Troll Voting - DPChallenge Forums

08/11/2004 12:08:49 PM · #1

Something has to be done about this troll voting problem. I know there are ten page rants on this problem. Did anything get solved?

What did the site council deside?

pitsaman

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

08/11/2004 12:11:06 PM · #2

Simple solution: If you submit photo - you can't vote !

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

08/11/2004 12:19:32 PM · #3

Is that a solution that people were ok with?

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

08/11/2004 12:23:44 PM · #4

I self impose it now when I'm scoring lower then I expected. I don't want how I'm doing to affect how I'm voting.

Marjo

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

08/11/2004 12:29:13 PM · #5

Originally posted by pitsaman:

Simple solution: If you submit photo - you can't vote !

That does seem like a simple solution.
Maybe we could do a trial run in one of the speed challenges.

Ecce_Signum

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

08/11/2004 12:31:32 PM · #6

Not so sure submission = no vote is the best way. Why not throw away (say)the lowest and highest 5% of votes?

rich

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

08/11/2004 12:34:33 PM · #7

Originally posted by pitsaman:

Simple solution: If you submit photo - you can't vote !

Voter turn-out would be even lower with this system, though.

In the recent Macro IV challnge, there were 249 entries and only 184 votes were cast for the winning image. If you subtracted all votes from people who submitted, I wonder how many that would leave?

Edit - and I think a lot of good comments and honest voters would be turned away as well.

Message edited by author 2004-08-11 12:36:46.

graphicfunk

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

08/11/2004 12:38:20 PM · #8

My solution to this problem is simple. In other words the site gets splits into two groups. Each group gets a different challenge. Example first group gets "Iron" and second "Silver"

Now the iron or silver are not allowed to vote in their own category.
In short, the iron votes on the silver and vice versa.

This was met with the objection that it would reduce the overall votes. My contention is that the only way to eliminate the vested interest is by members not voting on their own category.

But hey, this would be considered a major change and once systems are used for a while, they tend to avoid change.

geewhy

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

08/11/2004 12:40:26 PM · #9

Originally posted by Ecce Signum:

Not so sure submission = no vote is the best way. Why not throw away (say)the lowest and highest 5% of votes?

Why not root these people out and throw THEM away ?
It surely can`t be that hard to identify the regular culprits.We seem to get really steamed up about PM`ing during challenges and the current policy of posting outtakes before and during challenges..because of the POTENTIAL harm that it can do...whereas these people are able to inflict ACTUAL harm every challenge..with next to no comeback...or so it would appear.

emorgan49

Olympus E-5

Olympus 50mm f/1.8 MF Normal Zuiko

08/11/2004 04:01:48 PM · #10

Since the score is a relative value and not an absolute one, and the trolls vote like trolls on all the pictures, seems about evenly, don't they cancel themselves out? I think we can ignore both the trolls and any percieved problem that they create.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

08/11/2004 04:07:12 PM · #11

is there actually any evidence of this 'troll' voting in the final results ?

I mean there are a few images every now and then that get much higher votes than I would expect, and there are a few that get a few lower images, but isn't that largely a matter of taste ?

I think any vote with a deviation of more than plus or minus one of what I would vote, is obviously bananas and someone trolling. Those votes should obviously be removed. - silly - yes ?

So change that plus or minus one to plus or minus 5 - and you get what is being claimed in this thread.

People are allowed to disagree with you and not be trolling. There have been cases of winning images I find derivative, unoriginal and downright ugly. There have been wonderful images in last place. I don't accuse all the people who voted it low for being a troll, just because they don't happen to agree with what I think of as wonderful.

I find these threads kind of weird.

Lets get rid of anyone who is obviously display indpendant thought, different to the common groupthink. Yes - that's a great way to improve the general creativity and free thinking.

Message edited by author 2004-08-11 16:07:55.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/11/2004 04:26:32 PM · #12

Originally posted by Gordon:

Lets get rid of anyone who is obviously display indpendant thought, different to the common groupthink. Yes - that's a great way to improve the general creativity and free thinking.

Funny, I think exactly the same thing ... : )

graphicfunk

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

08/11/2004 04:30:20 PM · #13

If it were that simple I would agree. The problem is that trollers do not smack all images. It goes something like this. They have an entry and they troll those images which they feel will beat them. The reason I say this, is that a voter registered me a one. Was even kind to leave a comment. After the event, I see this member giving high praise and promising a seven to an image that ended near the bottom. Of course, you can argue that maybe he dealt them also a one, but he has nothing to lose. Remember, he has to offset his marks to avoid having 2.1 voting average.

You see, we have all been around the block and we all pretty well know what is right and wrong. One popular troller puts it this way, "I vote my one's and two and that is my business and then I give images that are to my taste 7's. I do not vote with the pack."

Well, decypher this and it means. I hit down the good images and bring up the others. Because when you say that you do not vote with the pack, you do not know what the pack is voting ! What he means is that he does not vote fair on good images.

The problem is that none of us were born yesterday...you can argue subjectivity, but no one can justify the ones' and twos. We have all seen superp images get hammered with these ones' and twos'. Consider a top notch lit photo in good focus and good composition...well even those who may hate the subject will at least give a begrudging 4 or a 5.

It is simple trollers are protecting their interest by attacking images which may beat them. There is a simple way to prove this..their records are permanent with the DPC archives. But then, this will tend to develop a bad relationship. Instead, I say, eliminate the vested interest and you solve the problem.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

08/11/2004 04:30:28 PM · #14

Ironically, I find myself agreeing with Gordon. "A 2 on Jacko's macro? Gotta be a troll!" Not necessarily. Maybe they didn't like it. There is no accounting for taste.

True trolls, those that vote all ones or twos (or even 10s) are taken care of with the "script" at the end of the voting.

To "identify" trolls then "get rid of them" seems very much like a witch hunt and not a lot of fun.

One thing I like about this site is that I can get a variety of feedback on my pictures. I have found that in "real" life, my pictures garner the same results and reactions as they do on dpc. Imagine that. The "troll" votes then, also give me an idea of what at least part of the population thinks of my shots. Whether I like it or not.

geewhy

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

08/11/2004 04:32:15 PM · #15

Originally posted by Gordon:

I don`t think that`s what the purpose of this thread is and it`s certainly not at all what I`m talking about here Gordon...There is an algorithm in place to deal with "unusual" voting patterns.I wouldn`t think that it was necessary to implement something like this unless it was an accepted fact that "Troll" behaviour happens.
As far as I`m aware it would not affect anyone voting in the manner you are describing but does target people who are "disrupting" the system for whatever reason they see fit.I know that there is evidence for this happening because I have had votes removed from some of my submissions in the past and my final score has increased as a result. It happened on my very first submission and I queried it with the admin because I hadn`t a clue what was going on. That is when I first became aware of the algorithm and its purpose.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/11/2004 04:45:51 PM · #16

Originally posted by geewhy:

...There is an algorithm in place to deal with "unusual" voting patterns.I wouldn`t think that it was necessary to implement something like this unless it was an accepted fact that "Troll" behaviour happens.

The site creators were aware that these abuses can happen, and (AFAIK) had the vote-screening process in place at the site's inception, to prevent such behavior here, and not in response to it.

Since none of us knows how it works, there's no way to say whether or not it addresses your specific concerns, but it might. Since I'd guess that about 90% of the membership would agree that the final rankings for each challenge are about 90% accurate, I'd say the effect of any "vote manipulating" is minimal.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

08/11/2004 04:51:33 PM · #17

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

you can argue subjectivity, but no one can justify the ones' and twos.

Of course you can justify them. The scale runs from 1 to 10.

You are supposed to use the whole scale - otherwise it would run from 5 to 10. Many images, in my own, personal, non-trolling opinion, fall into the 'bad' category that 1 represents. That is my own, personal view of what 'bad' is. Not 'worst in history' or 'so bad that I've gone blind' - just 'bad'. In many cases, bad to me is 'I would have deleted this if I'd taken it' certainly a 2 or 3 is one that I personally wouldn't have bothered opening in photoshop, never mind submitting to a competition site for consideration or feedback.

In most cases a picture I'd score a 4 or 5 is one that I consider that I wouldn't have submited, by my own personal standards.

My voting average is 4.6. There are a lot of pictures that I see that I personally would not have bothered to submit.

I would happily defend the accusation that I am a troll.

I give out plenty of high scores to images that end up way down the final ranking. I do this because those are images that I like, or they inspire me, or they demonstrate some much needed spark of inspiration or creativity. They may not be perfectly executed. They may not be sharp. They just happen to resonate with me. Many of the perfectly shot, dull, (in my opinion), brightly happily coloured shots leave me deathly bored - and I, rightly so, vote them very low.

I am not a troll.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

08/11/2004 05:11:52 PM · #18

My concern is that there are people with multiple accounts who vote several times for themselves.

When you look through the pics in order there are some pics that totally suck in comparison to the ten pics that surround it on either side.

I would hate to call out some of those pics but they are in there. You've seen 'em.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

08/11/2004 05:15:09 PM · #19

Originally posted by JoelHSmith:

Don't let people that have never entered a challenge vote.

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

08/11/2004 05:30:07 PM · #20

Originally posted by louddog:

Don't let people that have never entered a challenge vote.

This has the potential to encourage people to submit some "junk" snapshot just to be able to vote.

If they want to vote on their own picture 10 times, they'll find a way to do it. At least in the member challenges, that would cost them $250/year... =]

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/11/2004 05:32:15 PM · #21

Originally posted by JoelHSmith:

My concern is that there are people with multiple accounts who vote several times for themselves.

It is an issue frequently raised, and we have always been told by the admins that it is addressed and under control.

If you have specific, personal knowledge of someone violating the site TOS, please contact the admins using the link under the Help menu.

Otherwise, please do not speculate or throw around baseless accusations in public -- it casts an unwarranted and completely unfair cloud over every voter, and the process of the site itself.

While you're at it, maybe search the forums and read the history of this issue here ... it's all there waiting for you.