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08/06/2004 09:30:31 AM · #1 |
I cannot believe things like this still happen! Surely the 'intelligent' Texas education board would look at statistics and history and realise that people do not always follow what they are taught in school to the extent they want??
Why??
Kids are going to have sex, underage pregnancies are on the rise and so are STD's. If you tell kids not to, they still will, we surely know this by now?? I find attitudes like this arrogant and damaging.
What do you think? |
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08/06/2004 09:39:56 AM · #2 |
I think that people who have sex under the age of consent are obviously terrorists - they are actively attempting to undermine the fabric of American society and are an abomination in God's eyes.
More seriously, I think abstinence isn't a bad message to teach. Certainly more people could do with waiting until they are emotionally mature enough to enter into a physical relationship. Though at the same time I think it is stupid to not provide the technical knowledge at the same time to ensure safety if the decision does get made anyway.
However, I can see how that would be a confusing message to try to teach - at any age.
'It is best not to do it, but if you are going to, here's all the stuff you need - have fun y'all'
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08/06/2004 09:44:03 AM · #3 |
| Britain has tried an educate not obstinate (if that's the right word) sex in schools. It certainly doesn't seem to be doing much good, since Britain has very high teen pregnancy. |
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08/06/2004 09:48:07 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Britain has tried an educate not obstinate (if that's the right word) sex in schools. It certainly doesn't seem to be doing much good, since Britain has very high teen pregnancy. |
abstain would be the word - though obstinate is (probably unintentionally) funnier.
Perhaps temporary, reversable, enforced castration might help.
I remember a large outcry when I was at university, when the dean quite seriously wrote a letter to the Times proposing that the contraceptives should be introduced in to the water supply and that anyone who wanted to get pregnant would have to explicitly take a counter measure. This counter measure would be appropriately expensive, so that you'd essentially have to 'qualify' to have children. Intellectually a reasonably sensible idea - in the absence of any humanity or compansionate thought.
Message edited by author 2004-08-06 09:50:32.
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08/06/2004 09:48:40 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
More seriously, I think abstinence isn't a bad message to teach. Certainly more people could do with waiting until they are emotionally mature enough to enter into a physical relationship. Though at the same time I think it is stupid to not provide the technical knowledge at the same time to ensure safety if the decision does get made anyway.
However, I can see how that would be a confusing message to try to teach - at any age.
'It is best not to do it, but if you are going to, here's all the stuff you need - have fun y'all' |
I agree that abstinence would be a great answer but we all surely know that it won't happen. I'm sure anyone with kids would agree that telling them not to do something often results in them doing it anyway.
Its like saying don't smoke. Its bad for you. |
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08/06/2004 09:51:22 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Britain has tried an educate not obstinate (if that's the right word) sex in schools. It certainly doesn't seem to be doing much good, since Britain has very high teen pregnancy. |
There was an American christian group over in the UK trying to promote abstinece recently by giving out rings that signify someone who will wait until they are mature enough. To my knowledge, it failed badly. Kids don't like no, but they might listen to advice. |
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08/06/2004 09:51:29 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by biohazard:
Its like saying don't smoke. Its bad for you. |
Yup - you'd be better saying 'don't smoke - you'll smell bad and won't get laid' - hmm, mixed signals again...
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08/06/2004 09:51:48 AM · #8 |
I almost hate to get involved in the discussion...but this is what I do for a living and it's in Texas, so here goes nothing...
I am the director of a rural school district's Pregnancy, Education, and Parenting program. I am responsible for approximately 55-60 pregnant and parenting teen students every school year. Of course, once they enter our doors the issue of abstinence is moot, since they must be pregnant or parenting to qualify for services in my program. But in my experience, I have found that abstinence education is not the problem, nor is any other sex-ed program du jour. The issue all comes down to (about 90% of the time) parent involvement, supervision, and support.
Students in my program range in age from 11 to 22. They come from broken homes, single parent homes, and "normal" homes...they are white, black, hispanic, mixed races...they are two or more years behind in school, or are in the race for valedictorian...and in nearly all the cases, the pregnancy has occurred due to opportunity. Parents not at home, parents not knowing who their child is with and where their children are.
Some instances are the much more heartbreaking and traumatic cases of rape or incest, but they are few. There is an occasional "planned" pregnancy...usually a girl who is seeking out love and attention from SOMEONE...since it's not coming from home. But most are just simply because (and I'll use girls as an example for clarity) their daughter was just in a place where sex could happen...and protection was not available in the heat of the moment, because, after all, they didn't plan to have sex...it just happened.
I counsel my students regularly, and one of the issues we discuss at length is what could have been done to prevent the pregnancy to begin with. My students have never once told me "I didn't know how to use a condom" or "I didn't know how to get any kind of birth control." The answers are usually much deeper..."If my mom would just stop yelling all the time, I'd want to be at home more." "If my stepdad would stop drinking so much, I might want to have friends over more often instead of going out."
Another issue is refusal skills, which is part of abstinence education. Most girls (again, an example for clarity) don't have the skills to refuse the advances of a young man, especially a young man who might be popular, handsome, or extremely persuasive. "I thought he would love me more if I..." is something I hear a lot. "I thought he would stay with me if I got pregnant with his baby." All kinds of issues there...but they start with the inability to say no. Abstinence education does have an advantage when it comes to teaching ways for girls to say no and still feel empowered and worthy of affection from their boyfriends.
I know I have rambled a lot...but this issue is very near and dear to me, because I see it every single day. Effective parenting, communication with teens, and teaching refusal skills will go a long way in reducing the rate of teen pregnancies and STD's...whether or not it is in conjunction with abstinence education or any other curriculum used. It's not just a Texas problem, because teens are pregnant and have STDs in every other state. I just personally feel that the responsibility lies in the home first and foremost. Anything else the schools can do to assist is just added bonus.
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08/06/2004 09:54:32 AM · #9 |
Hey, if there's any chance at all that it will result in fewer ignorant religious fanatics, then I'm all for it. :)
I think these little tidbits are pricelessâ¦
âThey say the books are lacking. For example, one textbook under review advises that a good way a teen-ager can prevent a sexually transmitted disease is to get plenty of rest so he or she can have a clear head about sex and choose abstinence.â
âThe education board has been at the center of many political and religious battles over the years including a recent proposal by evangelical Christian groups to have the state's textbooks include items debunking evolution,â
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08/06/2004 09:57:02 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by micknewton:
âThe education board has been at the center of many political and religious battles over the years including a recent proposal by evangelical Christian groups to have the state's textbooks include items debunking evolution,â |
Well - it's just a theory after all and doesn't have the backing of a full-on religion to demonstrate that it must be true.
I'm all for teaching creationism right along side evolution, but that has the nasty side effect of making one of them look faintly silly in comparison. (which is which is left as an exercise for the particular belief system of the reader)
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08/06/2004 09:58:46 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Another issue is refusal skills, which is part of abstinence education. Most girls (again, an example for clarity) don't have the skills to refuse the advances of a young man, especially a young man who might be popular, handsome, or extremely persuasive. "I thought he would love me more if I..." is something I hear a lot. "I thought he would stay with me if I got pregnant with his baby." All kinds of issues there...but they start with the inability to say no. Abstinence education does have an advantage when it comes to teaching ways for girls to say no and still feel empowered and worthy of affection from their boyfriends.
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I agree with that totally. The thing that makes me angry is deliberatly leaving out contraception eduction. For sure, concentrate very hard on the refusal side (as this is the big problem) but make sure there is a section in the textbook that gives all relavent information on STD's and contraception.
By the way LaurielBlack, what you are doing must be very difficult. I admire you for helping with this as it is a large problem in many areas of the world. |
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08/06/2004 10:00:10 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Britain has tried an educate not obstinate (if that's the right word) sex in schools. |
abstain would be the word - though obstinate is (probably unintentionally) funnier. |
Actually I meant an opposite to educate.
Obstinate: unmoved, persistent, inflexible.
Seemed right at the time. :-) |
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08/06/2004 10:05:23 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Britain has tried an educate not obstinate (if that's the right word) sex in schools. |
abstain would be the word - though obstinate is (probably unintentionally) funnier. |
Actually I meant an opposite to educate.
Obstinate: unmoved, persistent, inflexible.
Seemed right at the time. :-) |
obfuscate ?
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08/06/2004 10:08:32 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by biohazard:
underage pregnancies are on the rise |
Are you sure?
According to this article, "Teen pregnancy rates dropped considerably in the 1990s, largely as a result of fewer teens having sex and better use of contraception".
The article also states "teen birth, abortion and pregnancy rates have steadily dropped since 1991" and that "teenage girls became more likely to remain virgins throughout high school, with the rate of sexual activity among high school girls falling from 51 percent in 1991 to 43 percent in 2001". |
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08/06/2004 10:09:19 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by biohazard:
...what you are doing must be very difficult. I admire you for helping with this as it is a large problem in many areas of the world. |
Difficult, yes...but extremely rewarding and absolutely the best career I could imagine. Our program is successful in the fact that out of 21 seniors enrolled in the last year alone, 20 of them graduated in May, and the 21st in July...and four have gone to college, and one into the military. They may have been in a bad situation, but they are learning to make the best of it and go on with their goals. We also emphasize STRONGLY our desire for NO REPEAT PREGNANCIES...which has been very successful...in ten years we have had only three repeaters (out of about 500 students)...so something is working right!
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08/06/2004 10:10:37 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by biohazard:
underage pregnancies are on the rise |
Are you sure?
According to this article, "Teen pregnancy rates dropped considerably in the 1990s, largely as a result of fewer teens having sex and better use of contraception".
The article also states "teen birth, abortion and pregnancy rates have steadily dropped since 1991" and that "teenage girls became more likely to remain virgins throughout high school, with the rate of sexual activity among high school girls falling from 51 percent in 1991 to 43 percent in 2001". |
Sorry might just be the UK. |
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08/06/2004 10:13:45 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Originally posted by biohazard:
...what you are doing must be very difficult. I admire you for helping with this as it is a large problem in many areas of the world. |
Difficult, yes...but extremely rewarding and absolutely the best career I could imagine. Our program is successful in the fact that out of 21 seniors enrolled in the last year alone, 20 of them graduated in May, and the 21st in July...and four have gone to college, and one into the military. They may have been in a bad situation, but they are learning to make the best of it and go on with their goals. We also emphasize STRONGLY our desire for NO REPEAT PREGNANCIES...which has been very successful...in ten years we have had only three repeaters (out of about 500 students)...so something is working right! |
Those are very impressive stats, keep up the good work!! I'm glad yopu have found such a rewarding career that actually helps people. Not many people can say that. |
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08/06/2004 10:15:11 AM · #18 |
The National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy is a wealth of information, fact sheets, research data, statistics, and resources for all teen pregnancy and STD related issues. We use their site "religiously" for updated info...and have gotten a lot of good ideas for program implementation. They sponsor a National Day to Prevent Teen Pregnancy every May, which we participate in, and the resources available for it are always very good and hit home with the students. If this topic interests you, it is a site worth your time to visit.
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08/06/2004 10:29:18 AM · #19 |
Laurie
Very well stated!
You made so many good points it would be superfluous to quote them all.
My wife and I will have been married 30 years on Aug 25th. We have two boys that have graduated from college and making a good living for themselves. The youngest just got engaged and the oldest is still thinking it over :)
I think the key to the whole problem is to being able to talk, listen and understand your children. Parents nowadays do not seem to fully understand this. That and if they do it is hard to manage and control with all the work and stress. When our two boys were growing up we took the time to talk, listen and understand them. If they had a problem we would talk it out when they were ready.
When they were in high school our home was the gathering point every night for all their friends. They would come and play billiards, darts and just to horse around. We never hollered at them to keep quite and etc. The kids always told us they loved coming to our house because we did not holler and tell them to shut up or keep the noise down. A number of times their friends came to us to talk and ask for advice.
We are not the family that was in church every Sunday and I won't go down that road, especially being from Texas. But we do have our strong beliefs and we managed to make the boys understand, especially about not smoking, girls and sex. We always taught them that sex was not a good idea until they finished school/college and had a head start on life.
Someday teenagers may wake up to the fact that a few minutes (or seconds in most cases) of pleasure is not worth the risk of screwing up their lives forever.
Becoming parents should be planned and not everyone has what it takes to be parents. Like they always said "And you have to have a license to sell real estate"
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08/06/2004 10:39:22 AM · #20 |
Laurie, I really appreciate your posts on this subject. I agree with you 100% and the work you are doing is a tremendous service to our society.
I would like to add that in addition to to everything Laurie said (about education, refusal skills, parental involvement, etc.) I think we should try to be more open with our children about sex. We should take a more active role in their sexual educations, augment their education as necessary, and stop being afraid to talk to our children about sex. If we are more open about the entire subject, we remove the taboo that it's not ok to talk about it and more importantly, we dispel the mystery of it all. Dispel the mystery and then kids will realize the complexity of the issue and the responsibility that goes with it. At the same time they will realizie that it's not such a big deal and that they don't have to rush into a sexual experience to settle their curiosity about it.
Gee, I hope that makes sense. |
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08/06/2004 11:05:43 AM · #21 |
Laurie said it nicely.
I won't. I wish all the lame-brained, lazy "parents" out there would stop thinking that the government should be raising their kids. I don't think that either abstinence or contraceptives should be taught in school, in an ideal world. Guess what, folks? It's YOUR job to teach your kids about this sort of thing. Not the state's, not GW Bush's. Perhaps Gordon is right - there ought to be some qualification system in order to become a parent. There are far too many parents out there who don't do any parenting.
It's a shame that the state has to step in and be parents to our kids.
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08/06/2004 11:23:12 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
I counsel my students regularly, and one of the issues we discuss at length is what could have been done to prevent the pregnancy to begin with. My students have never once told me "I didn't know how to use a condom" or "I didn't know how to get any kind of birth control." The answers are usually much deeper..."If my mom would just stop yelling all the time, I'd want to be at home more." "If my stepdad would stop drinking so much, I might want to have friends over more often instead of going out." |
I think this is a really important point. Too many people assume that the only reason some kid got pregnant was because they didn't know how to use or obtain contraception whereas, certainly in the UK, kids are very aware of this kind of stuff at a much younger age than they used to be. And I don't think you need to have the use of a condom demonstrated (on a handy plastic penis) in order for someone to figure out where it goes! ;) It's just easier to assume that this is a reason because it's something that can be more easily remedied than the myriad real reasons such as lack of parental control or knowledge of what's going on in a kid's life, lack of avenues of support, lack of emotional maturity and so on.
That said, I agree with biohazard that this doesn't mean that education about contraception should be omitted. There are always going to be kids who manage to miss the playground "education" of their peers who have picked up information from other places, there are always going to be kids who don't believe the tales of their peers, there are always going to be kids who just don't get it until it's been drummed into their skulls 100 times.
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Another issue is refusal skills, which is part of abstinence education. Most girls (again, an example for clarity) don't have the skills to refuse the advances of a young man, especially a young man who might be popular, handsome, or extremely persuasive. "I thought he would love me more if I..." is something I hear a lot. "I thought he would stay with me if I got pregnant with his baby." All kinds of issues there...but they start with the inability to say no. Abstinence education does have an advantage when it comes to teaching ways for girls to say no and still feel empowered and worthy of affection from their boyfriends. |
I don't know how easy it is to teach this kind of stuff but I absolutely agree that this reflects many of the reasons that MOST girls do have sex so early.
Another point I want to make is this idea that letting kids know that they will get sexually transmitted diseases if they do this or that isn't a strong motivator for abstinence.
Youth just doesn't have the same concerns about mortality or even the same perception of it as adults.
There can't be anyone alive who doesn't know from a young age that smoking leads to all kinds of horrible health problems yet smoking is as prevalent as ever in youngsters who are young enough to have heard and read the health information on smoking ALL THEIR LIVES.
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08/06/2004 11:26:21 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
I almost hate to get involved in the discussion...but this is what I do for a living and it's in Texas, so here goes nothing...
I am the director of a rural school district's Pregnancy, Education, and Parenting program. ... students in my program range in age from 11 to 22. ... Anything else the schools can do to assist is just added bonus. |
*emphasis added by me
Thanks for posting this laurie.
My daughter is 11, and I was just now shocked to see this age group is included in this issue. I shouldn't have been shocked, but was.
Anyway, I am so glad that my daughter is so far safe from this, and hope she will continue to be. We are always together unless she is in school.
It is a wake up call though, and glad this post and the original post was made.
I do agree that it all starts at home along with smoking/drinking/etc... but that even "good kids" can get caught up.
I see nothing wrong with the school system putting out an effort. They can't not talk about it. In the schools here (some of the towns anyway), they actually have condom vending machines in the schools. Some parents like it, some don't.
I knew someone who made her kid(s) carry a condom in his/her wallet..."just in case, so that you at least don't get pregnant/get someone pregnant or worse, get a fatal disease." The difference is, the kid(s) knew what was right from wrong all from home, and could make responsible decisions.
This will be an ever entangled issue.
I, as a parent, can only teach from home, and hope I have done a good job.
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08/06/2004 11:35:33 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by Calvus:
My wife and I will have been married 30 years on Aug 25th.
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Congratulations!!!!
Originally posted by Calvus:
I think the key to the whole problem is to being able to talk, listen and understand your children. Parents nowadays do not seem to fully understand this. That and if they do it is hard to manage and control with all the work and stress. When our two boys were growing up we took the time to talk, listen and understand them. If they had a problem we would talk it out when they were ready.
When they were in high school our home was the gathering point every night for all their friends. They would come and play billiards, darts and just to horse around. We never hollered at them to keep quite and etc. The kids always told us they loved coming to our house because we did not holler and tell them to shut up or keep the noise down. A number of times their friends came to us to talk and ask for advice.
We are not the family that was in church every Sunday and I won't go down that road, especially being from Texas. But we do have our strong beliefs and we managed to make the boys understand, especially about not smoking, girls and sex. We always taught them that sex was not a good idea until they finished school/college and had a head start on life.
Someday teenagers may wake up to the fact that a few minutes (or seconds in most cases) of pleasure is not worth the risk of screwing up their lives forever.
Becoming parents should be planned and not everyone has what it takes to be parents. Like they always said "And you have to have a license to sell real estate" |
Well done!
This is how my family was when I was growing up. We always had everyone at our house, and the other kids liked it that way... and so did my parents. They gave us a good place to be. My parents became "parents" to many others - councelled them on many issues about life decisions.
Already I have my kids' friends coming to me. I hope they continue to. I think that Parenting your own, being a "community parent" and the schools all have to work hand in hand. |
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08/06/2004 11:38:55 AM · #25 |
New York Times Sunday Magazine
Whatever Happened to Teen Romance (And What is a Friend with Benefits, Anyway?): Friends, Friends with Benefits, and the Benefits of the Local Mall.
//www.benoitdenizetlewis.com/content/Teen_Romance_NYTimes.pdf
Award winning article by Benoit Denizet-Lewis on teen sexuality in this day in age. Its upsetting what our culture of sex, lack of parenting and constant bombardment of hormones and steroids in our meat, cheese and milk (causing kids to hit puberty much sooner) has done to our youth.
Message edited by author 2004-08-06 11:39:48. |
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