Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

03/21/2013 06:19:49 PM · #6051

Just out of curiosity

myqyl, when did you get your law degree and in what field do you practice?

Ray

03/21/2013 06:43:05 PM · #6052

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Just out of curiosity myqyl, when did you get your law degree and in what field do you practice?

Ray

degrees are over rated... What I say I base on having read the US Constitution and paying attention to the decisions handed down.

Do you really feel someone needs a degree to know something? My guess is you work for a University?

btw ~ What I said applies down here, south of the border... I'm not to clear on how things work up North. I heard some woman up your way was suing a Muslim barber for refusing to cut her hair due to religious tenants. How'd that one pan out? I haven't been North-side in a few months.

Olympus 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro

03/21/2013 06:55:56 PM · #6053

Originally posted by Ann:

Originally posted by Nullix:

Let's say I don't believe in polygamy on religious grounds. A polygamist wants me to photograph their wedding. To practice my religion properly, I cannot participate is such a marriage. If I refuse, I can be sued. Is that right?

I guess I would wonder what kind of crazy religion would send you to hell for taking a picture of someone whose religion you disagree with.

No offense, but you have a rather skewed idea of what drives religious folks to live as they do. No one said anything about being sent to hell for taking pictures at a gay wedding. Religious people want to please God, not because it'll get us into Heaven or keep us out of Hell, but simply because it is pleasing to God.

I'll agree that it's a tad odd to believe God would be offended by participating in a gay wedding, but I have to commend the folks that put their beliefs and ethics ahead of their financial gain. If someone is opposed to war, should they be required to take a job photographing a military wedding? Should animal rights photographers be required to shoot VooDoo rituals with animal sacrifices? Should a Gay African American Jew be required to work a KKK wedding?

Rights go both ways... Gays have the right to marry (as stated in the 14th Amendment) and everyone else has the right not to wish them well or help them out (as stated in the 1st).

Ann

Olympus OM-D E-M1

03/21/2013 07:21:55 PM · #6054

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by Ann:

Originally posted by Nullix:

Let's say I don't believe in polygamy on religious grounds. A polygamist wants me to photograph their wedding. To practice my religion properly, I cannot participate is such a marriage. If I refuse, I can be sued. Is that right?

I guess I would wonder what kind of crazy religion would send you to hell for taking a picture of someone whose religion you disagree with.

No offense, but you have a rather skewed idea of what drives religious folks to live as they do. No one said anything about being sent to hell for taking pictures at a gay wedding. Religious people want to please God, not because it'll get us into Heaven or keep us out of Hell, but simply because it is pleasing to God.

I'll agree that it's a tad odd to believe God would be offended by participating in a gay wedding, but I have to commend the folks that put their beliefs and ethics ahead of their financial gain. If someone is opposed to war, should they be required to take a job photographing a military wedding? Should animal rights photographers be required to shoot VooDoo rituals with animal sacrifices? Should a Gay African American Jew be required to work a KKK wedding?

Rights go both ways... Gays have the right to marry (as stated in the 14th Amendment) and everyone else has the right not to wish them well or help them out (as stated in the 1st).

Well, it was a lame attempt at humor, because I know that wasn't Nullix' intent, but if you take Christ's commandment to "judge not, lest ye be judged" seriously, then yes, he should photograph the wedding. To do otherwise is passing judgement. I personally wouldn't photograph the KKK wedding because of fear for my own personal safety, but if I were in the wedding photography business, and some anti-gay fundamentalist asked me to photograph their wedding, I would do it. One thing I know is that the best way to lead is by example, and I believe in treating all people, not just the people I agree with, with the respect I deserve myself.

Okay, I draw the line at Fred Phelps, though. I couldn't shoot his wedding. I doubt that Jesus Christ could bring himself to shoot Fred Phelps' wedding.

Olympus 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro

03/21/2013 07:30:30 PM · #6055

Originally posted by Ann:

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by Ann:

Originally posted by Nullix:

Let's say I don't believe in polygamy on religious grounds. A polygamist wants me to photograph their wedding. To practice my religion properly, I cannot participate is such a marriage. If I refuse, I can be sued. Is that right?

I guess I would wonder what kind of crazy religion would send you to hell for taking a picture of someone whose religion you disagree with.

No offense, but you have a rather skewed idea of what drives religious folks to live as they do. No one said anything about being sent to hell for taking pictures at a gay wedding. Religious people want to please God, not because it'll get us into Heaven or keep us out of Hell, but simply because it is pleasing to God.

I'll agree that it's a tad odd to believe God would be offended by participating in a gay wedding, but I have to commend the folks that put their beliefs and ethics ahead of their financial gain. If someone is opposed to war, should they be required to take a job photographing a military wedding? Should animal rights photographers be required to shoot VooDoo rituals with animal sacrifices? Should a Gay African American Jew be required to work a KKK wedding?

Rights go both ways... Gays have the right to marry (as stated in the 14th Amendment) and everyone else has the right not to wish them well or help them out (as stated in the 1st).

Well, it was a lame attempt at humor, because I know that wasn't Nullix' intent, but if you take Christ's commandment to "judge not, lest ye be judged" seriously, then yes, he should photograph the wedding. To do otherwise is passing judgement. I personally wouldn't photograph the KKK wedding because of fear for my own personal safety, but if I were in the wedding photography business, and some anti-gay fundamentalist asked me to photograph their wedding, I would do it. One thing I know is that the best way to lead is by example, and I believe in treating all people, not just the people I agree with, with the respect I deserve myself.

Okay, I draw the line at Fred Phelps, though. I couldn't shoot his wedding. I doubt that Jesus Christ could bring himself to shoot Fred Phelps' wedding.

LoL...

Seen this?

Gotta love that old 2 edged First Amendment :)

Ann

Olympus OM-D E-M1

03/21/2013 08:01:28 PM · #6056

Originally posted by myqyl:

LoL...

Seen this?

Gotta love that old 2 edged First Amendment :)

I did see that. Hilarious.

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

03/22/2013 04:01:25 PM · #6057

Originally posted by Ann:

The phrase, "...judge not, least you be judged..." is from Matthew 7:1-2. It speaks warning of the judgements you give, you'll also be judged the same way. It doesn't say, don't judge ever.

I wasn't trying to be lame or use humor. This is a really tough question. I was trying to change the scenario and remove he emotional responses and baggage behind the "gay" label. I guess that didn't work.

This thread started 5 years ago, and I hope I'm a little less "self-righteous" about things. I'm also trying to be less of an a$$hole.

Olympus 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro

03/22/2013 04:32:34 PM · #6058

Originally posted by Nullix:

I wasn't trying to be lame or use humor. This is a really tough question. I was trying to change the scenario and remove he emotional responses and baggage behind the "gay" label. I guess that didn't work.

I might be wrong but I think Ann was speaking of her own lame attempt at humor (Disclaimer : Once I knew it was humor I didn't think it was all that lame... Quite funny actually) and not that she was saying you had made a lame attempt at it.

But I could be wrong...

Originally posted by Nullix:

The phrase, "...judge not, least you be judged..." is from Matthew 7:1-2. It speaks warning of the judgements you give, you'll also be judged the same way. It doesn't say, don't judge ever.

Quite true, however the Lord also tells us to attend to the log in our own eye before attempting to help our brethren remove the splinter from theirs, and that those of us without sin should be the first one to cast stones at those we consider sexually immoral. Too often many of us overlook these to justify our desire to "correct" sinners. Correcting sinners is a VERY good idea but we always need to start with the one in the mirror. I'm not done with that guy yet so I'll be leaving everyone else in the vastly more capable hands of Jesus...

God bless

Ann

Olympus OM-D E-M1

03/22/2013 05:11:49 PM · #6059

Originally posted by myqyl:

You are correct, it was my flat footed attempt at humor.

This discussion is just getting interesting, and Nullix and myqyl have made good points, but I don't have time to comment this afternoon. Back later....

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

03/24/2013 07:12:04 AM · #6060

Originally posted by myqyl:

Do you really feel someone needs a degree to know something? My guess is you work for a University?

I never said that... the question raised was whether you have a degree in Law. In order to dole out informed opinions on legal matters, it would seem only logical that one would have an extensive background in that field and by extension, several years of extensive studies in that realm. I happen to be the proud owner of some rather impressive camera gear and a really good stove, but would never consider myself knowledgeable enough to give an informed opinion on either of these matters.

As for guessing that I work for a university you would be absolutely wrong. I did attend long enough to consider myself as part of the decorum and after many years of studies did manage to get a few degrees. I did however spend 30 years working in the RCMP and since 911 have worked exclusively in the realm of security.

[/quote] ... I heard some woman up your way was suing a Muslim barber for refusing to cut her hair due to religious tenants. How'd that one pan out? [/quote]

I do believe that the Human Rights Commission has yet to render a decision on that one.

Ray

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

03/24/2013 08:50:22 AM · #6061

Originally posted by myqyl:

Be nice to people. That's all that God actually asks despite the stuff you may hear on AM radio in the Midwest.

I'd argue i'm nicer than most bible bearers. I am nice because i want to be, not because the bible tells me to out of fear of disappointing god.

im not saying you or anyone else isn't, especially Christians, they can be some of the most selfless people on the planet, but there is a big hypocrisy in there, i see this in members of my own family who are very nice and tolerant, but very selective, they want to help certain people but not all. they pick and choose their charities.

how about just be nice and tolerant to everyone because that just seems the right thing to do, not because some book reminds you too. Then again i grew up in faith and was taught to be kind to people because the bible told me too so its ingrained in me, i just stopped believing the stories were true and now i now i have the ability not to discriminate a class of people deemed to be sinners by that same book.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

03/24/2013 12:03:41 PM · #6062

Originally posted by mike_311:

how about just be nice and tolerant to everyone because that just seems the right thing to do, not because some book reminds you too.

That's a pretty dismissive thing to say; as if the only valid conduct is arrived at independently of any outside influence, that there is something WRONG with adhering to a social norm. It doesn't make sense to act as if, in all cases, the Book is coercive, *causing* people to behave in a way they otherwise wouldn't. It's equally possible to see the Book as supportive, *reinforcing* that which is good in people...

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

03/24/2013 12:22:49 PM · #6063

Originally posted by Ann:

Ah. The Internet is horrible at conveying humor. Maybe we should just tags and simley faces 8)

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

03/24/2013 01:14:58 PM · #6064

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by mike_311:
how about just be nice and tolerant to everyone because that just seems the right thing to do, not because some book reminds you too.

That's a pretty dismissive thing to say; as if the only valid conduct is arrived at independently of any outside influence, that there is something WRONG with adhering to a social norm. It doesn't make sense to act as if, in all cases, the Book is coercive, *causing* people to behave in a way they otherwise wouldn't. It's equally possible to see the Book as supportive, *reinforcing* that which is good in people...

isn't that what i said?

i said that the bible influenced my moral conduct however it wasn't until i was able to see past its literacy that i no longer have a conflict. it became another book that had a good message.

its ok to use the bible as a guide, but once you start thinking, "the bible says homosexuality is a sin, therefore gays are sinners and i refuse to condone the behavior" even though there really isn't anything wrong with the behavior.

unless of course you are using your religion to mask the fact that homosexuality makes you uncomfortable.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

03/24/2013 03:13:56 PM · #6065

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by mike_311:
how about just be nice and tolerant to everyone because that just seems the right thing to do, not because some book reminds you too.

That's a pretty dismissive thing to say; as if the only valid conduct is arrived at independently of any outside influence, that there is something WRONG with adhering to a social norm. It doesn't make sense to act as if, in all cases, the Book is coercive, *causing* people to behave in a way they otherwise wouldn't. It's equally possible to see the Book as supportive, *reinforcing* that which is good in people...

isn't that what i said?

i said that the bible influenced my moral conduct however it wasn't until i was able to see past its literacy that i no longer have a conflict. it became another book that had a good message.

its ok to use the bible as a guide, but once you start thinking, "the bible says homosexuality is a sin, therefore gays are sinners and i refuse to condone the behavior" even though there really isn't anything wrong with the behavior.

unless of course you are using your religion to mask the fact that homosexuality makes you uncomfortable.

I was taking my cue from the earlier sentence of that post, where you'd said "most bible bearers", so I read the whole thing as saying "most Christians, to the extent they are nice, are only nice because the Bible commands it."

If I misunderstood, my apologies.

03/24/2013 03:48:40 PM · #6066

yes you misunderstood but its not like i made the point clearly either :)

03/24/2013 06:28:04 PM · #6067

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

03/24/2013 11:43:18 PM · #6068

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by myqyl:
Be nice to people. That's all that God actually asks despite the stuff you may hear on AM radio in the Midwest.

I'd argue i'm nicer than most bible bearers. I am nice because i want to be, not because the bible tells me to out of fear of disappointing god.

im not saying you or anyone else isn't, especially Christians, they can be some of the most selfless people on the planet, but there is a big hypocrisy in there, i see this in members of my own family who are very nice and tolerant, but very selective, they want to help certain people but not all. they pick and choose their charities.

how about just be nice and tolerant to everyone because that just seems the right thing to do, not because some book reminds you too. Then again i grew up in faith and was taught to be kind to people because the bible told me too so its ingrained in me, i just stopped believing the stories were true and now i now i have the ability not to discriminate a class of people deemed to be sinners by that same book.

Personaly I don't care why people are nice, as long as they are. I don't understand why it bothers you that some folks are nice becaude they learned it from the Bible, but if that's your thing, so be it. I'm just glad to hear that you live your life in such a way that I don't have to worry about your eternity... See you there.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

03/25/2013 07:27:49 AM · #6069

Originally posted by myqyl:

Be nice to people. That's all that God actually asks despite the stuff you may hear on AM radio in the Midwest.

Originally posted by mike_311:

And I'd like to say that many people with Mike's outlook are a lot more honest because they hold themselves accountable to a standard of decency rather than because a book tells them to....

I've been around my share of Saturday night sinners/Sunday morning saints enough that the hypocrisy of it gives me a bad taste.

It seems odd to me that the thing that comes to mind for me all too often when talking about following a religious order is the whole carrot & stick thing.....72 virgins, eternal life?

How about because we're supposed to be decent and kind to those we walk this path of life with instead of for a reward later?

03/25/2013 07:40:34 AM · #6070

Originally posted by myqyl:

I don't understand why it bothers you that some folks are nice becaude they learned it from the Bible, but if that's your thing, so be it.

the only reason it bothers me is because that by following that same book, they could be treating others poorly, in this case, gays. why the contradiction?

Dr. Seuss has great morals in his books too but imagine if he was a cookoo like L. Ron Hubbard. People would be running around thinking their were whos and huffalumps among us.

You absolutely cannot say that the bible is 100% accurate and as such it should not be used as the standard that everyone lives their life by. You can if you want to, but you cannot hold others to that standard and I don't care if that the way its been done for 1000s of years.

Message edited by author 2013-03-25 07:41:12.

scalvert

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

03/25/2013 09:15:47 AM · #6071

Originally posted by myqyl:

I don't understand why it bothers you that some folks are nice becaude they learned it from the Bible

Being nice, for whatever reason, never bothered anyone. It's NOT being nice to others of differing faith, gender, race or sexual orientation specifically because they learned it from the Bible that causes problems.

Apple iPhone 5

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

03/25/2013 09:24:09 AM · #6072

Originally posted by mike_311:

Dr. Seuss has great morals in his books too but imagine if he was a cookoo like L. Ron Hubbard. People would be running around thinking their were whos and huffalumps among us.

The Dr. Seuss books are more credible than the bible. At least Dr. Seuss exists.

For me, 'Horton Hears a Who' carries a far more valuable and pertinent moral message than anything in the bible. Plus, it doesn't use ridiculous language to convey it.

Nullix