New Comers: How to take better Pictures

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

07/21/2004 10:37:04 AM · #26

Originally posted by cghubbell:

I think the point jmseltzer was making is that it's not important to create a photo that will do well on DPC. What's important is to be able to experience something you wish to preserve photographically, then envision it in your mind, and create THAT image.

Indeed.

I do have an appreciation for technical excellence, but I also have a greater apprecation for emotional appeal. The two don't have to coexist either. Graphicfunk's approach is admirable though. I don't disagree with much of what he says, but I believe his though process is geared more towards the professional photographer.

"Of course, you can downplay it and say nothing matters. Look at some of the superb shots on this site and tell me they just happened without the grace of skill."

I can do this... There are two problems here. 1 - 'superb' is definitely subjective and 2 - I can only assume that my ideal of 'without the grace of skill' is relevant.

- being in the right place at the right time... possibly a rare chance shot. This certainly doesn't appear to be contrived, which gives it even more power, in my mind. I like to use Alecia's "Peek" photo as an example because it is the ONLY photographic print I have ever purchased from another photographer.

I find that photographs that seem to include an element of 'luck' like this one have some nice qualities. The 'grace and skill' that you mention, however, ALWAYS has some relevance. This grace and skill of a prepared photographer will make the chance photographs better in most every case.

I suppose the 'greatness' of any given photograph depends on the viewer's taste. Maybe I can clarify my point some more by saying that technically great photographs without some element of emotion don't inspire me. During my short 2.5 years or so in this hobby, my tastes have evloved and continue to do so. When I first started out, especially here at DPChallenge, the technical quality of any given image was probably most important to me. This was during my own process of learning technique. Once I felt comfortable with the standard exposure techniques, I began to wonder what comes next. Maybe this is where we disagree somewhat. Like I said earlier, knowing technique IS important. On the other hand, there is much more to great images than 'technical excellence.'

This Image is one that I would consider far from technically excellent. However, this photo has great appeal to me and a lot of people in my community. The subject is some sort of 'staple' of my community and people who have seen this love it.

charmayne

Nikon D300

07/21/2004 10:42:26 AM · #27

Im only participating here for a couple months. My previous experience (years ago) has been with film, my own dark room, enlarger etc. While i have applied some of that experience with digital, its a whole new universe for me. I have to say, I have learned more on this site than I thought possible. I have looked at hundreds of challenge entries and their comments, and have learned more from that than comments on my own entries.
I look at each challenge as an assignment trying to incorperate technical aspects as well as artistic into the theme asked for. Then wait for my grade and go onto the next assignment with what I have learned
Thank You GraphicFunk for bringing this to the forefront i hope other newcommers will take your advice and use this site to its full potential.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

07/21/2004 10:43:50 AM · #28

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

This Image is one that I would consider far from technically excellent. However, this photo has great appeal to me and a lot of people in my community. The subject is some sort of 'staple' of my community and people who have seen this love it.

I believe you captured exactly what you wanted to capture here. This, in the end, is the objective. Your picture tells a story. It (to me) is compositionally perfect and has the necessary wow factor to draw the viewer in due to the tone of the image. The exposure choice just adds to the wow so is the right exposure for the scene captured.

graphicfunk

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/21/2004 12:27:29 PM · #29

Originally posted by cghubbell:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the point jmseltzer was making is that it's not important to create a photo that will do well on DPC. What's important is to be able to experience something you wish to preserve photographically, then envision it in your mind, and create THAT image.

Indeed.

I do have an appreciation for technical excellence, but I also have a greater apprecation for emotional appeal. The two don't have to coexist either. Graphicfunk's approach is admirable though. I don't disagree with much of what he says, but I believe his though process is geared more towards the professional photographer.

"Of course, you can downplay it and say nothing matters. Look at some of the superb shots on this site and tell me they just happened without the grace of skill."

I can do this... There are two problems here. 1 - 'superb' is definitely subjective and 2 - I can only assume that my ideal of 'without the grace of skill' is relevant.

- being in the right place at the right time... possibly a rare chance shot. This certainly doesn't appear to be contrived, which gives it even more power, in my mind. I like to use Alecia's "Peek" photo as an example because it is the ONLY photographic print I have ever purchased from another photographer.

I find that photographs that seem to include an element of 'luck' like this one have some nice qualities. The 'grace and skill' that you mention, however, ALWAYS has some relevance. This grace and skill of a prepared photographer will make the chance photographs better in most every case.

I suppose the 'greatness' of any given photograph depends on the viewer's taste. Maybe I can clarify my point some more by saying that technically great photographs without some element of emotion don't inspire me. During my short 2.5 years or so in this hobby, my tastes have evloved and continue to do so. When I first started out, especially here at DPChallenge, the technical quality of any given image was probably most important to me. This was during my own process of learning technique. Once I felt comfortable with the standard exposure techniques, I began to wonder what comes next. Maybe this is where we disagree somewhat. Like I said earlier, knowing technique IS important. On the other hand, there is much more to great images than 'technical excellence.'

This Image is one that I would consider far from technically excellent. However, this photo has great appeal to me and a lot of people in my community. The subject is some sort of 'staple' of my community and people who have seen this love it.

************************************************************************

I do think that we are in aggreement here to the main premise. When I openned this thread, I mentioned nothing about technique. The ultimate aim or goal is the picture and everything else is academic. Let me give one example using a car in place of the camera as an analogy.

Before you can drive it you need the basic skills. The object is not to get hung up breaking and accelerating and turning...of course not... the object is to go somewhere.

Same with a camera. If you do not read the manual you will not use it to its full advantage. Of course, I get the point about the picture being the final end and some are so important that we are just happy to catch the moment even if the exposure and lighting are below par. Just yesterday I placed a shot of a baby praying in my favorites. This was not a technically good picture. There is also the chance this picture may have suffered if it were contrived.

My argument is very simple. You have a camera, learn the basic skills and with these skills you will be able to express what you want to accomplish. Between the envision and the execution lies a gulf of uncertainty which can be partly overcome by just reading the camera manual carefully. By studying just a little more, you close this gap even further.

Not long ago I envisioned a shot and to my surprise I was unable to bring it to life as envisioned. So, I sat down and drew diagrams to solve the riddle of why my idea did not materialize. If I lacked skills, I would have simply written off the shot. I succeeded and contrived a scene in which to use it and submitted as my balance challenge. Oh, yes, I aggree that the best picture is the most candid, like the famous war time poster of a sailor kissing his sweetheart. Contrived pictures fall under a different category, but there is nothing wrong in pushing the craft of photography to its limits.

I agree with you that the picture is more important then technique and that a candid shot with emotional appeal trumps the best technique. I only say that in order to speak a language properly you must first learn the alphabet and it helps further if you know your verbs and adjectives. You can express yourself being ignorant of the latter but ideas will get stuck in your head and some will have a hard time being expressed. The same with photography. Get a little skill and your expressions will be more lucid.

jmseltzer: I have great respect for the work you do. Your approach is rather unique in many areas. But hey, perhaps it is my viewpoint that you may not udestand. I am the eternal student. I play piano, flute, sax, guitar and have spent hours acquiring these basic skills. My student mentality tells me I must first learn the rudimentary skills before I can create music. Even those that play by ear must first grapple in obtaining finger and mouth dexterity before we can hear their soul and inspiration speak out.

To me a camera is a tool but I undestand that my expression with it is directly related as to how well I know how to use it. Use always implies skill. So my advise to new comers is read your manual and if you can spare some time read a few books and learn about exposure and why the meter in your camera is not often the best to use. And of course, I agree with you that you should not get hung up on the skill, but rather make the experience pleasurable.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/21/2004 12:46:05 PM · #30

Becoming a Better Photographer: Lesson 1
Becoming a Better Photographer: Lesson 2
Becoming a Better Photographer: Lesson 3
Becoming a Better Photographer: Lesson 4

I thought I had a 5th one but maybe not...

Exposure v1.11 - a work in progress...

Message edited by author 2004-07-21 12:52:13.

graphicfunk

Canon EOS-20D

07/21/2004 01:10:14 PM · #31

Jmsetzler: I think we are in agreement. I think the thread was diverted with all the techno-babble introduced by others. While all of this stuff is important and has its place, my point was to get the new comer to look at pictures. Once they do this, I think they all get the hint that to make a better picture requires a little study.
The lessons you wrote are a good addition to the site and I am certain they are highly appreciated.

digistoune

Canon EOS-20D

07/21/2004 01:13:25 PM · #32

If I may try to simplify things a bit...

You gotta learn the rules before you can [successfully] break them

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

07/21/2004 01:29:03 PM · #33

Originally posted by digistoune:

If I may try to simplify things a bit...

You gotta learn the rules before you can [successfully] break them

Exactly. Break the rules but know why you're breaking them.

ddmckinney1954

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

07/21/2004 01:35:48 PM · #34

Originally posted by scalvert:

I find it interesting that very few of the people who have responded to this thread actually NEED to learn how to take better pictures. ;-)

I do need to learn and continually learn by reading and observing entries...particuliarly during voting time. It is a slow learning curve

07/21/2004 03:25:31 PM · #35

When you think you have learned everything you need to know, let me know. I will need help.

Elemmennope

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

07/21/2004 03:31:51 PM · #36

I say this in my profile but when it comes to photography I've found that the more I learn, the more I realize just how much more I have to learn. I imagine I've gotten better since I first picked a camera up with "photography" in mind (rather than snap-shots) but I've also learned A LOT about what makes a good photo and am so much more critical of my photos now. In a way I feel like I've gotten worse, but really I think I just expect way more from myself!

Great thread! I'm learning a ton from this community!