... |
|
|
|
|
10/21/2004 11:48:47 PM · #28 |
I think they are a fringe wacko group, despite having control of the government. That's one of the reasons why so many republicans are unhappy with them.
Originally posted by Gordon:
The project for the New American Century isn't some fringe wacko group - they are the majority of the current administration.
|
|
|
|
|
10/21/2004 11:52:29 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I don't think the people of Haiti would say that we've saved their asses anytime in the recent past. We supported Papa Doc, Baby Doc and the current gang of criminals there who are killing thousands of people there. I don't think the people of Chile would agree with you either, as we sponsored the overthrow of a democratically elected president, Allende, and backed a dictator in Pinochet, who brutally killed and tortured the people of Chile. The people of East Timor would equally side against your statement as the US backed Indonesia's control of that small island state. Then there's the people of Honduras and Nicaragua and El Salvador who were brutally tortured, raped and killed by the US supported Contras. Then there's the Palestinians, Iranians, etc. Need I go on?
Originally posted by Anachronite:
other countries have no say in who runs this nation... we have a say overseas because we have saved the other nations asses time and time again... I could care less who the other nations think should be president.. those nations are looking out for their interests, not ours... and it is our interests that I find the most important... if your so concerned with the other nations interests, maybe you should renounce your citizenship and go join their side... |
|
So, if Bush said he was sending over troops to keep the peace in Haiti tomorrow, would you say it was a good decision? Even if it ment some US soilders would be killed?
Note: not a loaded question, I don't know enough about what is going on there to have an opinion on it.
|
|
|
|
10/22/2004 12:17:19 AM · #30 |
The Us/CIA backed coup in Haiti already happened earlier this year. Jean Bertrand Aristede was president and wanted to stay in power but the US forced his hand and he was forced out of power as the US military actually forced him on a plane to Africa and backed around 250 known thugs, criminals and killers. Haiti is now a very unsafe place to live and the people that backed Aristede's Lavalas party are being persecuted. The only reason that the US would send military intervention there now would be to provide help to the wrong people. Once again, more support for the wrong leaders of these countries, by the US.
Originally posted by louddog:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I don't think the people of Haiti would say that we've saved their asses anytime in the recent past. We supported Papa Doc, Baby Doc and the current gang of criminals there who are killing thousands of people there. I don't think the people of Chile would agree with you either, as we sponsored the overthrow of a democratically elected president, Allende, and backed a dictator in Pinochet, who brutally killed and tortured the people of Chile. The people of East Timor would equally side against your statement as the US backed Indonesia's control of that small island state. Then there's the people of Honduras and Nicaragua and El Salvador who were brutally tortured, raped and killed by the US supported Contras. Then there's the Palestinians, Iranians, etc. Need I go on?
Originally posted by Anachronite:
other countries have no say in who runs this nation... we have a say overseas because we have saved the other nations asses time and time again... I could care less who the other nations think should be president.. those nations are looking out for their interests, not ours... and it is our interests that I find the most important... if your so concerned with the other nations interests, maybe you should renounce your citizenship and go join their side... |
|
So, if Bush said he was sending over troops to keep the peace in Haiti tomorrow, would you say it was a good decision? Even if it ment some US soilders would be killed?
Note: not a loaded question, I don't know enough about what is going on there to have an opinion on it. |
|
|
|
|
10/22/2004 07:15:04 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Neat site, but I won't give my email address to any site that doesn't have a clear and accessible privacy policy.
-Terry |
That's what I have my misc@e-clark.us addie for :) any site I don't want to hear from gets it... I check it once a week when i'm bored :) |
I used to do that, but then it dawned on me... to a site that collects email addresses to sell (I'm not saying this is one of them), it doesn't matter if I actually check the address or not, only that it's valid. They get paid based on the number of addresses they sell, so giving them an address that works benefits them, whether I use the site or not. In short, I'm voting with my feet.
-Terry
|
|
|
|
10/22/2004 08:32:52 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The Us/CIA backed coup in Haiti already happened earlier this year. Jean Bertrand Aristede was president and wanted to stay in power but the US forced his hand and he was forced out of power as the US military actually forced him on a plane to Africa and backed around 250 known thugs, criminals and killers. Haiti is now a very unsafe place to live and the people that backed Aristede's Lavalas party are being persecuted. The only reason that the US would send military intervention there now would be to provide help to the wrong people. Once again, more support for the wrong leaders of these countries, by the US.
Originally posted by louddog:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I don't think the people of Haiti would say that we've saved their asses anytime in the recent past. We supported Papa Doc, Baby Doc and the current gang of criminals there who are killing thousands of people there. I don't think the people of Chile would agree with you either, as we sponsored the overthrow of a democratically elected president, Allende, and backed a dictator in Pinochet, who brutally killed and tortured the people of Chile. The people of East Timor would equally side against your statement as the US backed Indonesia's control of that small island state. Then there's the people of Honduras and Nicaragua and El Salvador who were brutally tortured, raped and killed by the US supported Contras. Then there's the Palestinians, Iranians, etc. Need I go on?
Originally posted by Anachronite:
other countries have no say in who runs this nation... we have a say overseas because we have saved the other nations asses time and time again... I could care less who the other nations think should be president.. those nations are looking out for their interests, not ours... and it is our interests that I find the most important... if your so concerned with the other nations interests, maybe you should renounce your citizenship and go join their side... |
|
So, if Bush said he was sending over troops to keep the peace in Haiti tomorrow, would you say it was a good decision? Even if it ment some US soilders would be killed?
Note: not a loaded question, I don't know enough about what is going on there to have an opinion on it. |
|
So then what should Bush do today to fix the problem?
|
|
|
|
10/22/2004 09:26:01 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I don't think the people of Haiti would say that we've saved their asses anytime in the recent past. We supported Papa Doc, Baby Doc and the current gang of criminals there who are killing thousands of people there. I don't think the people of Chile would agree with you either, as we sponsored the overthrow of a democratically elected president, Allende, and backed a dictator in Pinochet, who brutally killed and tortured the people of Chile. The people of East Timor would equally side against your statement as the US backed Indonesia's control of that small island state. Then there's the people of Honduras and Nicaragua and El Salvador who were brutally tortured, raped and killed by the US supported Contras. Then there's the Palestinians, Iranians, etc. Need I go on?
Originally posted by Anachronite:
other countries have no say in who runs this nation... we have a say overseas because we have saved the other nations asses time and time again... I could care less who the other nations think should be president.. those nations are looking out for their interests, not ours... and it is our interests that I find the most important... if your so concerned with the other nations interests, maybe you should renounce your citizenship and go join their side... |
|
please leave the Palestinians out of this. While I would need to research some of the other countries you mentioned to see if they fit into this catagory as well, the Palestinians are not freedom fighters.. they are terrorists... they sneak and hide to ambush women and children. they deserve absolutely no respect...
|
|
|
|
10/22/2004 09:32:06 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by jimmythefish:
Well, you only entered WWII after your own country was attacked and the war spread beyond European borders. Up until then commonly held opinion in the US was that it was a European issue for Europeans. Canadians had a significant role in both WWI and WWII, as well as Australians and other industrialised nations, so to argue that there was something special about American action is incorrect. Furthermore, France was strategic, so it could be argued that the liberation of France was incidental to the goal of defeating the Axis nations, an Allied rather than an American-only effort. In terms of suffering for the war, Britain, for example, was gutted heart and soul for the sake of winning that war, and arguably still hasn't recovered. Similarly, while Canadians liberated Holland it wasn't a benevolent action. Was there anything special about Holland? Do we really like gouda and wooden shoes? No...it was strategic.
Originally posted by Anachronite:
Originally posted by louddog:
Don't forget that since france saved our ass, we saved their ass and spilled a lot of blood doing so. I think the debt is paid. We don't owe France anything. |
France didn;t save our asses. Most historians agree while they did help the revolutionary war, we would have eventually won it without them... and they by no means were acting out of benevolence.. they were here simply to spite the british.. and for no other reason |
|
jimmy you've clearly missed the point. Sure France was in a stratetic position... we would have been stupid not to use strategy. The point is we went to Europe to save them from the Nazi threat and Hitler's ruthless dictatorship, while France came here only to spite the British, not to save anyone or crush a ruthless dictator
|
|
|
|
10/22/2004 09:34:49 AM · #35 |
The French also gave us that All-American symbol, the Statue of Liberty, although there seemed to be some problems getting the job finished on our end ...
"... Construction on Lady Liberty began in 1875 in France. Supporters on both sides of the Atlantic struggled to raise funds for the statue's creation and to build the pedestal in New York. Congress authorized use of Bedloe's Island in New York Harbor for the site of the statue, but private financing had to be secured to construct the base. The lack of available funds to build the base actually slowed the pace of work on the statue in France. |
|
|
|
10/22/2004 09:38:31 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by louddog:
So, if Bush said he was sending over troops to keep the peace in Haiti tomorrow, would you say it was a good decision? Even if it ment some US soilders would be killed?
Note: not a loaded question, I don't know enough about what is going on there to have an opinion on it. |
[/quote]
So then what should Bush do today to fix the problem? [/quote]
I don't know what Bush should do, other than resign the presidency. The point being that there is a long line of succession of leaders in Haiti that the US backed and who were brutal to the people of that country. We need to start minding our own business and stop medling (sp?) in the affairs of other countries. |
|
|
|
10/22/2004 09:46:35 PM · #37 |
OMG hahahahahahahah.
Originally posted by Anachronite:
other countries have no say in who runs this nation... we have a say overseas because we have saved the other nations asses time and time again... I could care less who the other nations think should be president.. those nations are looking out for their interests, not ours... and it is our interests that I find the most important... if your so concerned with the other nations interests, maybe you should renounce your citizenship and go join their side... |
|
|
|
|
10/22/2004 10:16:09 PM · #38 |
bottom line to me is that most countries in the world would be nothing if it wasn't for the international community, and vice versa. it's easy to be mad at certain countries for outright condemning the war after supporting so many resolutions against a guy like saddam in a world stage like the un, but the fact is the world would be worse off without those countries because that's what makes the world great.
i just hate the mass media which controls the minds of most people in the world |
|
|
|
10/22/2004 11:22:42 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I don't think the people of Chile would agree with you either, as we sponsored the overthrow of a democratically elected president, Allende, and backed a dictator in Pinochet, who brutally killed and tortured the people of Chile. |
Not all the people... just the communists. Whic aren't really people. More like, well, blacklistees. And I think the real injustice was done to my buddy Augusto. He's takin' holiday in the UK and they put him under house arrest? Que Injustico! Besides, El Chile would have hit rock bottom and kept on drilling if Salvador had stayed in power.
Viva Augusto! Augusto era el salvador del chile!
heh.
I hope you guys all know I'm joking. Lighten up, please. This is just the opinion of a 16 year old, so you'll all probably take it with less than a grain of salt, regardless, but personally I'm proud of my president. I wouldn't have it any other way. I will be severly distraught if Kerry wins the election. I intend to enter the armed forces once I'm of age. The power behind the president, Dick Cheney, said it best when he stated "It's easy to take freedom for granted when you've never had it taken from you." |
|
|
|
10/22/2004 11:32:26 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The French also gave us that All-American symbol, the Statue of Liberty, although there seemed to be some problems getting the job finished on our end ...
"... Construction on Lady Liberty began in 1875 in France. Supporters on both sides of the Atlantic struggled to raise funds for the statue's creation and to build the pedestal in New York. Congress authorized use of Bedloe's Island in New York Harbor for the site of the statue, but private financing had to be secured to construct the base. The lack of available funds to build the base actually slowed the pace of work on the statue in France. |
Yep they gave us a statue. Ooooooo! 1 brownie point for France.
My grandfather served in WWII in France. Many of his friends died fighting to help liberate France. They GAVE THEIR LIVES!
One of the saddest things I have ever seen was my 82 old Grandfather crying when he saw the news reports not long ago of the French citizens spray painting the tombstones and dancing on the graves of the American and British soldiers that gave their lives defending France and the rest of Europe.
You know why all the roads in France are lined with trees Paul? So the German Army can walk in the shade.
|
|
|
|
10/23/2004 12:36:05 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
My grandfather served in WWII in France. Many of his friends died fighting to help liberate France. They GAVE THEIR LIVES!
One of the saddest things I have ever seen was my 82 old Grandfather crying when he saw the news reports not long ago of the French citizens spray painting the tombstones and dancing on the graves of the American and British soldiers that gave their lives defending France and the rest of Europe.
|
I'll bet your 82 y/o grandfather would really have a coniption if he knew just how much Hitler was supported and funded by American industrialists and that it's well likely that Hitler would never have been able to develop Germany's war machine if it weren't for that support. It may even be that WWII would never have happened if it weren't for the American industrialists. |
|
|
|
10/23/2004 12:48:49 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I'll bet your 82 y/o grandfather would really have a coniption if he knew just how much Hitler was supported and funded by American industrialists and that it's well likely that Hitler would never have been able to develop Germany's war machine if it weren't for that support. It may even be that WWII would never have happened if it weren't for the American industrialists. |
Ya right, America is to blame for WWII. What crap this is. This is the other end of riduculous spectrum of garbage I'm talking about when I say that you need to listen to things that make sense.
It's basically the same thing as saying we blame the gun and the manufacturer of the gun for killing that person and not the person who actually used the gun.
It's pure biased CRAP.
|
|
|
|
10/23/2004 09:36:08 AM · #43 |
Olyuzi, how old are you? You sound like my wife's sister who while at BC college chuged down every bit of the liberal cool-aid on campus. Do you ever really think about what you type before you write it? I mean, I know I'm mean and crude some times, but American industrialists are to blame for Hitler?
Do you know anything about history? Or do you just parse out all the relevent and important information on your path to ant-americanism? |
|
|
|
10/25/2004 03:51:32 PM · #44 |
I have proudly cast a French vote for Bush. :)
(Which shows just how meaningless that site is.) |
|
|
|
10/28/2004 08:03:52 AM · #45 |
I guess Dubya doesn't want the Australian (pseudo) vote. He blocked them from his campaign website. //www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11211441%255E401,00.html
|
|
|
|
10/28/2004 08:09:58 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
Actualy, we had entered the war much sooner than that, but it was by means of sending weapons, food and supplies... TONS of it...
Yes we waited too long, and you know what, with another democratic presidend in office, we would wait too long again. Just think about how the war and the world today would be different if we didn't wait to be forced into war? For too long the rest of the world has found EVERY action fo the United States unacceptable.
I don't care if the world likes us, but I'd like some f**king respect, god knows we deserve it just as much or more than every other country. |
You would like some respect??? Excuse me while I piss myself laughing
|
|
|
|
10/28/2004 08:25:43 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
My grandfather served in WWII in France. Many of his friends died fighting to help liberate France. They GAVE THEIR LIVES!
One of the saddest things I have ever seen was my 82 old Grandfather crying when he saw the news reports not long ago of the French citizens spray painting the tombstones and dancing on the graves of the American and British soldiers that gave their lives defending France and the rest of Europe.
|
I'll bet your 82 y/o grandfather would really have a coniption if he knew just how much Hitler was supported and funded by American industrialists and that it's well likely that Hitler would never have been able to develop Germany's war machine if it weren't for that support. It may even be that WWII would never have happened if it weren't for the American industrialists. |
Well it appears, then, that WWII in France was their OWN fault, because if it weren't for France aiding the American Colonies during the revolutionary war, America wouldn't have grown so quickly and there wouldn't have been American Industrialists to support and fund Hitler.
Sorry, but your frantic search for any reason to blame the U.S. for everything is just laughable. |
|
|
|
10/28/2004 09:14:29 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
My grandfather served in WWII in France. Many of his friends died fighting to help liberate France. They GAVE THEIR LIVES!
One of the saddest things I have ever seen was my 82 old Grandfather crying when he saw the news reports not long ago of the French citizens spray painting the tombstones and dancing on the graves of the American and British soldiers that gave their lives defending France and the rest of Europe.
|
I'll bet your 82 y/o grandfather would really have a coniption if he knew just how much Hitler was supported and funded by American industrialists and that it's well likely that Hitler would never have been able to develop Germany's war machine if it weren't for that support. It may even be that WWII would never have happened if it weren't for the American industrialists. |
As I understand it Britain, France, et al were quite happy for Germany to rebuild its armed forces after the first 'world' war, the reason being that they perceived the threat from communist Russia to be greater, the Germans were first in line to meet any advancing forces.
I'm British (back to at least the 8th C) and I'm proud of it, but unlike some posters I'm not blinkered to the past, present and future shortcomings of my country.
|
|
|
|
10/29/2004 12:45:30 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
My grandfather served in WWII in France. Many of his friends died fighting to help liberate France. They GAVE THEIR LIVES!
One of the saddest things I have ever seen was my 82 old Grandfather crying when he saw the news reports not long ago of the French citizens spray painting the tombstones and dancing on the graves of the American and British soldiers that gave their lives defending France and the rest of Europe.
|
I'll bet your 82 y/o grandfather would really have a coniption if he knew just how much Hitler was supported and funded by American industrialists and that it's well likely that Hitler would never have been able to develop Germany's war machine if it weren't for that support. It may even be that WWII would never have happened if it weren't for the American industrialists. |
Well it appears, then, that WWII in France was their OWN fault, because if it weren't for France aiding the American Colonies during the revolutionary war, America wouldn't have grown so quickly and there wouldn't have been American Industrialists to support and fund Hitler.
Sorry, but your frantic search for any reason to blame the U.S. for everything is just laughable. |
What seems curious is your inability to distinguish between (corrupt) American industrialists and America the country. Actually, that seems about par for a neoconservative these days. Never mind. ;) |
|
|
|
10/29/2004 12:52:57 AM · #50 |
This thread has degenerated into a series of personal attacks and has therefore outlived its usefulness.
|
|
