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05/24/2004 03:18:42 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by pitsaman:
Thanks for mentioning my photo ! :-)
Folks with high vote averages usually pick through the tumbnails and vote only good ones or 20 % and get 6 or more averages !
There is no way if you vote on 300 + photos in open challenge where 200 or more are just a training snapshots you will get above 5.0 !
No way !!! |
Be careful of generalizations like this. I don't think this is true at all. My average is 6.something and I DO look at every photo. No offense, but I think that some of us look for the good and reward it rather than look for the bad and penalize. If much in a photo is good, and only one or two elements are 'bad,' I will give it a higher score rather than a lower one. My average is 6.xx, but I usually end up with 2-5 10s, a few 9s, a few more 8s, a few more 7s a few more 6s and 5s, and on down. I don't usually give scores of less than 2 or 3, simply because I haven't seen many photos that are this bad.
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05/24/2004 03:28:28 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by hopper:
The voting process for you must be about as much fun as cleaning the hair out of the shower drain :) Any challenge where the winning shots were only in the 6's by majority standards must have reduced you to tears. |
Hey, I pull out my own hair. If I remember correctly, it was one of your shots I agonized over a few challenges back. It did, however, get the popular vote and needed little assistance in the form of a single vote. ;-)
Some winning shots leave me cold, some images at 116th place or something like this may have my heart strings. It's a solitary job though. Who'd drink at my fountain? ;-)
Message edited by author 2004-05-24 15:33:02.
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05/24/2004 03:42:59 PM · #28 |
| I rarely give ones or twos. But my avg vote is 4.2xxx I think some challenges lead to bad photos which are very hard to give high scores for. Open challenges with 400+ entries also have a lot of poor photos IMO, and I too look at all and vote on all the shots. Challenges like 'habits' or 'tacky' for example make it harder to produce a good shot. It is an oxymoron to some degree. I think only a few folks can pull off takcy as a success. My vote is lets have more challenges that aim to make us good at photography. Not fufilll odd challenges. (ok i did submit for tacky and banana :) ). |
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05/24/2004 04:04:49 PM · #29 |
Great discussion here.
I tend to vote low, because I don't believe there's an equal quality distribution here. I think the average quality is a lot lower than the median quality. (just my opinion, the voting stats don't actually agree with me on this point) For example, I'll give a photo a 3 if I think it's possible I'm going to see (or have already seen) a photo that's three-times as good as it, roughly speaking. And usually, I do! For a successful run of voting, I want to find one, maybe two, 10's in the whole contest. Then I can feel good about having given 1's, because I've covered the whole scale. I think if too many people get 10's, you should be voting lower, so you can distinguish between the "great" 10's, and the "exceptional" 10's.
I found it really interesting to look through the challenge history page and see the average scores for each challenge. They rarely go above the real middle of 5.5, and sometimes they ever drop into the 4's.
A huge factor of it, as other's have mentioned, must be that for many this is a competition, and no one wants to vote so high that it'd risk their own shot doing less well. |
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05/24/2004 04:06:58 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by toddhead:
I know there are some really bad photos out here, but to have an average under 5 is pretty bad in my opinion. What is even more amazing to me is the people with lower averages usually fall into one of these categories:
1. They have never entered a challenge
2. They have no photos in their portfolio or just a few from challenges they have entered and done poorly in.
3. Judging by their picture, they are older (not intended to offend, just what I've noticed)
4. They have never done well in challenges.
There are exceptions, of course, but this is what I have found. I don't think it's quite fair to be so critical of other people's photos when your aren't brave enough to let others see your work. I know people have all the right in the world to vote how they want, but it still bothers me.
I have also found that a lot of the top rated photographers seem to rate other photos pretty high. Of the 15 top photographers on this site only 3 of them average under 5 and a few are above 6. I think this seems to show that people who really enjoy photography and really excel at it have more of an open mind as to what others are trying to express through their photos. Simply put, they have an open mind when viewing each individual picture.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? |
My average vote is 5.29. So far I've finished three challenges and been DQ for two (time/date error). I finished in the 13%, 92%, and 23%. I don't feel lower scores limit my ability to judge a photo's asthetics and I'm a pretty picky person and I know enough about art to make intelligent judgements. Here's a couple of analogies; I'm a so-so musician but I have a great ear for what works musically and I can usually make an intelligent defense for why I like or don't like a song, or arrangement. I'm a decent cook but not a master chef. However, I can discern the difference between an excellent dish and a poor one. I have enough food knowledge to figure out what makes something work, also.
So while I may have not reached the skill level of some of the top photographers on this site, I do know what I like and what makes good art. My top criteria for judging each and every challenge is: "Does this hold up as art outside the boundaries of the challenge?" It should have lasting appeal. I rarely give out good marks for effort if the effort doesn't result in a reasonably appealing photo. There is a saying I once saw quoted by Bill Berry, the drummer from R.E.M.. "You can't polish a turd". It's crude but it is something to keep in mind, always. In fact, I might just make it my new signature. :D |
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05/24/2004 09:41:37 PM · #31 |
I personally think that it really doesn't matter 'what' you vote...if you are a harsh critique, vote on only 20% or the entire challenge. My average vote given is 5.xx, I am a base-ass learning phtotographer that has not yet broken throught the 6.xxx barrier yet for any challenge...but I vote and I try my hardest to be consistant with my votes. And I feel this is all that can be asked from every-one that votes, "BE CONSISTANT" and it will all turn out in the end.
Well that's my humble rambling for the week...Cheers |
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05/24/2004 10:24:22 PM · #32 |
I think the average vote cast when used alone is a pretty worthless stat. It doesn't matter what scoring pattern a person uses as long as they use it fairly and consistently.
I do believe though, that when the average vote cast and average vote received are used together it often presents some interesting scenarios. imho, for those who both compete and vote, there are only three types. Those who see themselves as average and their average votes casts are near their average votes received; those who think they are less talented than the average person competing and their average vote cast is higher than their average vote received; and those who think they have more talent than the average person competing and their average vote cast is lower than their average vote received. There's really nothing wrong with being any one of those three groups.
However if one competes and votes in the same challenge I think there is something fundamentally wrong with setting an artificial bar of what "average" constitutes. The challenge history presents a historical chart of what both registered users and members have long considered to be average. There is no reason, logic, explanation, or excuse that justifies a person voting an "average" photograph as a 4 when they know the "average" photograph they submitted will receive a 5 or better. No words need explain what they are trying to accomplish.
Those who come only to participate by voting are a different category though. How they vote has no significance as long as they are consistent. Unlike those who compete and vote, they have nothing to gain.
I think of more import than how one votes is the frequency of the fraudulent vote. In recent challenges I've noticed the "vote scrubber" scrapping as high as 10+ percent of the votes. To me, that represents a fairly high number of people engaged in attempting to influence the results of the vote by fraud. 10 percent doesn't represent all of the fraud vote, only the portion that was foolish enough to be caught. Though it is a hopeless wish, I would like to see the accounts that engage in that activity banned.
Overall I think people should lighten up and realize that there really isn't anything at DPC worth getting worked up over. The are no prizes to be taken home, no cash, no worldly recognition, no magazine articles, no books, no trophys or plaques. Just a few pixels on your monitor, recognition from the members and registered users of DPC commending you on presenting an excellant photograph.
Best wishes to all that are competing in the current challenges.
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05/24/2004 10:35:17 PM · #33 |
Challenges Entered: 13
Votes Cast: 3274
Avg Vote Cast: 5.4835
Votes Received: 2967
Avg Vote Received: 5.2349
I'm just about "average" when it comes to voting and competing. I have voted on every photo in every challenge I have entered, as well as two I did not enter. I always find a shot or two (or three or four) that are 10s, and I rarely have 1's or 2's, but there have been a few. Reading the previous posts in this thread got me to thinking, and I can say with all honesty that while I am voting on the challenges, my own photo rarely crosses my mind. I can't imagine voting others down just so my photo can do better. I guess I'm just not that competitive. I do, however, want to improve my photography skills (as we all do), and I rather enjoy seeing all the photos in a challenge, from the terrific to the terrible, so that I can find ways to imitate (or not, as the case may be) and improve.
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05/24/2004 10:41:03 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Challenges Entered: 13
Votes Cast: 3274
Avg Vote Cast: 5.4835
Votes Received: 2967
Avg Vote Received: 5.2349
I'm just about "average" when it comes to voting and competing. I have voted on every photo in every challenge I have entered, as well as two I did not enter. I always find a shot or two (or three or four) that are 10s, and I rarely have 1's or 2's, but there have been a few. Reading the previous posts in this thread got me to thinking, and I can say with all honesty that while I am voting on the challenges, my own photo rarely crosses my mind. I can't imagine voting others down just so my photo can do better. I guess I'm just not that competitive. I do, however, want to improve my photography skills (as we all do), and I rather enjoy seeing all the photos in a challenge, from the terrific to the terrible, so that I can find ways to imitate (or not, as the case may be) and improve. |
Nah, you're not average Laurie! "Out of Proportion" was a great photograph and well deserving of a top 10 finish. |
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05/24/2004 10:44:47 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by toddhead:
I have also found that a lot of the top rated photographers seem to rate other photos pretty high. Of the 15 top photographers on this site only 3 of them average under 5 and a few are above 6. I think this seems to show that people who really enjoy photography and really excel at it have more of an open mind as to what others are trying to express through their photos. Simply put, they have an open mind when viewing each individual picture.
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I think you are correct. I always say that this site is just as much about taking good photography as it is recognizing good photography. I think some of the people who give higher average scores recognize the challenges presented by each photograph that the novice might miss.... like noticing that a photo was taken well dispite complicated or dynamic lighting situation.
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05/24/2004 11:27:55 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Also, some of the people who have been here for a while recognize that the tastes of the voters tend toward the "popular" as opposed to being strictly quality oriented. They haven chosen not to play to the masses, and thus they have a lower Avg Vote Received than they possibly could have. I didn't understand this type of thinking when I first got here but may be heading in that direction after about ten months of observing how things work around here. Often I feel that the ribbon wining photos just don't appeal to me even if done well.
BTW, nice job. They doing any hiring there? |
I haven't been here that long (don't judge by my profile --- I signed up ages ago but then forgot about it ;D) and I'm already realizing I'm coming from a very different asthetic background then what the voting on this site reveals is the majority's asthetic. My social and working life has revoloved around a pretty arty crowd of people (actors, artists, indie musicians, dancers,filmakers, writers,) and I've been exposed to a very broad range of work in all of those categories. Rhode Island has one of the largest populations of working artist per capita in the US and Providence is the center of a lot of that. Not all of what I've experienced has been great or to my taste (particulalry in the theater category) but I have a much broader mind when it comes to judging art of any kind than the average digital photo hobbyist (judging by this site, anyway).
After seeing the scores for my Banana entry and having judged 99% of the other entries, I've come to the decision to keep entering the challenges for the structure they provide me in improving my work and actually getting work done. @#@&* the ribbon I say. Of course, I'm human so I'll be tickled to see another photo of mine do as well as my Opposites photo did. :D
I'm just saying I'm going to try really hard not to quit in frustration and to keep my perspective on things.
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05/24/2004 11:37:01 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by ACPhotoDesign:
Very interesting topic. I'm new here and have voted on three challenges so far. I think I voted a bit too high and am thinking of shifting the curve down a bit to give myself more leeway in singling out the very top shots. In future I plan to give very few 10 scores and less 9s and 8s and more 2s and 3s to allow for a wider range. The first few challenges I was learning. It was helpful to get a display of all of my votes together at the end of my voting. This helped me to better sort out my votes. I changed some of my votes when I saw the other images I'd given the same value. I'm sure I'll do more of this when I vote again on the unusual viewpoint challenge. It's all new to me but I'm having a good time. I'm so glad I found this site. Ann |
I was happy to discover the page that displays the thumbnails arranged by the rating number. I discovered it accidently after voting on all the photos in one of the recent challenges. I didn't even know you could adjust a vote. Now I look through all the entries and vote on as many as I can stand looking at in one sitting. Then I look through the ones I''ve voted on and leave comments and occasionally adjust my voting after I've had a second look. Sometimes I'll give a slightly higher score, sometimes lower. I try to leave as many comments as possible for the images I give 4 or less to. I figure I can always browse through them later and catch up on any I missed. I like waiting to leave the comments because I'm less inclined to make a knee-jerk type of comment. I have ADHD and this system really helps me avoid unintentionally hurting someone's feelings (most of the time).
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05/24/2004 11:56:28 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Puts me in mind of a scene from " This is Spinal Tap" where the dials on the amplifiers have been adjusted to go to 11 because " eleven is bigger than ten, you see?"
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Love, love, love that movie. I vote fives on a photo that I consider average. I usually don't like these photos but I don't hate them. I give a four if my negative feeling is a little more extreme then, "ah, whatever...". I give a three if they are just really bad and show no photographic merit, even as a snap shot (I'll give a five to a better than average snap shot). I rarely give out twos and ones but I have done.
On the higher range, if I see a photo that makes me think, "Hmmm...this is something, " but has some technical flaws I'll give it a six. In other words, if it engenders more than an apathetic reaction in the direction of positive. I give a 7 or 8 to a photo I that I actually like on some degree but isn't flawless. I've given out a few 9's and maybe one or two 10s. A 9 or 10 is a photo that I would consider buying and hanging on my wall.
I'm surprised when I get 9's and 10's because I'm not sure I would give me that high a score. ;D I don't think any of my entries have deserved less than a five but I've gotten plenty. I've gotten 1's and 2's and I think that is ridiculous. It doesn't make me feel bad because I've seen far superior work to mine get these scores. Some people are just ridiculous. My husband definitely believes there are people who will give the obviously good photos ridiculous scores to improve their own chances. I'm cynical enough to believe that of some people but if my own voting is anything to go by, I think most people try to be as objective as possible.
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05/25/2004 12:13:09 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
I vote fives on a photo that I consider average.... |
What she said! Both paragraphs...I couldn't have said it better except for the husband part (in my case wife). |
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05/25/2004 12:16:45 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
When I have to compare a Stieglitz, a ManRay with, say, a Beguin, a grigirgirl and an overexposed out-of-focus image of a mass-produced gift shop item with a rainbow for a frame or a suggestive image of a semi-nude female lacking any expression, character or other human trace but her commercilized cliché of a form, when I have to choose critically from these, a scale of 1 - 100 would be more to my liking. |
I got the Stieglitz and ManRay reference (I have a friend who had ManRay as his vanity plate :D) but you lost me with Beguin (I only know the song Begin the Beguin) and grigigirl. But I agree that if I was using the 1-10 scale to judge a photo and included my knowledge of truly master photographers I would be giving out a lot of 1s, 2s, and 3s. I'd probably never give out an 7 or 8, let alone a 9 or 10. I guess I'm using a frame of reference that leaves out the true artists but includes good commercial work. I have yet to see to many digital photographics that really stand out in terms of hinting at a really unique and definable style. I've seen some really good commercial work but nothing that stands out as museum quality (as I've often seen left in comments). I have to judge by the quality of exhibits I've actually seen and nothing I've seen here approaches any of those exhibits in terms of artistic vision. There's nothing wrong with good commercial photography which is why I allow a little more latitude. I adjust my view of the 1-10 scale to suit this forum. I'm not expecting to find a Diane Arbus, Gary Winograd, Robert Frank, Cindy Sherman, or Jock Sturges on this site (a few of my personal favorites). I would be thrilled and tickled if I did but I'm not holding my breath. |
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05/25/2004 12:24:43 AM · #41 |
| ZeusZen, I've just added you to my favorites so I can browse through your work at my leisure. I can tell by the few I've looked at that I'm going to pleasantly surprised. :D |
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05/25/2004 12:28:32 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by sailracer_98:
I didn't say I had never seen a photo that didn't deserve a ten. In the challenges I have voted on I haven't seen any. There are some on this site that would probably have earned a 10 from me such as:
or
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LOL! These look like just the sort of photos that consistantly get high scores. They are good, don't get me wrong, but they are also kind of 'been there, seen that'. There's a certain snooze factor involved in viewing the umpteenth pristing macro of a bug or flower or, better yet, a bug on a flower. I understand the temptation to take these photos but I'm starting to become de-sensitized to them after voting on a few challenges.
Message edited by author 2004-05-25 00:29:19. |
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05/25/2004 12:38:30 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by ellamay:
My vote is lets have more challenges that aim to make us good at photography. Not fufilll odd challenges. (ok i did submit for tacky and banana :) ). |
I submitted for Banana.It does seem like a silly challenge but it can still result in a good photoas a small percentage of the entries illustrate. Perhaps not a spectacular one but we only had 24 hours! The challenge for me was not to go for the obvious and make a good photo that stands up outside the challenge (that is always my goal and always how I judge a photo). I think I managed to make a real photograph that works universally but maybe voters are thinking the dressed up and sunbathing bananas required more effort. :D Sorry to you folks that know who you are...I couldn't resist because I actually saw both these things done more than once. I have no idea how they are doing in the ranking. I realize that it was short notice but..... |
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05/25/2004 12:52:34 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
I think the average vote cast when used alone is a pretty worthless stat. It doesn't matter what scoring pattern a person uses as long as they use it fairly and consistently.
I do believe though, that when the average vote cast and average vote received are used together it often presents some interesting scenarios. imho, for those who both compete and vote, there are only three types. Those who see themselves as average and their average votes casts are near their average votes received;....There's really nothing wrong with being any one of those three groups.
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I'm not sure how I fit in this scenario. My averages match up pretty evenly so far:
Challenges Entered: 3
Votes Cast: 788
Avg Vote Cast: 5.2931
Votes Received: 641
Avg Vote Received: 5.2246
I think I see myself as pretty average at this point, yet I give a lot of photos I consider to be not as good as mine 5s. My average vote received is a tiny fraction less than my average cast. Your theory suggest that I should be giving a lot more photos a 4. I guess I'm more generous than I thought. :D
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05/25/2004 12:21:45 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by hopper:
I've looked into this myself and come up with the following conclusion:
If mean guy is giving out 4's to average photos and nice guy is giving out 6's to average photos, then great photos get 8's from mean guy and 10's from nice guy. As long as both guys are being consistent in thier voting - the best submissions will win.
Since there's no way of judging consistency by looking a profile, I just hope for the best :) Generally speaking, I usually agree with the masses ... but there is always at least one shot which I think should have won and ended up in 16th place.
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People don't take in account photo taking dificulties,like that one taken in a dark club at 1/60 shutter speed with no flash!Not to mention at 320 mm focal !
It is sad when a dead bug beats awesome photos ! |
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05/25/2004 12:30:26 PM · #46 |
I find it helps to think of your final score, or average cast or whatever, as a percentage rather than an 'out of ten'. Thus your score of 8.6 equates to 86%, and so on. A score of 4, 40%. It's only a matter of perception, after all (well, and numeracy, but that's never a useful argument to have).
For myself, I find the paucity and the poverty of the comments far more disturbing, especially when you look at the vast tracts people write in the forums.
E
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05/25/2004 01:18:25 PM · #47 |
Interesting the way people allocate votes, everyone does it differently.
I usually spend about 30 mins going through every submission, ususlly voting 7 max to 4 min, no comments at this stage. Sometime later in the week I'll go back and look at the 7's and choose my top 2 or 3. I may allocate a 10 but rarely, usually these top 2 to 3 images will be 9's or 8's. I'll then look for my second cat images, maybe upto 15 os so, these will be allocated 7's or 8's.
The vast majority will sit in 6's, 5's or 4's. These will include good images which don't meet the challenge, good images with flaws right down to the obvious 'snaps'.
3s, 2's and 1's - I do allocate these, they tend to be the ones where there is no obvious thought behind them, or are just so dull that I dispair.
I think my average score given is 5.0062 at the moment which is what I would expect.
Message edited by author 2004-05-25 13:20:22. |
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05/25/2004 01:55:44 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Falc:
Interesting the way people allocate votes, everyone does it differently.
I usually spend about 30 mins going through every submission, ususlly voting 7 max to 4 min, no comments at this stage. Sometime later in the week I'll go back and look at the 7's and choose my top 2 or 3. I may allocate a 10 but rarely, usually these top 2 to 3 images will be 9's or 8's. I'll then look for my second cat images, maybe upto 15 os so, these will be allocated 7's or 8's.
The vast majority will sit in 6's, 5's or 4's. These will include good images which don't meet the challenge, good images with flaws right down to the obvious 'snaps'.
3s, 2's and 1's - I do allocate these, they tend to be the ones where there is no obvious thought behind them, or are just so dull that I dispair.
I think my average score given is 5.0062 at the moment which is what I would expect. |
This is an interesting way to vote, but it virtually assures you that you will always vote pictures against one another, rather than on their own merit. It's like grading on a bell curve -- you refuse to give out as many As or 10s as are deserved; instead, you pit contestants against one another and only give the best a good grade.
This means that a picture will only be rated depending on the quality of other contestants...that's the downside of the bell curve system -- rather than be judged on your own merit, you are judged on how well other contestans did against your work. |
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05/25/2004 04:14:22 PM · #49 |
| I guess I never looked at it that way, but yes you are right in a way. Though I will say that sometimes the bell curve can end up higher or lower depending on the overall quality of submissions. - Habits was a low curve for sure. |
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