Modified expert - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/05/2013 01:31:44 PM · #1

This is a website question, a question about levels of editing, and a latent challenge suggestion... and at the risk of opening a can of "minimalbasicadvancedexpert" worms, here goes.

In expert challenges, it is not a rule, and there are exceptions, but for the most part, voters seem to expect significant manipulation, that is, "magic" or perhaps fantasy. And these are voted the highest- challenge after challenge. "Photographic integrity" is a veritable joke, while graphic fantasy creativity, as awesome as it may be, reigns supreme and has become the baseline.

But- what if you just want to move a tree or a person out of your shot,more than a legal "repair cloning" a significant element, but otherwise it would be to the level of advanced editing? Maybe a black background would look better, and can tastefully be done, without anyone questioning the photographic integrity. Is there no level of editing or challenges for that circumstance? It appears that we squander the technology of photoshopping for all but "evil"- and allow it not for "good."

Now the question is- is there a way to maintain the graphic fantasy shots, but perhaps expand the advanced category to allow for significant limitations, or has that ship proverbially sailed(with a guy with firefly wings sitting on the deck in a glass jar)?

RyanW

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

04/05/2013 01:39:53 PM · #2

i think the ship has sailed.
i've done what you talk about in challenges on occasion; once i was dq'd, but feel that this is such a grey area that other times i've seen the same thing done by others to a larger degree but been ruled "OK!".

this is a can of worms that many people feel strongly about - on both sides - so be prepared for the storm that may be unleashed.

personally, i don't see the problem with this if it does not *drastically* alter the image. that said: removing a power line, or even the top of a power pole, from a landscape image does not *drastically* alter it to me.
if the pole was 3" from the camera and blocking out most of the image and you removed that part you'd call it a "crop" (and a bad photo) but the impact to the view would be no different as the remainder of the image seen would be the same.

if you photoshop(tm) out, say the empire state building from the NYC skyline, or the big building in seattle, those are prominent changes as they are landmarks that people expect to see in a picture of that area.
anyways, i agree with you that expert editing rulesets are seemingly won 99.9% of the time by images that would be banned in anything else due to digitally creating a new picture impossible to exist otherwise. people here want eye candy, not technical merits or shown growth of an individual over time.

sjhuls

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/05/2013 01:40:54 PM · #3

I actually like this idea it would be nice to swap out a sky or clone out a tree or simply add a texture to the photograph.

I would think it could be done pretty simply by allowing everything you can do in expert but limit the number of photos you could use to say 3-5 and no duplication of an image more than 3-5. We still might get a few fantasy type images but when I do those types of shots I usually around 10 or more and duplicate them many times over.

sjhuls

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/05/2013 01:46:14 PM · #4

For example on this challenge I would have much rather have entered this with a different sky:

New sky:

what I entered:

Message edited by author 2013-04-05 13:46:41.

blindjustice

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/05/2013 01:55:22 PM · #5

Originally posted by sjhuls:

For example on this challenge I would have much rather have entered this with a different sky:

New sky:

what I entered:

Great example- swapping a sky. And sjhuls, you certainly would be someone who would benefit from exactly the level of editing I am talking about. Enhancing and "painting" in PS but without fantasy.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/05/2013 02:38:22 PM · #6

i would love to expand advanced to allow for such improvements but its not going to happen, and really it shouldn't, contradictory i know.

for as much as love editing, honestly its way too easy to create a great shot when you can replace elements that don't look right. its up to you to capture that moment and not make it. that's what expert is for, or has become, like it or not.

it would not be a challenge at all for some folks to create amazing images with what you ask, it would create a great divide with the editing skills here, i think those that have mastered selections would dominate.

personally I'm pressing the boundaries of the advanced skill set, probably to the chagrin of my TPL teammates, but i have no idea how far we are allowed to push cloning and liquify, IMO im within the realm of allowance as others have weighed in, but i have no official ruling yet.

ETA: like keeps getting told to me, there is nothing stopping you from from editing your images, there is photography outside of DPC. We need constraint so that we all play on the same field.

Message edited by author 2013-04-05 14:47:24.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/05/2013 02:57:53 PM · #7

It is funny how often in normal work we use advanced editing to add in elements which will service the image while maintaining its reality, while the advanced editing rule set here is seen as an exercise in fantasy.

Not a great shot, but made better by swapping out the sky, which was blownout and grey, and the reflections of the cars which were blurred.

Long ago I was fascinated by Worth 1000 and lo and behold, DPC is slowly drifting into their ground. It would be nice if you could use all the tools available to refine an image while still keeping it photographic in nature, but I don't think it is going to happen here.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/05/2013 03:05:38 PM · #8

the brickwall wasn't there originally...

//500px.com/photo/29279211

Message edited by author 2013-04-05 15:09:12.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

04/05/2013 03:06:52 PM · #9

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

... while the advanced editing rule set here is seen as an exercise in fantasy.

You mean the Expert editing set?

One way to try for this would be to have a challenge using the Expert editing rules which does not invite fantastical images, something maybe like "Realistic Landscape" which would allow something like inserting a nice sky or sunset behind a better-exposed foreground, but without requiring a herd of unicorns passing through ...

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/05/2013 03:09:46 PM · #10

Yes Paul, thanks for the correction.

I would be interested to see what would come out of a challenge with the expert rules that asked for a realistic image.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/05/2013 03:39:26 PM · #11

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

I would be interested to see what would come out of a challenge with the expert rules that asked for a realistic image.

Here's a possible example from ten years ago ... the first image is what I entered in a challenge, the second how I modified it (not that well, either) to post as a print image. The second shot I used to create the composite was shot from the same perspective as the first, just higher up on the hills, and both were shot the same day.

Entry:

Modified (preview image)

This one is more recent ...

Message edited by author 2013-04-05 15:42:20.

Sirashley

Nikon D7200

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G IF-ED VR

04/05/2013 03:45:22 PM · #12

I would to see a new rule set that falls between advanced and expert. The new ruleset would basically be advanced, plus the ability to combine multiple frames of different scenes. This would allow for star trails, sequences, and other interesting effects. Do not allow drawing or creating new areas. This would give allot more flexibility while still keeping it more photographic in nature... Just my two cents

Alex_Petrini

Sony Alpha a7R III

Sony FE 24-70mm f/2.8 GM

04/05/2013 03:59:32 PM · #13

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Long ago I was fascinated by Worth 1000 and lo and behold, DPC is slowly drifting into their ground.

I can't understand how this place could go towards the examples you mentioned. During the months when we have had the most expert editing challenges they were 3 or 4 (when the whole amount of challenges was at least 13 - 3 weekly challenges and a FS). I agree that we should have an expert challenge every 10 or 14 days because this is still a photography site, but I can't understand how having some expert challenges can lead this site far from where it started.

+1 for

Sirashley's suggestion. A new ruleset between advanced and expert would be ok. I really hope there will be no chance of having an extended advanced - changing the sky is like doing another photo IMO.

04/05/2013 04:21:48 PM · #14

i blame Gyaban.

if he wasn't so good at showing us his imagination the bar wouldn't be set so high to try to outdo him.

MinsoPhoto

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

04/05/2013 05:38:06 PM · #15

Most of my stuff nowadays involves cloning or adding stuff so I would really like to see advanced editing go that route.

snaffles

Nikon D7100

04/05/2013 07:33:33 PM · #16

First off I haven't read this thread through, just jumping in with both feet like always.

If I recall correctly, Worth1K has a whole other category for Photorealistic PhotoChop contests. I agree with

Mike_311, Christophe set the bar so high here, not many of us have the sheer dedication, or skillset, photographic or PS-wise, to create anything close to what he can and does. I admire him greatly for what he does and can only wonder at how he manages to pull it off, having a ft job and family to juggle too.

Howzabout an 'Aspiring Expert' category for the rest of us? More than Advanced (which I know allows for 10 captures, so you can hypothetically PC together a meisterwerk...which favours those who are good at that, but not the single-capture numbnuts here) but not with the bar set as high as Expert currently seems to demand?

Not trying to dumb the site down at all, but do want to make Expert a little more accessible. It's like sending in a cocky but rank amateur in MMA into a caged match against George St-Pierre. No contest at all.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/05/2013 08:27:19 PM · #17

It is incredibly difficult to create a rule set which is enforcable by objective criteria. You are all welcome to try.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

04/05/2013 08:42:25 PM · #18

personally i enjoy trying to unseat the king, it gives me something to strive towards. i don't need another category.

snaffles

Nikon D7100

04/06/2013 09:00:13 AM · #19

Originally posted by mike_311:

personally i enjoy trying to unseat the king, it gives me something to strive towards. i don't need another category.

I suppose you're right, does give the rest of us a goal. And maybe I should plan out my attempts at Expert a bit better so not scrambling on the last day!!