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02/07/2013 05:16:47 AM · #1 |
As DPCers I think we work on 3 simultaneous different levels.
1. We want acceptance of our peers and strive to produce something that will make others think we are good photographers. This drives our desire to improve and provides a useful excuse for poor entries, the 'I'm just here to learn' excuse. My current entry is poor. In fact, it's very poor. Hovering around 5.0x is probably quite a good score for an image which relied on 2 people coordinating a shutter and a hand-held, hand-fired 25 year old flash (I taped a safety pin across the contacts to make a switch!). But without a challenge I wouldn't have invested lots of time in my image (far too much time TBH) and I wouldn't have 'improved' by learning fundamental lessons about lighting, balancing natural and flash lighting, working withing white balance settings etc. I learned more from this than image than any of my other entries so I genuinely don't care about the score, and it has also taught me that a decent flash and remote triggers would have produced a much better result, more consistently with significantly less effort. I could have taken an easier image from a car window, processed it to death and scored higher than my gargantuan effort in my pathetic indoor studio, but I genuinely wanted to learn, and now I have, I'm going to use my skills and newly ordered flash kit to kick butt in the near future!
2. We are also competitors and really want to beat our peers (which is why we all enter these challenges). The skills of professional photographers with professional kit and years of experience as well as seriously talented amateurs with professional kit and years of experience means that the highest places are usually reserved for a small elite with the occasional 'lucky break' from somebody outside the elite. To ribbon you generally need a photo that 'conforms', or at least upsets the fewest people.
3. We are all (well, most of us) quite nasty and the scores given by challenge participants is lower than non-participants. This underhand voting-down of the competition is exaggerated by the blind voting system DPC has. If I wanted to I could vote down any images I thought were competition to my image but this would have little overall effect on the images score, but collectively, we all do the same. There seems to be an element of looking for flaws in other people' photos if they are in competition with our own perfect image; it seems bizarre to give high scores to images that are going to beat yours through your own actions. Therefore, scores don't really matter. Some of the best scores on DPC were in the early days with poor equipment taken by enthusiastic amateurs because it seemed a fun idea, and the individual scores were so much higher than now.
Example...
In the Road Signs challenge the scores ranged from 6.9291 to 3.7333 (ignoring Venser's thrust for brown) meaning that only a third of the scoring range was used and the difference between placings was decided by a few high or low votes in a few cases. I scored a 6th place which I was really really pleased with, but I don't think that a score of 6.25xx would reflect a silimar placing in any other competition. If you asked an average photographer what score they thought the photo deserved, and they couldn't hide behind anonymous voting, I think they'd give it a higher score than 6.25. It got 3 3s and 11 4s! How can anybody than has a DPC account give that image a 3? But the same scoring rules apply to all images, so it evens out. My current image deserves a lot of 3s, just to show I'm objective about my efforts ;)
I also compete in cycling competitions which are determined by a simple scoring system where the first rider across the line wins; objective scoring without dispute. Use whatever tactics you want to, but the winner wins in open competition. Anticipating the 'What about Lance?' retort, that doesn't happen at local cycling races because the rewards are so low and the costs of doing it would be so great.
Anyway, I just wanted to get some thoughts down which some people might find interesting, some may dispute and some may ignore. |
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02/07/2013 05:38:24 AM · #2 |
| Good,think you are dead on with 123. |
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02/07/2013 07:21:28 AM · #3 |
I don't agree with 2. at all. There aren't any professional photographers in the TT for 2012 (my definition of a professional photographer is someone who does photography for a living), see: //dpcribbons.hajeka.com/browser.html
Quite a few, like  gyaban have started photography very recently. And occasionally, "non conforming" photos do win ribbons. |
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02/07/2013 07:36:10 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by mikeee:
As DPCers I think we work on 3 simultaneous different levels.
... If you asked an average photographer what score they thought the photo deserved, and they couldn't hide behind anonymous voting, I think they'd give it a higher score than 6.25. It got 3 3s and 11 4s! How can anybody than has a DPC account give that image a 3? |
I have no problems whatsoever telling anyone in a public forum what vote I meted out. Mind you, I can deal with the moaning sessions that would follow. Would most people do it... likely not if you consider how some get blasted for offering an opinion.
Regarding votes of 3, I have done it and truly believed the image deserved it. Not unlike your bike race scenario... someone has to come last.
Another man's view.
Ray |
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02/07/2013 07:37:43 AM · #5 |
FWIW...It is a little disheartening to say that #3 rings true. Challenge participants usually do dole out lower scores to the competition, though if you look at individual voters and their average scores given vs average score received you can see not everyone goes this route.
But on an individual basis, I do not see it as bizarre with acknowledging that images in a challenge are better than yours and accordingly voted high. I see it as sportmanship, plain and simple. And if you have a good image in too, the competition to whom you have just given a fair vote may reciprocate. They may not, of course, but they might. |
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02/07/2013 08:05:20 AM · #6 |
i agree with 1; 2 and 3 I don't.
The folks who repeatedly ribbon have mastered how to do one or more of a few things really well:
they have compelling imagination and can show it to us in their images.
they have access to compelling locations of scenery and/or people.
they are expert at showing the beauty in mundane, usually with compelling lighting or composition.
Talent only has part to do with it. I could setup a great shot, well though out perfect light and composition, but if my model is terrible and can't sell the image, it suffers. Gyaban,  Samantha_t, sjhuls to name a few not only can imagine a scene but also have access to models or can themselves sell the shot.
Yet doing all that i could show up at a beautiful area take a picture and outscore most images i put any thought or time into. I think this frustrates me most on DPC, images that are pretty and easily captured are often overvalued. I'm sure its jealousy on my part that i don't have access to locales or models to sell my vision consistently.
on point 3, not everyone is nasty and i bet many are quite objective, but its human nature to be overly critical of competition, you tend to look for flaws and they become easier to find and are able to justify to yourself a lower score.
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02/07/2013 08:11:39 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
on point 3, not everyone is nasty and i bet many are quite objective, but its human nature to be overly critical of competition, you tend to look for flaws and they become easier to find and are able to justify to yourself a lower score. |
Maybe nasty was a bit strong. |
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02/07/2013 08:48:57 AM · #8 |
Yes I agree all 3 are very good. But I on the flip side of people voting down. I believe that people will vote high on recognizable shots from the "popular" kids. Just look at comments. It's obvious people know who they are voting on. |
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02/07/2013 08:53:07 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Marc923:
But I on the flip side of people voting down. I believe that people will vote high on recognizable shots from the "popular" kids. Just look at comments. It's obvious people know who they are voting on. |
I firmly believe this happens. Do I have proof or evidence? No. Does it bother me? No. If it did, I wouldn't stick around. But I definitely have a sneaking suspicion some images get the benefit of the doubt vote (or bump) based on recognition. |
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02/07/2013 08:56:29 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Marc923:
But I on the flip side of people voting down. I believe that people will vote high on recognizable shots from the "popular" kids. Just look at comments. It's obvious people know who they are voting on. |
I firmly believe this happens. Do I have proof or evidence? No. Does it bother me? No. If it did, I wouldn't stick around. But I definitely have a sneaking suspicion some images get the benefit of the doubt vote (or bump) based on recognition. |
of course they do.
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02/07/2013 09:28:56 AM · #11 |
Especially this photographer.
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Marc923:
But I on the flip side of people voting down. I believe that people will vote high on recognizable shots from the "popular" kids. Just look at comments. It's obvious people know who they are voting on. |
I firmly believe this happens. Do I have proof or evidence? No. Does it bother me? No. If it did, I wouldn't stick around. But I definitely have a sneaking suspicion some images get the benefit of the doubt vote (or bump) based on recognition. |
of course they do. |
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02/07/2013 09:36:56 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by MNet:
I don't agree with 2. at all. There aren't any professional photographers in the TT for 2012 (my definition of a professional photographer is someone who does photography for a living) |
That's because they're too busy making money as opposed to wasting copious amounts of time winning gifs they can't cash in for anything tangible. |
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02/07/2013 09:39:19 AM · #13 |
I agree in general with the OP, but I see different motivations.
We like to post our work here to show it off. Any accomplishment is that much more satisfying once shared with a friend.
It's another form of feedback to have your work ranked against your peers. For me, this is the least interesting form of feedback as I have no interest in crafting my work to be the least offensive to the most people. I value the Sigma Award. And I think the awards given by participants here add so much to the fun of a voting challenge. There is so much more to life than the score.
Voting. I used to be a teacher. If I wanted students to receive harsh score/criticism, I would always turn them on each other. Students grade each other very harshly because they are a participant, they have put in the work, they are quick to spot a lack of effort from a peer & are likely to not sugarcoat their evaluation. And because they are students, they don't yet see the big picture. So it does not surprise me that participants give lower scores. I don't think it's because participants are hoping to bump up their own score by voting everyone else down, that's so stupid.
Message edited by author 2013-02-07 09:42:59. |
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02/07/2013 09:42:54 AM · #14 |
I'd like to think that a non-trivial number of folks here on dpc are motivated by another factor - a drive for excellence. It seems that if your entry has any flaw in it, it gets hammered in voting. If it seems like it was a "lazy" shot, it gets hammered in voting. If it is a been-done-before shot, it gets hammered in voting. It is one of the things I hate (and love) about dpc. It is really tough to get everything just right (or right enough). On the other hand, I know no one is going to give me a break if something's not as it should be.
Long ago, I learned that if you want to get good at chess, play against others who are better than you. For me, dpc offers that. But even for those here who are very good, others here on dpc are very good as well, still offering them a challenge to do their best, and keep on top of their game, and yes, improve. |
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02/07/2013 09:54:12 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
i agree with 1; 2 and 3 I don't.
The folks who repeatedly ribbon have mastered how to do one or more of a few things really well:
they have compelling imagination and can show it to us in their images.
they have access to compelling locations of scenery and/or people.
they are expert at showing the beauty in mundane, usually with compelling lighting or composition.
Talent only has part to do with it. I could setup a great shot, well though out perfect light and composition, but if my model is terrible and can't sell the image, it suffers. Gyaban, Samantha_t, sjhuls to name a few not only can imagine a scene but also have access to models or can themselves sell the shot.
Yet doing all that i could show up at a beautiful area take a picture and outscore most images i put any thought or time into. I think this frustrates me most on DPC, images that are pretty and easily captured are often overvalued. I'm sure its jealousy on my part that i don't have access to locales or models to sell my vision consistently.
on point 3, not everyone is nasty and i bet many are quite objective, but its human nature to be overly critical of competition, you tend to look for flaws and they become easier to find and are able to justify to yourself a lower score. |
I don't often get into these discussions but this struck me as particularly interesting. I have to completely disagree! Mike I'm not pointing you out as all of us, including me, have said similar things. The thing I want to say though is, leaving aside natural talent, which sometimes occurs but quite infrequently, these peeps work really hard at their work. i'll use gyaban just cause it's easier in his case but how many dpc'ers use their precious sleeping hours to get all shots and edit them into a work of art, just to win that blue gif ribbon? very very few.
ok that's not the point i want to make, i think the real point I want to make is this: think outside the box. think outside the "must live in europe to win the jagar challenge" box. i'm not saying photographic talent or a good eye isn't important, I'm actually saying it's more important than what seems to be the case. i've lost track of my point i'll catch back later when i find it. |
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02/07/2013 09:58:30 AM · #16 |
LOL, Bearmusic, we have been here since, was it 2004? How many times have we seen this, heard this? Some things really never change.
Hang in there guys, DPC is one of the best photography schools you can attend. Just hang in there and play! |
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02/07/2013 10:01:45 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
LOL, Bearmusic, we have been here since, was it 2004? How many times have we seen this, heard this? Some things really never change.
Hang in there guys, DPC is one of the best photography schools you can attend. Just hang in there and play! |
im coming up on my 4th anniversary and i was thinking the same exact thing, doc :) it's like Groundhog Day, dpc style. or, as i heard on the radio this morning, it's like deja moo. when you're sure you've heard this bs before. |
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02/07/2013 10:06:40 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by MarkB:
Especially this photographer.
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Marc923:
But I on the flip side of people voting down. I believe that people will vote high on recognizable shots from the "popular" kids. Just look at comments. It's obvious people know who they are voting on. |
I firmly believe this happens. Do I have proof or evidence? No. Does it bother me? No. If it did, I wouldn't stick around. But I definitely have a sneaking suspicion some images get the benefit of the doubt vote (or bump) based on recognition. |
of course they do. |
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I'm not sure I agree with the implication that I vote the 'popular kids' high. I don't know any of them and probably couldn't recognise any of their work. |
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02/07/2013 10:08:17 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by FourPointX:
Originally posted by docpjv:
LOL, Bearmusic, we have been here since, was it 2004? How many times have we seen this, heard this? Some things really never change.
Hang in there guys, DPC is one of the best photography schools you can attend. Just hang in there and play! |
im coming up on my 4th anniversary and i was thinking the same exact thing, doc :) it's like Groundhog Day, dpc style. or, as i heard on the radio this morning, it's like deja moo. when you're sure you've heard this bs before. |
Hahahahahahaha! Groundhog day LOL!!! Dejamooooooooo!
However, I am not convinced yet that DPC is one of the best shooting schools! Sorry guys; not laughing at you, just, well, just having a few nice recalls..... misterslippers or was it misterglass slippers, Rose.... Yah, what a fun place to be. |
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02/07/2013 10:08:44 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by MarkB:
Especially this photographer. |
I'm not sure I agree with the implication that I vote the 'popular kids' high. I don't know any of them and probably couldn't recognise any of their work. |
I don't know, the photographer he linked to is the biggest asshole on this website. |
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02/07/2013 10:10:22 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by MarkB:
Especially this photographer. |
I'm not sure I agree with the implication that I vote the 'popular kids' high. I don't know any of them and probably couldn't recognise any of their work. |
I don't know, the photographer he linked to is the biggest asshole on this website. |
+1
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02/07/2013 10:22:48 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by MarkB:
Especially this photographer. |
I'm not sure I agree with the implication that I vote the 'popular kids' high. I don't know any of them and probably couldn't recognise any of their work. |
I don't know, the photographer he linked to is the biggest asshole on this website. |
Yeah, but he DOES have some competition. ;) |
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02/07/2013 10:24:56 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
Originally posted by FourPointX:
Originally posted by docpjv:
LOL, Bearmusic, we have been here since, was it 2004? How many times have we seen this, heard this? Some things really never change.
Hang in there guys, DPC is one of the best photography schools you can attend. Just hang in there and play! |
im coming up on my 4th anniversary and i was thinking the same exact thing, doc :) it's like Groundhog Day, dpc style. or, as i heard on the radio this morning, it's like deja moo. when you're sure you've heard this bs before. |
Hahahahahahaha! Groundhog day LOL!!! Dejamooooooooo!
However, I am not convinced yet that DPC is one of the best shooting schools! Sorry guys; not laughing at you, just, well, just having a few nice recalls..... misterslippers or was it misterglass slippers, Rose.... Yah, what a fun place to be. |
Have been here since 2002! Was more fun in the old days, before the cliques and the whiners came ! By whiners I mean the people who after each challenge post that they leaving because their entries didn' t get over 6.
But putting the challenges aside the community spirit of DPC is still great. |
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02/07/2013 10:38:52 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
LOL, Bearmusic, we have been here since, was it 2004? How many times have we seen this, heard this? Some things really never change.
Hang in there guys, DPC is one of the best photography schools you can attend. Just hang in there and play! |
I've been here since 2003...they don't change much at all.
The value in DPC is not in a little gif ribbon. Those are a nice feel-good affirmation, but the real value is in how you can and will improve as a photographer...IF you are willing to work at it. Look at how many people have gone from DPC noobs to earning money with their photography. JoeyL, mk, JulietNN and I'm sure there are others... |
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02/07/2013 10:51:40 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
The value in DPC is not in a little gif ribbon. Those are a nice feel-good affirmation, but the real value is in how you can and will improve as a photographer...IF you are willing to work at it. Look at how many people have gone from DPC noobs to earning money with their photography. JoeyL, mk, JulietNN and I'm sure there are others... |
I disagree. You will improve as a photographer IF you are willing to work at it. DPC is irrelevant to that equation. Sure, you can name some people who rose from DPC, but there are countless others out there who've come from someplace else. |
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