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09/04/2004 01:56:07 PM · #51 |
I don't think his suggesting the obvious VALUE(to all of us) of the top ribbon winners means he cares more about them AND doesn't care about the rest of us. This site isn't about prestige. It is not exclusive. If you pay the slight fee for membership, and strive to take good pictures, it is POSSIBLE for anyone to take part in this challenge in the future. And in the meantime, you get to see MORE pictures(a major plus)!!
As for the Special Veterans Reprise Challenge, I think it's a great idea! The implementation of such a challenge is going to take some time though(coding, rules, especially after this).
Just several days ago, there was a thread where a good number of people were wondering when something new would come along to this site to keep it interesting(color scheme changes etc.). And here it is.
The challenge is obviously NOT meant to offend or shame those of us who can't participate. I personally want to see how it turns out and then maybe I can offer a suggestion/opinion. As for the term Masters, I can see why it could be offensive to those who consistently do very well in challenges but have not received 2 ribbons. So maybe the multi-ribbonaire challenge or the dpc idol challenge could replace the name. :D |
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09/04/2004 02:00:48 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by hyphaefungi:
...As for the term Masters, I can see why it could be offensive to those who consistently do very well in challenges but have not received 2 ribbons. So maybe the multi-ribbonaire challenge or the dpc idol challenge could replace the name. :D |
Well, not quite offensive, but a little presumptious perhaps...
How about Laureates?
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09/04/2004 02:07:36 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
How about Laureates? |
Not another thread about laurielblack again ...! |
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09/04/2004 02:31:52 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
How about Laureates? |
Not another thread about laurielblack again ...! |
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09/04/2004 02:34:42 PM · #55 |
Jeez! I just got back on and can not believe this argument is still going on. Relax! Let's wait for the end of the challenge and then suggest modification and / or changes. Many of the comments are well meaning but without real data to see what actually happens is, as yet, of little value.
I can only speak for myself but I'm here to learn. Anything to challenge the better photographers on this site and keep them around is Ok with me. I̢۪m sure that some of the suggestions for change will prove out to be of value but let̢۪s give it a chance first. |
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09/04/2004 02:35:35 PM · #56 |
I think the whole thing is an excellent idea.
What a great thing to strive for. To improve your photography to be able to qualify for and participate with this group.
I hope there are more Master's Challenges....and I've got a new goal to aim for. Can't wait til I get another ribbon to be in on the fun.
Bongo |
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09/04/2004 02:53:42 PM · #57 |
I think maybe it should have been basic editing, test the photographic abilities more than photoshop abilities ?
Just a thought :)
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09/04/2004 02:55:27 PM · #58 |
I must admit, I like the idea of a competition between the top photographers..just don`t think that because you happen to be sitting with 2 or 3 ribbons you should qualify over others who have been consistently unlucky.
I could certainly name plenty of NON qualifiers for this challenge who are far more worthy of the "Masters" title than I.
I much preferred the idea of "heats" that were mentioned earlier in the debate.That way no-one is excluded and the competition will end up getting tighter and tighter.. and giving all the top photographers a chance to compete should ensure that the final round is truly a Masters challenge.
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09/04/2004 02:57:34 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by peecee:
I think maybe it should have been basic editing, test the photographic abilities more than photoshop abilities ?
Just a thought :) |
Photoshop abilities are a major part of the overall abilities of a serious digital photographer.
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09/04/2004 03:00:01 PM · #60 |
I deserved that John,
Absolutely true, I only posted it tongue in cheek.
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09/04/2004 03:11:34 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Photoshop abilities are a major part of the overall abilities of a serious digital photographer. |
Depends on application.. Sports and PJ being good examples of where little editing will be done.
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09/04/2004 03:20:09 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Photoshop abilities are a major part of the overall abilities of a serious digital photographer. |
Depends on application.. Sports and PJ being good examples of where little editing will be done. |
Not really true. I got to see this first hand this week as I have taken a part time 'stringer' position with the local newspaper. I spent a good bit of time editing and watching photos being editied for publication in the sports section. Our basic editing rules here would not allow this type of editing to be done. When you say limited editing, it is true in the aspect that we didn't add any elements to the photos that weren't there already. We did a good bit of dodging and burning, which are illegal in our basic edit rules. I saw elements being cloned out of photos.
The whole 'photojournalism' editing issues are quite complex. I would not hesitate to say that a majority of journalism images you see are edited beyond our 'basic editing rules' here.
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09/04/2004 03:35:31 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
The whole 'photojournalism' editing issues are quite complex. I would not hesitate to say that a majority of journalism images you see are edited beyond our 'basic editing rules' here. |
If that's the case then I'm both concerned by PJ ethics, and also stand corrected. :-)
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09/04/2004 04:03:42 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
The whole 'photojournalism' editing issues are quite complex. I would not hesitate to say that a majority of journalism images you see are edited beyond our 'basic editing rules' here. |
If that's the case then I'm both concerned by PJ ethics, and also stand corrected. :-) |
Creating a new thread on this issue.....
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09/04/2004 04:05:04 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
The whole 'photojournalism' editing issues are quite complex. I would not hesitate to say that a majority of journalism images you see are edited beyond our 'basic editing rules' here. |
Are you taking this from the context of working for the local newspaper or do you have other references?
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09/04/2004 04:12:08 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I agree with the premise of not allowing the entire membership to vote. I do believe it will discourage any additional creativity in techqnique and presentation from the participants in the challenge. The reasons for this have already been stated here... |
I guess my only real issue with this whole thing is that why would the
"best" on this site be discouraged to try to be creative and try new techqniques in any of the other challenges. Would they be sad if they didn't score well because they tried something different? Would they be scared to have their average score lowered? I guess I just don't understand why we need a "special" challenge for the "masters" just so they can try something different. Try something different in any of the challenges. |
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09/04/2004 04:13:18 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Master photographer is a term commonly used outside of this site to refer to very talented or skilled photographers, and indeed to people of high skill in many areas. There's no pompousness attached to the word in any dictionary I can find. |
Sorry, but "pompous" is a perfectly reasonable connotation to be drawn from the word "master" as used here, and it is used as a title precisely to differentiate the holders from the less-skilled "rabble."
That doesn't make it unreasonable to use in this context, but I believe it was introduced in such a way as to maximize the negative rhetorical effect, and I would have suggested other language had I been part of the development process.
DICTIONARY, n. A malevolent literary device for cramping the growth of a language and making it hard and inelastic. This dictionary, however, is a most useful work.
Ambrose Bierce (1842 - 1914), The Devil's Dictionary |
Oh, it's all clear now, it's an elite challenge, us the 'rabble' aren't good enough for this challenge!
Our money to pay for membership is okay, but our limited abilities compared with the 'Hero Ribbon Winners' isn't good enough.
That's cool.
What a bloody insult! Who the hell are you to call us 'RABBLE'!! |
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09/04/2004 04:17:42 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by G4Ds:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I agree with the premise of not allowing the entire membership to vote. I do believe it will discourage any additional creativity in techqnique and presentation from the participants in the challenge. The reasons for this have already been stated here... |
I guess my only real issue with this whole thing is that why would the
"best" on this site be discouraged to try to be creative and try new techqniques in any of the other challenges. Would they be sad if they didn't score well because they tried something different? Would they be scared to have their average score lowered? I guess I just don't understand why we need a "special" challenge for the "masters" just so they can try something different. Try something different in any of the challenges. |
I don't think you will see anything 'different' in this challenge. If you want to know the reasoning behind why this challenge has been created, you may want to go back to the original post in this thread or discuss it directly with those who created it. I had no role in this so I don't have your answers. All I have is my own perceptions of what the results MAY look like.
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09/04/2004 04:24:55 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by G4Ds:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I agree with the premise of not allowing the entire membership to vote. I do believe it will discourage any additional creativity in techqnique and presentation from the participants in the challenge. The reasons for this have already been stated here... |
I guess my only real issue with this whole thing is that why would the
"best" on this site be discouraged to try to be creative and try new techqniques in any of the other challenges. Would they be sad if they didn't score well because they tried something different? Would they be scared to have their average score lowered? I guess I just don't understand why we need a "special" challenge for the "masters" just so they can try something different. Try something different in any of the challenges. |
I don't think you will see anything 'different' in this challenge. If you want to know the reasoning behind why this challenge has been created, you may want to go back to the original post in this thread or discuss it directly with those who created it. I had no role in this so I don't have your answers. All I have is my own perceptions of what the results MAY look like. |
Sorry setzler. I wasn't trying to attack you or anything. I just wonder if some of the major ribbon winners do hold back on their submissions because it is different from what they normally do. |
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09/04/2004 04:30:55 PM · #70 |
| I am all for adding the masters. I would also like to see an opposite challenge closed to those who have won 3 ribbons or more, judged by all, or by only those who have won 3 ribbons or more. After all of the to do about this one, I am sure no additional new challenges will be introduced soon, but I just wanted to get the suggestion out there. |
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09/04/2004 05:11:50 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by srikant:
I guess what masters are interested in is the opinion of other masters. How other ribboners think about their pictures and how it is rated by other masters.
In general, what we are looking for is, how a picture appeals to other masters. Then my suggestion is, why not open a category of new ribbon? called "Masters' Ribbon" (or some other color ribbon) which considers the votes of only masters. This will solve many problems.
a) Every one will get a chance to know how masters rank your picture.
b) Masters will have to create pictures which appeal to both general voters and masters as well and thus they have to be more creative.
c)People arguing against "Master's challenge" are happy becasue there iss no discremination between masters and them.
d) In the end if it turns out that the master's ribbon winner is mostly
from top 3 general pictures, it will be clear that masters don't vote
any different from general voters then there is no need for either
master's ribbon or master's challenge. |
Truly inspired idea. |
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09/04/2004 05:15:00 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by G4Ds:
Sorry setzler. I wasn't trying to attack you or anything. I just wonder if some of the major ribbon winners do hold back on their submissions because it is different from what they normally do. |
Then, for me, the answer is yes. I don't submit nearly as much as I used to. I also don't go out and shoot specifically for any challenges. My submissions since about December or so have been images that I have shot during the challenge week that fit in some way or another. My scores also reflect this lack of specific effort towards the challenge.
My own personal goals in photography have gone way beond the 'challenge'. I don't spend any time at all thinking about the challenge topics offered here. The reason I choose to 'behave' this way is because I don't believe the challenges offer me any opportunity for growth. I could shoot for challenges and consistently score well if I chose to, and I have in the past. I can't expand my creativity and ability to 'think outside the box' here anymore. Getting creative with an interpretation of a challenge here is a waste of time if you are playing for score. I don't like the idea of shooting 'pretty pictures' as much as I used to, which is what it takes to do well here. My current goals in photography are 'human interest' and 'emotion'. My participation here at DPC in the past has taught me how to be technically proficient and how to self-critique my work.
Everything that happens in challenges here, except for the free study challenges, is 'different from what I normally do' at this point. I would not even score well in any given free study challenge in most cases because of the methods and subjects I choose to use these days :)
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09/04/2004 05:28:43 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Terry, you are still sending the same message- that you care more about the elite, as measured by success in challenges, than you do about the masses; that you think those 100 or so are the most important to retain. I'm not sure I agree with that. How about expressing your opinion of the Challenge Suggestion I made last night please. Do you like the idea? or dislike it? Do you think it is workable? Want to propose any modifications? It's in a thread called Special Veterans Reprise Challenge. I'd really like to know your reaction. |
That is the exact opposite of what I am saying. I am saying that by giving the best photographers here an incentive to stick around, we as a community all benefit through continued learning. If this challenge were being added at the expense of the rest of the community, I might think you had a point. As it is, nothing has been taken away from anyone.
I have not yet read the thread on your challenge suggestion. I will try to do so tonight and will comment then. In the meantime, I am at a friend's apartment and am about to go out and shoot for Travel Guides. With any luck, I'll get one ribbon closer to being able to enter a Masters Challenge myself!
-Terry
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09/04/2004 05:32:31 PM · #74 |
| Attica!! Attica!! Attica!! |
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09/04/2004 05:43:28 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
... I am saying that by giving the best photographers here an incentive to stick around, we as a community all benefit through continued learning. |
A couple of things: this definitely does make the assumption that ribboners are 'better' than others.
I'd also add that if those who've won ribbons really value the judgement of their peers then let only the Holy Masters vote on this challenge - it makes much more sense, since we lesser mortals will only dilute the gene pool. :D
I really do think the title Masters has to change. In my experience in advertising the golden rule is that you don't insult your audience. This has clearly happened already and, while DPC is not advertising here, it does have a paying audience. One day I may win two ribbons, but I certainly would not feel comfortable being labelled a Master and wouldn't enter this challenge unless it changed. |
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