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07/19/2004 04:00:42 AM · #1 |
In the freedom challenge, I used irony in a -what I thought- fairly obvious way. I clearly misjudged the cultural differences in the conception of irony. In Holland (and I think the whole of Europe), Irony is a very widely used tool, practiced especially when the message needs to be very strong, e.g. idealistic marketing. A picture of an imprisoned animal, would in most people here immediately revoke the reaction "this is about freedom", even without the title. I even was afraid the title would be too much, because I think irony needs to be subtile. Well, I learned my lesson. I can see from the comments that most people didn't get my meaning. I can live with low scores, but not with being misunderstood. That's why I felt the need to explain....
Freedom exist by the notion of its opposite, imprisonment. We treasure our freedom because NOT being free is the greatest sufferings known to mankind.
"Free as a bird" is the expression. The essence of a bird is its freedom, freedom from gravity, from the ground, from the earthly life. Imprisoning a bird, takes away the very heart, the characteristics of the animal. If freedom is like a bird, is a bird in captivity still a bird?
Does everybody experience the same as I do when watching a bird in a cage: the urge to scream out that something is very very wrong? Never in life will I be more aware of the concept freedom and its opposite, when viewing the most beautiful birds encaged and thus rubbed from their soul. If you ever need a reason to fight for freedom, look at a bird in a cage.
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07/19/2004 04:05:44 AM · #2 |
I agree. Birds are the worst house pets people choose. It's unfortunate. Dogs, cats are wonderful house pets, they thrive in them. Birds do not. And I don't know why anyone would keep one in a cage personally.
I guess I was only one of three that gave you an 8. Tis a shame.
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07/19/2004 04:11:10 AM · #3 |
Hi Philiene
your image was good and I think the irony was not lost on most people, it is just when you look at that image it convays sadness to me where as freedom should be joy and happiness as the winning entry has displayed.
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07/19/2004 10:59:31 AM · #4 |
From my experience, irony is something that happens to clothes to most Americans.
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07/19/2004 11:22:07 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
From my experience, irony is something that happens to clothes to most Americans. |
Right you are... Americans (I'm one...) are a very literal, in-the-box, people (most of us, anyway). My experience with Europeans, while in the Army in the 70s and with Dutch and German colleagues where I was employed, has demonstrated to me a deeper, more thoughtful, out-of-the-box way of thinking. This isn't, of course, to paint my countrymen with a broad brush, ...just to say that everyone can learn to see more broadly. |
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07/19/2004 11:42:28 AM · #6 |
Phileine
Irony is used a LOT in the UK. It's part of the psyche. It's part of the humour. Most of us appreciate irony, myself included.
That said I gave your entry a score of 4.
Whilst your point that "Freedom exist by the notion of its opposite, imprisonment. We treasure our freedom because NOT being free is the greatest sufferings known to mankind." is a good one your image is not a particularly good representation of that thought, in my opinion.
It's not easy to represent the challenge theme Freedom by showing a lack of it but if you are to do so you need to SHOW in your image the horror, the suffering of a lack of freedom.
Your image to me is just a snapshot of a bird in a cage. Whilst many of us abhor zoos and similar environments that restrict the natural freedoms of animals, your image doesn't really highlight the issue.
The composition and quality of the image isn't overly appealing either.
I don't mean to be harsh but I want to make it clear that your score isn't low just because people don't get "irony" but possibly because it's not an inspiring/ great image AND it's not a great example of irony either. I think sometimes it's easier to look for excuses and assume a lack of understanding on the part of the viewer than to accept that the entry itself is weak.
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07/19/2004 11:52:14 AM · #7 |
thanks Kavey and others for the explanations. I do know it's not a very good image, but all the comments I got were from people asking what it had to do with freedom. It's almost insulting that somebody would think that I really thought "free as a bird" fitted my picture, other than in a sense of irony. That's why I felt the need to explain.
(btw. I know irony is widely used in the UK. I mentioned Europe and although I know you guys don't like to admit it, you are part of the EU :)).
Message edited by author 2004-07-19 11:53:40. |
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07/19/2004 12:06:40 PM · #8 |
LOL
The irony there is that I DO call myself a European!!!
:-P
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07/19/2004 12:07:52 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
From my experience, irony is something that happens to clothes to most Americans. |
Or the taste of water from rusty pipes. |
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07/19/2004 12:13:47 PM · #10 |
I get most of my irony in a pill with my vitamin e, taken in the morning, daily.
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07/19/2004 12:48:30 PM · #11 |
I got your meaning and plenty of Americans use irony (just check out the The Onion, a satirical 'newspaper, or the American satirical 'news' program The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.
I don't really find this a subtle use of irony. To me, irony has the sting of wit. In other cases, the irony is in the very incongruity of a situation. To me, this is just defining one word by using its opposite. There isn't any inherent irony in the situation. While some may take issue with the notion of animals in captivity, it isn't really an ironic situation. The irony is only there because this is a challenge about freedom. Therefore, I found it rather forced and stretching the idea of the challenge. Honestly, it seemed a bit of a cop-out to me.
Message edited by author 2004-07-19 12:48:52.
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07/19/2004 12:52:34 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
Phileine
Irony is used a LOT in the UK. It's part of the psyche. It's part of the humour. Most of us appreciate irony, myself included.
That said I gave your entry a score of 4.
Whilst your point that "Freedom exist by the notion of its opposite, imprisonment. We treasure our freedom because NOT being free is the greatest sufferings known to mankind." is a good one your image is not a particularly good representation of that thought, in my opinion.
It's not easy to represent the challenge theme Freedom by showing a lack of it but if you are to do so you need to SHOW in your image the horror, the suffering of a lack of freedom.
Your image to me is just a snapshot of a bird in a cage. Whilst many of us abhor zoos and similar environments that restrict the natural freedoms of animals, your image doesn't really highlight the issue.
The composition and quality of the image isn't overly appealing either.
I don't mean to be harsh but I want to make it clear that your score isn't low just because people don't get "irony" but possibly because it's not an inspiring/ great image AND it's not a great example of irony either. I think sometimes it's easier to look for excuses and assume a lack of understanding on the part of the viewer than to accept that the entry itself is weak. |
This is very much the kind of idea I was trying to express only Kavey did it much better than I. I believe I was one of the commenters who commented about the connection to the challenge. I'm not sure if I said anything about the quality of the photo and if that is the case, I'm sorry. I generally try to make a comment about the photo outside the boundaries of the challenge but sometimes I have lapses.
[i]I just looked at the photo and I did not actually make any comments.
Message edited by author 2004-07-19 12:56:51.
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07/19/2004 12:53:45 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Originally posted by Gordon:
From my experience, irony is something that happens to clothes to most Americans. |
Right you are... Americans (I'm one...) are a very literal, in-the-box, people (most of us, anyway). My experience with Europeans, while in the Army in the 70s and with Dutch and German colleagues where I was employed, has demonstrated to me a deeper, more thoughtful, out-of-the-box way of thinking. This isn't, of course, to paint my countrymen with a broad brush, ...just to say that everyone can learn to see more broadly. |
Speak for yourself. I think you are painting an entire population with a very broad brush. Kind of ridiculous really.
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07/19/2004 01:10:04 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
From my experience, irony is something that happens to clothes to most Americans. |
Ben Franklin
Mark Twain
Al Franken
Jon Stewart
David Cross
Bob Odenkirk
Ben Stiller
Sarah Vowell
David Sedaris
Amy Sedaris
Ira Glass
Sandra Bernhardt
Gary Larson
Lily Tomlin
Amy Pohl
Wes Anderson
Lisa Kudrow
Conan O'Brian
David Letterman
Janeen Garofolo
Matt Groening
Lynda Barry
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07/19/2004 01:15:55 PM · #15 |
It's always the exception that proves the rule! ;o)
Seriously, I don't think one needs to take offence at the truth that humour is different around the globe. A look at the kind of comedies produced by different countries is evidence that each country has it's own rich heritage of humour and that these have a different emphasis.
No one would claim that NO Americans understand irony or that America produces NO humour in the ironic vein.
But I think it IS true to say that irony is not as prevalent a form of humour in the US as it is in some of Europe.
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07/19/2004 01:19:39 PM · #16 |
| Isn't such a serious and focused attempt to prove that we do understand irony just a bit...What's the word, you know funny but pointedly the proving the opposite of the stated intention...damn, I can't thnk of the word I'm looking for. |
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07/19/2004 01:22:31 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Originally posted by Gordon:
From my experience, irony is something that happens to clothes to most Americans. |
Right you are... Americans (I'm one...) are a very literal, in-the-box, people (most of us, anyway). My experience with Europeans, while in the Army in the 70s and with Dutch and German colleagues where I was employed, has demonstrated to me a deeper, more thoughtful, out-of-the-box way of thinking. This isn't, of course, to paint my countrymen with a broad brush, ...just to say that everyone can learn to see more broadly. |
Speak for yourself. I think you are painting an entire population with a very broad brush. Kind of ridiculous really. |
Please read the last sentence of my post, ...and of course I can only speak for myself. Also, try not to take me or anyone else (including yourself) so seriously.
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07/19/2004 01:23:50 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Isn't such a serious and focused attempt to prove that we do understand irony just a bit...What's the word, you know funny but pointedly the proving the opposite of the stated intention...damn, I can't thnk of the word I'm looking for. |
...Sarcasm? ...Caustic wit? ...being a smarta$$? ;o) LOL
edited for clarity
Message edited by author 2004-07-19 13:40:26.
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07/19/2004 01:34:53 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
It's always the exception that proves the rule! ;o)
Seriously, I don't think one needs to take offence at the truth that humour is different around the globe. A look at the kind of comedies produced by different countries is evidence that each country has it's own rich heritage of humour and that these have a different emphasis.
No one would claim that NO Americans understand irony or that America produces NO humour in the ironic vein.
But I think it IS true to say that irony is not as prevalent a form of humour in the US as it is in some of Europe. |
Well, I thought of responding, "I got your irony right here, pal" but I thought that would be rude. I could have also replied to Phileine, "If you have to explain the joke, life's not worth living, " but I was trying to be kind.
It took me about three minutes to compile a short list of Americans who use (or have used) irony in their art.
Not exactly a big effort. It's really easy these days for Europeans to feel superior over Americans and we have our dumb-ass of a President to thank for that but he is certainly not representative of the entire population of Americans.
This kind of thinking is rather witlesss and unimaginative.
Message edited by author 2004-07-19 13:35:50.
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07/19/2004 01:41:57 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Please read the last sentence of my post, ...and of course I can only speak for myself. Also, try not to take me or anyone else (including yourself) so seriously. |
This coming from the person who sent me an in-depth PM about a comment I made on an entry? Puh-leeze!
Suddenly, I'm taking myself too seriously because I happened to be another American who read this post and had another POV to offer? I'm not the one who started the thread whining about how dense non-Europeans are (that was the tone of it, IMO).
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07/19/2004 01:41:59 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
Well, I thought of responding, "I got your irony right here, pal" but I thought that would be rude. I could have also replied to Phileine, "If you have to explain the joke, life's not worth living, " but I was trying to be kind.
It took me about three minutes to compile a short list of Americans who use (or have used) irony in their art.
Not exactly a big effort. It's really easy these days for Europeans to feel superior over Americans and we have our dumb-ass of a President to thank for that but he is certainly not representative of the entire population of Americans.
This kind of thinking is rather witlesss and unimaginative. |
Here's an example of irony: "Do something pretty while you can."
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07/19/2004 01:45:21 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Originally posted by melismatica:
Well, I thought of responding, "I got your irony right here, pal" but I thought that would be rude. I could have also replied to Phileine, "If you have to explain the joke, life's not worth living, " but I was trying to be kind.
It took me about three minutes to compile a short list of Americans who use (or have used) irony in their art.
Not exactly a big effort. It's really easy these days for Europeans to feel superior over Americans and we have our dumb-ass of a President to thank for that but he is certainly not representative of the entire population of Americans.
This kind of thinking is rather witlesss and unimaginative. |
Here's an example of irony: "Do something pretty while you can." |
Well, my old signature was, "You can't polish a turd" but I thought I'd go for a more positive signature and used a quote from one of my favorite bands--who happen to be Scottish, BTW.
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07/19/2004 02:03:25 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
we have our dumb-ass of a President to thank for that but he is certainly not representative of the entire population of Americans.
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(ii) is libelous, defamatory or slanderous,
(vi) is designed to or does harass, threaten, defame or abuse others, (ix) is generally offensive or in bad taste.
Or "all of the above?"
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07/19/2004 02:17:08 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by photom:
Originally posted by melismatica:
we have our dumb-ass of a President to thank for that but he is certainly not representative of the entire population of Americans.
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(ii) is libelous, defamatory or slanderous,
(vi) is designed to or does harass, threaten, defame or abuse others,
(ix) is generally offensive or in bad taste.
Or "all of the above?" |
Are you refering to our president or her comments about our president? I think what you said is pretty much true either way, at least I find (ii) and (vi) true of him some of the time and (ix) most of the time, heck, dang near all the time. But maybe you just meant what she said about him.
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07/19/2004 02:22:27 PM · #25 |
Amazing, any topic can be turned into a Bush bash...
I wouldn't have expected that...
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