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08/05/2004 10:48:42 AM · #1
With all this talk of security and paranoid reactions to photographers taking pictures of public structures (buildings, bridges, etc.), I'm more reluctant to do that type of photography. Add that to the need for a signed release whenever taking the image of any recognizable face (or other body part, if it's recognizable), and it makes my beloved pastime a much greater hassle than I bargained for.

Photography is not for the faint-of-heart. ...Don't get me wrong... There are plenty of landscapes, sunsets, flowers, and pets [notice I didn't include 'children' in this list - that's another source of paranoid misinterpretation of intent...].

Maybe it's just that photography has lost its innocence? Our world is no longer a place where one can randomly, playfully capture images like Henri Cartier-Bresson did so masterfully. We need to be careful, to avoid stepping on toes, to not engage in an act (picture taking) that someone with devious intentions might also engage in.

I want to practice and enjoy my art and craft to its fullest. Modern technology greatly simplifies the possibility of attaining that goal, but modern politics and fears seem to be working to constrain me.

Should I just take the path of least resistance and confine myself to landscapes, sunsets, flowers, and pets? (I know... there's plenty in that list to go around)
08/05/2004 10:55:55 AM · #2
Originally posted by lenkphotos:

Should I just take the path of least resistance and confine myself to landscapes, sunsets, flowers, and pets? (I know... there's plenty in that list to go around)


Of course not! You MUST strive to get that shot that no one else has yet captured. Find new angles and places and faces or else you're wasting your talent! My fear of being "yelled at" has been my biggest hurdle in my photography and I hate that.

Never be afraid to go out on a limb for something you're passionate about.

Message edited by author 2004-08-05 10:56:34.
08/05/2004 10:59:56 AM · #3
Originally posted by wwwavenger:

Never be afraid to go out on a limb for something you're passionate about.


I'm passionate about clubbing baby seals. I've been nervous until now, but screw it ... your right ... I'm headed north, club in hand.

:)
08/05/2004 11:01:02 AM · #4
Originally posted by hopper:

I'm passionate about clubbing baby seals. I've been nervous until now, but screw it ... your right ... I'm headed north, club in hand.


And I hope if you get taken out by greenpeace, you go down fighting!
08/05/2004 11:46:48 AM · #5
When it comes to architechture and similar subjects, you simply need to know your rights as a photographer. When children are involved, you need to practice ethics along with knowing your rights...
08/05/2004 11:53:56 AM · #6
Originally posted by wwwavenger:


Never be afraid to go out on a limb for something you're passionate about.

So I should just go up to the lady at the mall in wolf camera and ask....can I take a photo of your BOOBS
(.) (.)
08/05/2004 11:59:16 AM · #7
Originally posted by hopper:

Originally posted by wwwavenger:

Never be afraid to go out on a limb for something you're passionate about.


I'm passionate about clubbing baby seals. I've been nervous until now, but screw it ... your right ... I'm headed north, club in hand.

:)


You are whacked in the head but funny in a disturbing little way ;-)

But seriously, strong morals/ethics should be your guide. There are some folks who are going to get bent out of shape no matter what you do. I think in those cases you have to politely but firmly tell them to go pound salt.

I'm still working on growing my 'photography gonads' as I tend to be overly polite. At the Carolina Raptor Center, I was photographing an owl. John was kind enough to quietly say to me, "Hey, why don't you move over there..." which allowed me to get a much better shot. Thanks for that, John. I wanted to move 'over there' but one of the volunteers was talking and I didn't want to be rude by possibly distracting others by angling for a better position.

Next time I'm out and about with my camera, I will remember that situation and it will remind me to 'get in there' and not be afraid to get the shot.
08/05/2004 12:23:39 PM · #8
Originally posted by lenkphotos:

...I want to practice and enjoy my art and craft to its fullest. Modern technology greatly simplifies the possibility of attaining that goal, but modern politics and fears seem to be working to constrain me...


I shared these thoughts in the same context yesterday, while browsing 182 Cartier-Bresson images.
In addition to knowing your rights (a difficult feat in this country, where numerous rights are determined on the basis of individual vulnerability) and practicing ethics (a widely lost art, apparently), courage is what I think is needed most badly in these times - not inconsiderate recklessness, but courage.

Message edited by author 2004-08-05 12:24:27.
08/05/2004 01:08:00 PM · #9
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

When it comes to architechture and similar subjects, you simply need to know your rights as a photographer. When children are involved, you need to practice ethics along with knowing your rights...

Yes..., knowing your rights and obligations, and practicing accordingly, are important. There was a time that this wasn't such a big deal. Either we've lost some innocence, or else people were just more naiive back then.

08/05/2004 01:10:22 PM · #10
easier for me to do, there not gonna arrest or detain a 14 year old for taking a few pictures of a building.
08/05/2004 01:19:28 PM · #11
Originally posted by lenkphotos:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

When it comes to architechture and similar subjects, you simply need to know your rights as a photographer. When children are involved, you need to practice ethics along with knowing your rights...

Yes..., knowing your rights and obligations, and practicing accordingly, are important. There was a time that this wasn't such a big deal. Either we've lost some innocence, or else people were just more naiive back then.


I think when it comes to photographing people (mainly children) they are afraid that the pictures will be scattered all over the internet on pervert sites and such. Which I can totally understand. Before the internet really took of and before digital cameras, people probablly didnt really mind all that much to have their picture taken, thanks to a few bad apples out there the rest of us have to suffer as well.

While at the beach last week I was taking some candid pics of my soon to be neices and nephew, sister inlaw and mother in law and I did get a few odd stares from people walking by. But once they saw that I was with them, they didnt stare any more.

James
08/05/2004 01:34:44 PM · #12
Maybe if you asked right and weren't rude, crude or ignorant about it she just may say yes.
Originally posted by MatrixReloaded:

Originally posted by wwwavenger:


Never be afraid to go out on a limb for something you're passionate about.

So I should just go up to the lady at the mall in wolf camera and ask....can I take a photo of your BOOBS
(.) (.)
08/05/2004 01:36:56 PM · #13
ZeusZen has perfectly illustrated the balance needed I think- not recklessness(foolhardiness) but courage. Thats a great expression ZZ, quite indicative of your philosophical background.

I will share a brief anecdote now;

I work in an office building near neighborhoods in a fairly affluent southern new england town with a large prison in it - (it seems that in Connecticut they put prisons in a great deal of nice towns)
I was driving around at lunch looking for a shot to fit the
"fences challenge" and I dorve on to prison grounds to take a picture of the ivy-covered and ribbon-wired prison fromt wall when I was swarmed by four armed guards who demanded to know who the hell I was and why I was taking pictures without a permit. Luckily I was wearing a suit and had a good explanation and I showed them that I erased the picture, and I left with my tail between my legs.

needless to say my winning "good fences make good neighbors" shot never happened.

I am alittle gunshy around any public structure now, adn prefer to leave the closeups for journalists.
08/05/2004 01:42:05 PM · #14
Originally posted by blindjustice:

...
I am alittle gunshy around any public structure now, and prefer to leave the closeups for journalists.

That's precisely my point. I think it's truly a sad commentary on our times.

08/05/2004 01:47:03 PM · #15
Originally posted by dwolff:

Maybe if you asked right and weren't rude, crude or ignorant about it she just may say yes.


Donna ... you and I should hang out soon :)
08/05/2004 02:03:41 PM · #16
Has anyone here had anything more then questions asked of them while taking pictures someplace where it was legal to do so? If so, please share?
If you were on private property taking pictures, or in a restroom/lockeroom or hiding in the neighbor's closet, that's a different story.


08/05/2004 02:36:49 PM · #17
My take on it.

Being passionate about something is what makes life interesting, be it taking pictures of archetecture, candid street life, cliche's or boobs. Once you know what you are passionate about, you have an obligation to be as self-serving about obtaining that as possible. This is not in an egotistical 'my way is the only way' manner of thinking, if you look for it there are ways to accomplish what you are passionate about without upsetting anyone -- well, most anyone anyway. There are always those vocal few that get upset by anyone pursuing what they are passionate about. :(

If you do anything other than what you are passionate about, doesn't that make you a hypocrite -- professing on thing, but doing another? If you do not pursue what you are passionate about, aren't you betraying yourself?

You are an important part of the culture around you, if you are not true to yourself you are reducing that liveliness of that culture. If you do what you are passionate about you add to the culture, but if you do what you feel the culture expects of you it is adding to you -- adding something that is not of value to you. Be an active part of the culture around you, pursue your passions.

'Photographic Gonads' I like that. If you never question what you are doing, few others will either. Sure there will be a few incidents, but if you immediately upon confrontation start to doubt yourself you have already lost.

David
/pep-talk
08/05/2004 02:52:06 PM · #18
The only problems I have encountered so far are these:

1. I got in some pretty deep trouble afer making this photo:



This is a carousel in the food court of our local shopping mall (private property). I managed to snap a few photos before I was told that I was not allowed to photograph the carousel unless I had a child riding it. At this point, I bought a toked so I could ride it myself and snap some more photos. The would not let me ride and they escorted me out of the mall. They woulnd't refund my token either :)

The following day, I sent email to the mall offices explaining what had happened. When I explained to them what I was doing, they told me I could come back and do it again if I wished to do so, but I needed to let them know when I was coming. I did NOT get permission prior to attempting my photos there on this visit.

2. richterrell and I ran into a problem photographing a water fountain on the capitol grounds in Washington DC. We were using tripods and capitol police approached us and told us we were not allowed to use tripods in this location. They told us we could shoot all we wanted without the tripods. We continued without our tripods and they did come back to check on us.

3. Children...

I have never photographed a child not related to me without asking permission from their parents first. Of the times I have asked for permission, I have never been turned down.

Example 1
Example 2
Example 3 - I had permission to photograph this as an event...
Example 4
Example 5

We, as photographers, should balance ethics with our rights. We may be within our legal rights to make certain photos, but we should also be ethical about it and do what is 'right' at the same time.

08/05/2004 03:10:28 PM · #19
Legal Handbook for Photographers

I bought this book at Barnes & Noble a while back and most of your legal questions (in the US) will be answered here. There is also a free online guide (PDF format) by the same author:

The Phtographer's Right - updated in July 2004

08/05/2004 03:41:02 PM · #20
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Legal Handbook for Photographers

I bought this book at Barnes & Noble a while back and most of your legal questions (in the US) will be answered here. There is also a free online guide (PDF format) by the same author:

The Phtographer's Right - updated in July 2004


Thanks for the links. Very informative.
08/05/2004 03:41:08 PM · #21
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

The Phtographer's Right - updated in July 2004


This is very interesting. It says " Members of the public have a very limited scope of privacy rights when they are in public places. Basically, anyone can be photographed without their consent except when they have secluded themselves..."

In the book, does the author mention anything about model releases? I noticed the PDF had no mention.
08/05/2004 03:50:00 PM · #22
Originally posted by dinny:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

The Phtographer's Right - updated in July 2004


This is very interesting. It says " Members of the public have a very limited scope of privacy rights when they are in public places. Basically, anyone can be photographed without their consent except when they have secluded themselves..."

In the book, does the author mention anything about model releases? I noticed the PDF had no mention.

That IS interesting. The implication, though, is that while anyone may be photographed in a public place w/o their permission, the usage of that image becomes the next issue (including the release form).

Message edited by author 2004-08-05 15:51:31.
08/05/2004 03:51:25 PM · #23
I think I'll feel free to shoot pictures anywhere the government has been so kind as to already put people on notice ...
08/05/2004 04:06:44 PM · #24
So if I was shooting picture *for* my company, *at* a company event, do I still need releases from any employees I shoot? Or does the company event signify a waiver of rights?
08/05/2004 05:42:17 PM · #25
Originally posted by airatic:

So if I was shooting picture *for* my company, *at* a company event ...

You are "working for hire" and the employees can take up any legal issues with the company. The company also owns/controls the copyrights for all the images, so you can't use them for any other purpose either (without permission).
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