is irony a cultural thing? - DPChallenge Forums

07/19/2004 02:23:34 PM · #26

Originally posted by louddog:

Amazing, any topic can be turned into a Bush bash...

I wouldn't have expected that...

Yes... Isn't it ironic?

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

07/19/2004 02:55:05 PM · #27

Please turn the discussion back to the picture at hand, and the issue at hand.

Keep all personal "attacks" to yourself, and do your bushbashing, if you must, in the rant forums.

Phileine

Pentax K100D Super

07/19/2004 03:16:56 PM · #28

oops, i never expected (or meant to for that matter) to turn into something like this.

To make things clear one last time: I can totally live with low grades because of a bad picture or a bad idea. I did want to explain myself, and also wondered because of the comments whether irony is percieved diffently in different cultures. I have my answers now and can live with that.

I don't think by the way that irony has to be comical per se.

07/19/2004 03:25:46 PM · #29

Phileine,
My post was directed at a couple of other posters. I understood the intent of your initial post, and the reason you started it.

That said, though I'm an American, I did think it "ironic" you would use a caged bird for freedom. I think this may also be an example where I, as a viewer, could not read your mind and know that you meant for it to be ironic. So, there was a little doubt there.

Then, photographically, the fence was the dominant thing in the picture to me, and irony or not, it took away from the picture somewhat.

Hope that helps.

lwkimages

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

07/19/2004 03:55:40 PM · #30

Originally posted by karmat:

...I think this may also be an example where I, as a viewer, could not read your mind and know that you meant for it to be ironic. So, there was a little doubt there.

I believe this is the "cultural" difference that Phileine was alluding to. In some cultures (or so it seems), one doesn't need to read anothers mind to recognize irony.

That, however, is what I believe makes this site so valuable. We can have our work viewed and critiqued from so many different perspectives - whether culturally based or not.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

07/19/2004 04:10:24 PM · #31

I think it's true that irony does not do well on DPC. Those who remember the Irony challenge will have a reference. Irony is, indeed, subtle and a fairly sophisticated device at that. It's appeal is not a popular one.

While I agree with Kavey's post on the the image of the caged bird, I also agree with the general premise of the original post. The comments on the photo are telling, to say the least.

07/19/2004 04:27:56 PM · #32

Originally posted by lenkphotos:

Originally posted by karmat:
...I think this may also be an example where I, as a viewer, could not read your mind and know that you meant for it to be ironic. So, there was a little doubt there.

I believe this is the "cultural" difference that Phileine was alluding to. In some cultures (or so it seems), one doesn't need to read anothers mind to recognize irony.

That, however, is what I believe makes this site so valuable. We can have our work viewed and critiqued from so many different perspectives - whether culturally based or not.

What I was saying, perhaps not very effectively, was that I saw it, or recognized it, as ironic. I just didn't know if that was the point the photographer was making. For all I knew, he/she (cause I didn't know when I was voting) meant to submit a bird flying out over the fence, and at the last minute, someone kidnapped the computer and submitted a different one for them, and then time was up, and he/she had to take what came. :-)

I'm not sure it was a cultural misunderstanding. But, I suppose it could be.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

07/19/2004 04:29:01 PM · #33

Thinking about the great humorists that use irony most effectivly, they are all novelists or essayist. Chaucer, Cervantes, Twain, wrote looong jokes. Very few if any examples if irony fall into the one liner with the exception of a single Alaniss Morisette song.

When we read something that is not true, it is only once we trust the author's voice that we know they are being ironic and not just writing from the perspective of another obtuse knob. To enjoy irony we have to be certain that you know that what you said was not true, and it has to be funnier than it was dumb. That's a whole lot to be able to pull off in one 150k bitmap.

07/19/2004 04:31:59 PM · #34

Oh yea. Another bit of info. Of the comments, one that didn't get the irony was not American. Two of the commentators that did get the irony were Americans. There were several Americans who didn't get it, and there were a lot who didn't have geographical places in their profile. :-)

I still don't think it was a cultural misunderstanding.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/19/2004 04:44:28 PM · #35

Originally posted by karmat:

I still don't think it was a cultural misunderstanding.

I think it might be. It helps to have a little kulchur too. :-)

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

07/19/2004 04:51:07 PM · #36

Imagine that, a stereotype that does not hold true...

wouldn't have expected that!

Phileine

Pentax K100D Super

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

07/19/2004 04:52:42 PM · #37

Originally posted by karmat:

Phileine,
My post was directed at a couple of other posters. I understood the intent of your initial post, and the reason you started it.

I understood that karmat, I wrote my post before I read yours. And yes, your comment helps.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Sigma 18-125mm f/3.5-5.6 DC for Canon

07/19/2004 04:54:20 PM · #38

Originally posted by louddog:

Imagine that, a stereotype that does not hold true...

wouldn't have expected that!

I know, who da thunk that? totally weird.

Kavey

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

07/19/2004 05:00:18 PM · #39

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

When we read something that is not true, it is only once we trust the author's voice that we know they are being ironic and not just writing from the perspective of another obtuse knob.

That's an excellent way of putting it... I think the score for the image was more about the fact that the image didn't convey irony very well (regardless of how well people understand and use irony generally) than about the fact that this site has more American voters and that those American voters don't get irony.

I still hold to the point that there IS a difference in humour between people of different countries and that irony seems to be used more often in Britain (and some other places) than in the USA.

That's not good.
That's not bad.
It's not a criticism of any country.
It's just my perception on one of the many differences between countries around the world.

Diversity is not a BAD thing.

That's why I find it so amusing that someone could get so incensed by the mere suggestion that the use of irony might be different in different cultures and assume it's an attack on the US of A and bring Bush into the whole thing.

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS

07/19/2004 05:04:35 PM · #40

I think Kavey's signature sums up this whole debate rather nicely... :o)

frumoaznicul

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

07/19/2004 05:06:02 PM · #41

I think ofcourse there are cultural differencess especially regarding how we see art, and that's a normal thing to be so. I grew up behind the iron courtain, someone grew across the ocean another on an island somewhere, with completely different habbits, educations, standards of life... etc. I imagine if I can feel a verry strong cultural diffrence between where I live in my country and the south of my country, wich is a fairly small country, what huge differencess can be around the world. And expecially on subjects like this, such as freedom. I strongly belive that I as someone who had to bear with communism for half my life, for example have a different feeling about freedom, than someone who whas lucky to be born in a free country. This also aplies to humour, irony, and subtleness. I noticed for example that my picture are alot more succesful on russian sites than in placess like this. Why? It's simple. When I grew up you couldn't speak out loud whatever you wanted, you always had to be careful what you are saying and who you are talking to. So art here has become forms of subtle sending messages to those who can connect. Other people in different parts of the world had to put up with totaly different situations there fore they connect in other ways. I had it too here a few times when I whas joking about things or being ironic or sarcastic, and people took it as offensive. Then also comes the fact that regardless that we belong to the same culture or not, people are still different. especially americans whom by nature are a mixture of all cultures that exists. A succesful image in my opinnion is one that people loves it or hates it regardless of theyr culture, religion, sex, color and such. I don't think your image is a victim of cultural difference, it's reather a thing that comes with the nature of this site. When voting 100+ images most people don't stare long enough, to get your message. They just look for a second or 2 and if it doesn't strike them in the face, they move on... The image compositionaly is a bit too busy, wich reducess it's impact IMHO. Also ofcourse some got you message others didn't, but I'm sure that if I take your picture out on the stret here where I live and we all belong to the same culture, some will other's won't.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/19/2004 05:09:00 PM · #42

Originally posted by Kavey:

I still hold to the point that there IS a difference in humour between people of different countries and that irony seems to be used more often in Britain (and some other places) than in the USA.

From the introduction to
National Brotherhood Week from Tom Lehrer's album That Was The Year That Was
(originally written for David Frost's* news spoof That Was The Week That Was, or TW3)

*Yes, David Frost is British, Tom Lehrer is not ....

One week of every year is designated National Brotherhood Week. This is just one of many such weeks honoring various worthy causes. One of my favorites is National Make-Fun-Of-The-Handicapped Week, which Frank Fontaine and Jerry Lewis are in charge of as you know. During National Brotherhood Week various special events are arranged to drive home the message of brotherhood - this year, for example, on the first day of the week, Malcolm X was killed, which gives you an idea of how effective the whole thing is.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

07/19/2004 05:19:21 PM · #43

And when judging our humble countymen, keep in mind that in driving from Boston to Chicago you have crossed one third of America. Had you been traveling east from London an equal distance whould have taken you to Istanbul.
Such distances tend to create a greater variety of cultures even here in the new world than some distant cousins give us credit for. You can lump us all together, but it makes such a big lump that doing so has very little practical value.

turdave

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

07/19/2004 05:25:59 PM · #44

Just wanted to point out that I rarely even bother to look at the title of an image in the challenges. I looked at yours and saw a bird in a fence and that is how I voted. I did not sit and look at the photo and wonder if the guy that submitted it was just trying to be ironic or not. I do not know you so I would have no idea if you were trying. Even if everyone knew you were trying to be ironic the fence really took away from what could have been a good photo so it probably would have done about the same, you just wouldn't have gotten the comments you did.

kiwiness

Canon Canon 1d x Mark II

07/19/2004 05:41:05 PM · #45

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Europe is a little bigger than you realise. Last month I travelled from the south to the north of Sweden alone, which is the same distance as from London to Istanbul, still Europe! I travelled across Russia which is a lot bigger that USA. Those cultures seemed to be a lot the same where ever I was so your theory doesn't neccesarily hold true.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

07/19/2004 05:41:40 PM · #46

Originally posted by turdave:

urm - the fence was the point of the photo...

turdave

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi