Birth control rant - DPChallenge Forums

07/24/2012 04:31:49 AM · #1451

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Of course, one has to take personal responsibility for one's personal habits. But I think you have to take the long view in terms of how and when people change.

I'm overweight, out of shape, I smoke, and I just stopped drinking again because I feel like sh*t most of the time.....so whose fault is my condition that other than mine?

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

And just because someone isn't willing or able to change their behavior today doesn't mean they won't change tomorrow.

And again......if I'm not tired of the way I look and feel, that would be whose responsibility?

Anyone who says that their physical condition, and the way that they feel, isn't their responsibility, if they're don't have a genuine medical condition that causes it, is full of it.

It's no one else's problem.

07/25/2012 09:23:38 PM · #1452

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Of course, one has to take personal responsibility for one's personal habits. But I think you have to take the long view in terms of how and when people change.

I'm overweight, out of shape, I smoke, and I just stopped drinking again because I feel like sh*t most of the time.....so whose fault is my condition that other than mine?

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
And just because someone isn't willing or able to change their behavior today doesn't mean they won't change tomorrow.

And again......if I'm not tired of the way I look and feel, that would be whose responsibility?

Anyone who says that their physical condition, and the way that they feel, isn't their responsibility, if they're don't have a genuine medical condition that causes it, is full of it.

It's no one else's problem.

Do you deny social responsibility?

The way I see it is this: At the end of the day, yes, I am ultimately responsible for my physical state however I'm not going to close my eyes to the fact that we are in a terrible social system for maintaining health. I have certain weaknesses, sweets being one. For example I was working at a Kindergarten in Korea and I tried a no sugar diet because I read it was good for bacterial issues. No fruit, no honey, nothing. I lasted days with parents bringing in donuts, cakes for birthday parties, pastries and cookies for snacks in the morning and in the afternoon and then I finally caved. I couldn't do it. I couldn't see those things in front of me day after day after day, several times a day, and keep saying no.

If I was in a supportive, healthy environment, or even just living on my own farm, growing my own food and choosing what I bought at the store, I think it would have been no problem. But I didn't have the environment to support my choices.

Hunter/gatherers who eat as healthy as can be don't eat the way they do because they are somehow individually more virtuous or self controlled than us. That's just their lifestyle and culture. Plop them into the "modern" world and a percentage of them would get fat and lazy just like anyone else.

What I mean to say, as I always do say on this subject is we don't live in a vacuum. A lot can be done, and massive self control has been exerted by amazing people, but really, let's not all pretend we are strong than we are. We all have our vices, cigarettes, food, TV, whatever it is, and we live in a culture that supports them not because they are healthy, but because they make money.

We realize drugs are a social problem, poverty, violence, etc. Why NOT food? Why is food the one exception? It's not.

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

07/25/2012 10:01:25 PM · #1453

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Do you deny social responsibility?

As it pertains to the choices I need to make? Hell, yes!

Why is it someone else's responsibility to monitor my intake?

That's absurd!

Originally posted by escapetooz:

The way I see it is this: At the end of the day, yes, I am ultimately responsible for my physical state however I'm not going to close my eyes to the fact that we are in a terrible social system for maintaining health. I have certain weaknesses, sweets being one. For example I was working at a Kindergarten in Korea and I tried a no sugar diet because I read it was good for bacterial issues. No fruit, no honey, nothing. I lasted days with parents bringing in donuts, cakes for birthday parties, pastries and cookies for snacks in the morning and in the afternoon and then I finally caved. I couldn't do it. I couldn't see those things in front of me day after day after day, several times a day, and keep saying no.

You nailed the problem.......YOU caved. So because YOU can't control your sweet tooth, nobody should eat a donut around you?

Yeah......that's reasonable!

Just say NO to donuts! LOL!!!

Originally posted by escapetooz:

If I was in a supportive, healthy environment, or even just living on my own farm, growing my own food and choosing what I bought at the store, I think it would have been no problem. But I didn't have the environment to support my choices.

And who chose this environment?????

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Hunter/gatherers who eat as healthy as can be don't eat the way they do because they are somehow individually more virtuous or self controlled than us. That's just their lifestyle and culture. Plop them into the "modern" world and a percentage of them would get fat and lazy just like anyone else.

Hogwash! I have just as much of a chance in the frozen food aisle to buy flash frozen green beans and a non-breaded fish filet as I do that box of taquitos......and chances are the good stuff is cheaper. Sorry, your argument just doesn't hold water.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

What I mean to say, as I always do say on this subject is we don't live in a vacuum. A lot can be done, and massive self control has been exerted by amazing people, but really, let's not all pretend we are strong than we are. We all have our vices, cigarettes, food, TV, whatever it is, and we live in a culture that supports them not because they are healthy, but because they make money.

Okay, but again, ultimately what you put in your stomach, lungs, and/or bloodstream is on YOU......it's not MY job to do it for you.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

We realize drugs are a social problem, poverty, violence, etc. Why NOT food? Why is food the one exception? It's not.

It is definitely NOT an exception. Just like choosing to pick up a drink, eating a blintz will have its consequences. Just because you can't get a DUI for one too many blintzes doesn't mean they're good for you.

As far as drugs and alcohol go, guess what......ultimately, the choice to not have them rule and/or destroy your life is on you as well.

And if you're an addict, and an alcoholic, like I am, then you have to be vigilant each and every day of your life. It only takes ONE bad decision to drop into the maelstrom all over again. And NOBODY but YOU makes that decision.

BTW.....there are twelve step programs for so many vagaries of the human condition you'd be astonished. The first step is admitting the YOU are the problem......and then making the decision to work towards dealing with your problem.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

07/25/2012 10:24:58 PM · #1454

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Of course, one has to take personal responsibility for one's personal habits. But I think you have to take the long view in terms of how and when people change.

I'm overweight, out of shape, I smoke, and I just stopped drinking again because I feel like sh*t most of the time.....so whose fault is my condition that other than mine?

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
And just because someone isn't willing or able to change their behavior today doesn't mean they won't change tomorrow.

And again......if I'm not tired of the way I look and feel, that would be whose responsibility?

Anyone who says that their physical condition, and the way that they feel, isn't their responsibility, if they're don't have a genuine medical condition that causes it, is full of it.

It's no one else's problem.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
Do you deny social responsibility?

As it pertains to the choices I need to make? Hell, yes!

Why is it someone else's responsibility to monitor my intake?

That's absurd!
Originally posted by escapetooz:
The way I see it is this: At the end of the day, yes, I am ultimately responsible for my physical state however I'm not going to close my eyes to the fact that we are in a terrible social system for maintaining health. I have certain weaknesses, sweets being one. For example I was working at a Kindergarten in Korea and I tried a no sugar diet because I read it was good for bacterial issues. No fruit, no honey, nothing. I lasted days with parents bringing in donuts, cakes for birthday parties, pastries and cookies for snacks in the morning and in the afternoon and then I finally caved. I couldn't do it. I couldn't see those things in front of me day after day after day, several times a day, and keep saying no.

You nailed the problem.......YOU caved. So because YOU can't control your sweet tooth, nobody should eat a donut around you?

Yeah......that's reasonable!

Just say NO to donuts! LOL!!!
Originally posted by escapetooz:
If I was in a supportive, healthy environment, or even just living on my own farm, growing my own food and choosing what I bought at the store, I think it would have been no problem. But I didn't have the environment to support my choices.

And who chose this environment?????

Originally posted by escapetooz:
Hunter/gatherers who eat as healthy as can be don't eat the way they do because they are somehow individually more virtuous or self controlled than us. That's just their lifestyle and culture. Plop them into the "modern" world and a percentage of them would get fat and lazy just like anyone else.

Hogwash! I have just as much of a chance in the frozen food aisle to buy flash frozen green beans and a non-breaded fish filet as I do that box of taquitos......and chances are the good stuff is cheaper. Sorry, your argument just doesn't hold water.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
What I mean to say, as I always do say on this subject is we don't live in a vacuum. A lot can be done, and massive self control has been exerted by amazing people, but really, let's not all pretend we are strong than we are. We all have our vices, cigarettes, food, TV, whatever it is, and we live in a culture that supports them not because they are healthy, but because they make money.

Okay, but again, ultimately what you put in your stomach, lungs, and/or bloodstream is on YOU......it's not MY job to do it for you.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
We realize drugs are a social problem, poverty, violence, etc. Why NOT food? Why is food the one exception? It's not.

It is definitely NOT an exception. Just like choosing to pick up a drink, eating a blintz will have its consequences. Just because you can't get a DUI for one too many blintzes doesn't mean they're good for you.

As far as drugs and alcohol go, guess what......ultimately, the choice to not have them rule and/or destroy your life is on you as well.

And if you're an addict, and an alcoholic, like I am, then you have to be vigilant each and every day of your life. It only takes ONE bad decision to drop into the maelstrom all over again. And NOBODY but YOU makes that decision.

BTW.....there are twelve step programs for so many vagaries of the human condition you'd be astonished. The first step is admitting the YOU are the problem......and then making the decision to work towards dealing with your problem.

*applaud*

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

07/25/2012 10:55:14 PM · #1455

You are missing my point so I'll try again.

For me, it's really hard to ENTIRELY blame the individuals when you see such cultural extremes. Despite my saying there were sweets around, in general Koreans eat fairly healthy and are quite thin. Getting on a plane going from Korea where most people are thin and active (at least in Seoul), and landing in the states to be surrounded by rampant obesity it's VERY easy to see. Are Americans all individually more lazy and lacking in self control than Koreans? No, it's a cultural difference, not an individual by individual difference. And as fast food and crap food invade Korea, you will see the obesity levels rise I guarantee it.

It's foolish to sit around and point fingers SOLEY at a person themselves. This is not coming from a victim "poor me" mentality, it is coming from a background of science, observation, and common sense.

Choices are 3 fold: Emotions/instincts, environment, logic. The metaphor I've read and love is this: A rider (logic), riding an elephant (emotions/insticts) walking down a path (environment).

What we have is our elephant, pre-loaded full of evolutionary triggers to seek out the most fat and sugar (rare in nature) with the least resistance from a time when that was necessary for survival. Then we have a bunch of CEOs and marketing executives that know EXACTLY how to push those evolutionary buttons littering the path with crap food this, megasized that, fatty thats, salty that. Then... you have the logical guy pulling on the reins of the elephant crying with all of his might, "NO! Don't Eat that!" And if you have been an alcoholic than you know EXACTLY what if feels like to pull at the reins and still not be listened to.

Get the picture? You are putting ALL of the responsibility on the guy on the elephant and ignoring all of the rest. Why? Why ignore the rest? I'm not saying people should not have as much personal responsibility as possible within the system they are in, but why fight against ALSO trying to make a better system? That makes no sense.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

07/25/2012 11:20:40 PM · #1456

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Get the picture? You are putting ALL of the responsibility on the guy on the elephant and ignoring all of the rest. Why? Why ignore the rest? I'm not saying people should not have as much personal responsibility as possible within the system they are in, but why fight against ALSO trying to make a better system? That makes no sense.

She's correct. Regardless that in the end we all make our own choices, it's absolutely ignorant to disregard the cultural aspects of the equation, how significant they are. In fact, it's precisely because we DO bury our awareness of this stuff that the purveyors of all-that-is-bad-for-us are able to so dominate the marketplace.

The food biz is not like other businesses. We're headed for serious, even catastrophic, troubles here. I can't even BEGIN to describe how fracked up it is. And the people that market this stuff are very intelligent, very determined, and driven solely by greed. The one thing we all have to have, that 90+ percent of us can't get for ourselves, is increasingly being controlled by corporate interests that aren't even slightly concerned with our welfare as individuals.

It's scary.

R.

Message edited by author 2012-07-26 01:16:10.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/26/2012 12:19:47 AM · #1457

Thanks Bear, as always a voice of reason. ;)

An important thing here too is that not choosing is a choice. Lack of regulation is a choice. I recently met people who didn't really discipline their kids, and so... the kids were spoiled brats who were not socialized well and were very rude. The parents did it of course with good intentions, the intention of giving their children freedom to make their own choices, but children need structure. So now (at least in my opinion) by trying to give their children an advantage, I think they are disadvantaged. Getting everything you want isn't always what's best for you.

These companies are like children. You give them an inch, they run all over and freedom is actually LOST that way. Why? Because if my supermarket is filled with all the cheap, crap food corporations are allowed to push and peddle to willing masses, where am I getting good food from and how much is it costing me? And what happens when the crap food companies are in power? Well exactly what we are seeing, they are aggressively fighting laws that would help us make better food decisions. Like Monsanto and other big companies aggressively fighting against GMO labeling, fighting fair reporting of factory farms, fighting the spread of information on the harmful affects of high fructose corn syrup, etc under the guise of "libel laws".

How can I make my individual choice, if my society won't even allow me the availability, ease of access and information? It's very troubling. We are losing our freedom. That is what people don't get here. It's slipping through our fingers. As we sit around whining about the size of our sodas the REAL freedom to choose is being taken away right in front of our faces.

I WISH GMO labeling got the attention of this stupid soda size fight. Then maybe we'd see some real positive change. Some real freedom fighting.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

07/26/2012 01:47:45 AM · #1458

Originally posted by escapetooz:

It's foolish to sit around and point fingers SOLEY at a person themselves.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

These companies are like children. You give them an inch, they run all over and freedom is actually LOST that way.

There is something of a conflict in those two opinions. When people make bad decisions, it is partially the fault of the environment they find themselves in, and the range of choices that they can avail themselves of.

The same is true of companies. They are not monsters out to do harm, they make the best choice they can for their own good, given the environment they find themselves in. I may not care for the choices that they make, but they are responding to market demand, distribution costs, spoilage rates and government incentives and regulations. If we want to change the choices they make, we have to change their environment.

jagar

Samsung Galaxy S9/S9+

Sony Sonnar FE 2.8 35mm ZA

07/26/2012 02:40:30 AM · #1459

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
It's foolish to sit around and point fingers SOLEY at a person themselves.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
These companies are like children. You give them an inch, they run all over and freedom is actually LOST that way.

There is something of a conflict in those two opinions. When people make bad decisions, it is partially the fault of the environment they find themselves in, and the range of choices that they can avail themselves of.

The same is true of companies. They are not monsters out to do harm, they make the best choice they can for their own good, given the environment they find themselves in. I may not care for the choices that they make, but they are responding to market demand, distribution costs, spoilage rates and government incentives and regulations. If we want to change the choices they make, we have to change their environment.

I couldn't agree more, they just play the music we want to here, if we love pop music, pop is what we'll get. This shallow society that is taking shape is just a reflection of our inner selves, change starts at home. If the majority wants quick tasty junk, that's what they'll get and it's happening in every aspect of society right now.

07/26/2012 06:19:30 AM · #1460

Originally posted by escapetooz:

I'm sorry, but I'm still not buying it.

You opened up another can of worms with talking about how people are raised. For example......I was raised to be responsible, and accountable for my actions. Let's just say I get off a bus at a stop, and step down in such a manner that my foot hooks on the curb, I fall, and break my ankle. Now as far as I'm concerned, I was remiss in not paying attention to where I stepped. But these days, I could sue the bus driver for not pulling to the curb properly, and probably win. Sorry, but that's not the way it should work. The bar has been set so low that people think that they're to be looked out for, and offered a world with no risks. Not acceptable in my book.

It's the responsibility of parents to teach their children to make good choices......but then it's on them as they become adults.

I'm sorry, but I find that abhorrent. I'm supposed to pay attention to what I'm doing, where I'm stepping, and yes.....what I eat. This whole victim mentality, the whole "the world owes me a living" attitude is repugnant.

I remember not too long ago some woman went after McDonalds in a suit because her son was obese. Seriously????? They made the conscious choice to drive/walk/whatever to this place, make their order, pay for it, and eat it, and somehow this is someone else's fault?????

There will always be an opportunity to make bad choices, do the wrong thing, and not think through to the *consequences* of one's actions. But I think it's a sad world in the way that it's becoming expected for someone else to watch out for you.

Message edited by author 2012-07-26 06:20:23.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/26/2012 06:31:40 AM · #1461

Originally posted by escapetooz:

I have certain weaknesses, sweets being one. For example I was working at a Kindergarten in Korea and I tried a no sugar diet because I read it was good for bacterial issues. No fruit, no honey, nothing. I lasted days with parents bringing in donuts, cakes for birthday parties, pastries and cookies for snacks in the morning and in the afternoon and then I finally caved. I couldn't do it. I couldn't see those things in front of me day after day after day, several times a day, and keep saying no.

I want to go back to this and talk about the basic premise. You said you have a sweets weakness......and that you caved, because these other folks were bringing this stuff around. Why couldn't you bring fruit, multi-grain muffins, and carrot/celery sticks?

Why was this THEIR fault that YOU couldn't control, and make provisions, for YOUR weakness? Shouldn't you be responsible for the same supportive environment you say you want? Who is supposed to create that? Why NOT you? Where's YOUR social responsibility to these children to give them healthy options?

You didn't address my more blunt query on this matter, but honestly, I'd like to know your answer.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

07/26/2012 11:04:25 AM · #1462

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

There will always be an opportunity to make bad choices, do the wrong thing, and not think through to the *consequences* of one's actions. But I think it's a sad world in the way that it's becoming expected for someone else to watch out for you.

Prescription drugs exist because your premise is a noble ideal rather than a practical reality. Sometimes oversight is necessary.

07/26/2012 12:30:24 PM · #1463

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Prescription drugs exist because your premise is a noble ideal rather than a practical reality. Sometimes oversight is necessary.

Yes, but you're basically talking about the exception rather than the rule.

Especially in Monica's case where she could have chosen to bring in healthy snacks and done her part to both help herself and offer up a good alternative to the junk food, wouldn't you agree?

07/26/2012 01:53:11 PM · #1464

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
I have certain weaknesses, sweets being one. For example I was working at a Kindergarten in Korea and I tried a no sugar diet because I read it was good for bacterial issues. No fruit, no honey, nothing. I lasted days with parents bringing in donuts, cakes for birthday parties, pastries and cookies for snacks in the morning and in the afternoon and then I finally caved. I couldn't do it. I couldn't see those things in front of me day after day after day, several times a day, and keep saying no.

I want to go back to this and talk about the basic premise. You said you have a sweets weakness......and that you caved, because these other folks were bringing this stuff around. Why couldn't you bring fruit, multi-grain muffins, and carrot/celery sticks?

Why was this THEIR fault that YOU couldn't control, and make provisions, for YOUR weakness? Shouldn't you be responsible for the same supportive environment you say you want? Who is supposed to create that? Why NOT you? Where's YOUR social responsibility to these children to give them healthy options?

You didn't address my more blunt query on this matter, but honestly, I'd like to know your answer.

Yes please let's turn this into a personal attack. Let's make this about my vices and my lack of will power. That will prove?

To address the "healthy snacks for the kids" I brought it up to my bosses several times and it fell on deaf ears because the prepackaged pastries were cheap and easy. I'm not going to buy snacks for 20 kids twice a day, that's not my job. I exposed them to healthy snacks when I could, I did a great lesson on raw honey vs. pasteurized. Most of them liked the raw better. But I'm not rich. I couldn't feed them every day.

They would have gladly fed the children healthier options if they were available within the budget and with ease of getting it out to 300 children. THAT'S MY POINT.

I don't know about Korea, but in the states, corn subsidies make it possible to make dirt cheap CRAP out of high fructose corn syrup and soy products. Why not subsidize the actual vegetables and fruits? Why is it cheaper to buy prepackaged garbage that goes through a hundreds of hands and factors and miles than it is to buy local veggies and fruits. Do you not see a problem with that?

But no no. Let's let things keep going where they are going. You forget to think about choice as a child. As a child you eat what you are given. When I was a preschool photographer in Los Angeles it broke my heart to see morbidly obese children as young as 3-5. What choice will they have? They will be wired for obesity. They will struggle with their weight their whole lives, or perhaps not even bother because they will always see themselves as fat.

Overcoming odds is the exception, not the rule. The rule tends to be, you stay on the path you've been shown.

Message edited by author 2012-07-26 14:10:02.

07/26/2012 01:55:31 PM · #1465

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
Thanks Bear, as always a voice of reason. ;)

An important thing here too is that not choosing is a choice. Lack of regulation is a choice. I recently met people who didn't really discipline their kids, and so... the kids were spoiled brats who were not socialized well and were very rude. The parents did it of course with good intentions, the intention of giving their children freedom to make their own choices, but children need structure. So now (at least in my opinion) by trying to give their children an advantage, I think they are disadvantaged. Getting everything you want isn't always what's best for you.

These companies are like children. You give them an inch, they run all over and freedom is actually LOST that way. Why? Because if my supermarket is filled with all the cheap, crap food corporations are allowed to push and peddle to willing masses, where am I getting good food from and how much is it costing me? And what happens when the crap food companies are in power? Well exactly what we are seeing, they are aggressively fighting laws that would help us make better food decisions. Like Monsanto and other big companies aggressively fighting against GMO labeling, fighting fair reporting of factory farms, fighting the spread of information on the harmful affects of high fructose corn syrup, etc under the guise of "libel laws".

How can I make my individual choice, if my society won't even allow me the availability, ease of access and information? It's very troubling. We are losing our freedom. That is what people don't get here. It's slipping through our fingers. As we sit around whining about the size of our sodas the REAL freedom to choose is being taken away right in front of our faces.

I WISH GMO labeling got the attention of this stupid soda size fight. Then maybe we'd see some real positive change. Some real freedom fighting.

I'm sorry, but I'm still not buying it.

You opened up another can of worms with talking about how people are raised. For example......I was raised to be responsible, and accountable for my actions. Let's just say I get off a bus at a stop, and step down in such a manner that my foot hooks on the curb, I fall, and break my ankle. Now as far as I'm concerned, I was remiss in not paying attention to where I stepped. But these days, I could sue the bus driver for not pulling to the curb properly, and probably win. Sorry, but that's not the way it should work. The bar has been set so low that people think that they're to be looked out for, and offered a world with no risks. Not acceptable in my book.

It's the responsibility of parents to teach their children to make good choices......but then it's on them as they become adults.

I'm sorry, but I find that abhorrent. I'm supposed to pay attention to what I'm doing, where I'm stepping, and yes.....what I eat. This whole victim mentality, the whole "the world owes me a living" attitude is repugnant.

I remember not too long ago some woman went after McDonalds in a suit because her son was obese. Seriously????? They made the conscious choice to drive/walk/whatever to this place, make their order, pay for it, and eat it, and somehow this is someone else's fault?????

There will always be an opportunity to make bad choices, do the wrong thing, and not think through to the *consequences* of one's actions. But I think it's a sad world in the way that it's becoming expected for someone else to watch out for you.

Your curb analogy has NOTHING to do with the food choices debate. Don't argue a straw man, it's insulting.

My how you are raised argument had to do with having no boundaries and making bad choices, for individuals and for companies. That's it. I didn't talk about suing people for tripping. That's just nonsense.

You did not address my point about freedom of information and these big companies fighting to take that away. You are closing your eyes to my point because you want to be right, and really I don't have the patience for it.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

07/26/2012 02:00:52 PM · #1466

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

If you think they aren't out to do harm (some of them, obviously I can't generalize all) then you don't know enough about Monsanto. I can't even begin to explain...

But yes I agree with you mostly. My opinions weren't at odds. I was making the point that we NEED regulation on businesses or they WILL run rampant and get away with whatever they can get away with and call it "freedom". We have laws for a reason, freedom is not absolute.

It's a matter of changing our definitions. It's illegal to sell poison in food, correct? But how do we define poison? To me, high fructose corn syrup is a poisonous substance and I avoid it at all costs. The world would be better off if this poisonous substance was banned. And aspertame. I could go on, but you get my point.

frisca

Nikon D70

07/26/2012 02:08:49 PM · #1467

I think Monica's points are very well laid out and I think she's right. Why is that places with a different cultural mindset (and lack of corporate mindset analogous to North America) when it comes to food, have a very different picture of their society than we have in NA?

When the information about food isn't readily available, when advertising speaks to your subconscious and tells you that it's ok to eat something because it's fun, and sweet and exciting without telling you the health problems with it, how do we fight against that? We can inform ourselves individually, but the space in which we make our choices ought to at least be neutral on those choices, if not support and encourage them.

Anyway, she made her point better than I could, but I'm with her.

Also, people have this perception that it's cheaper to eat pre-packaged or prepared food, but it can be as economical to eat from scratch, you just have to shop smartly and cook, and not everyone is equipped to do that.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/26/2012 02:20:31 PM · #1468

Originally posted by frisca:

When the information about food isn't readily available, when advertising speaks to your subconscious and tells you that it's ok to eat something because it's fun, and sweet and exciting without telling you the health problems with it, how do we fight against that?

Every food package is required to list ingredients and caloric breakdown, chain restaurants and fast food places must furnish a menu with caloric values and percentage of total fat. The information about what you are about to stick in your face is now easier to get than it has ever been in my lifetime, yet obesity and diabetes are at an all time high. People are often ignorant about nutrition, but they are willfully ignorant, because they have to avert their gaze from the packaging to maintain that ignorance.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/26/2012 02:26:17 PM · #1469

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Every food package is required to list ingredients and caloric breakdown ...

Yes, and "evaporated cane juice" sounds ever-so-much healthier and more natural than "sugar" ...

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

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07/26/2012 02:30:45 PM · #1470

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

The information about what you are about to stick in your face is now easier to get than it has ever been in my lifetime, yet obesity and diabetes are at an all time high. People are often ignorant about nutrition, but they are willfully ignorant, because they have to avert their gaze from the packaging to maintain that ignorance.

Bear in mind, though, that while the information is there, healthier alternatives are limited as the vast majority of packaged foods and restaurant fare contain high levels of salt, corn syrup, etc., which seems to be Monica's point. There have been some positive strides with moves away from trans fats and options like salads and apples at McDonald's. Without such changes, the personal choice argument is like trying tell polar bears not to raid dumpsters when garbage is readily available and "real" food is scarce.

07/26/2012 02:47:08 PM · #1471

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Yes please let's turn this into a personal attack. Let's make this about my vices and my lack of will power. That will prove?

Oh, wow.....

Okay, I address your scenario and it's a personal attack? Okay, whatever.

I already stated that I have issues and don't necessarily make good choices, pretty much like most people do for various reasons. I'm certainly not picking on you.....relax.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

To address the "healthy snacks for the kids" I brought it up to my bosses several times and it fell on deaf ears because the prepackaged pastries were cheap and easy. I'm not going to buy snacks for 20 kids twice a day, that's not my job. I exposed them to healthy snacks when I could, I did a great lesson on raw honey vs. pasteurized. Most of them liked the raw better. But I'm not rich. I couldn't feed them every day.

Okay.....let's see here.....I was addressing this:I lasted days with parents bringing in donuts, cakes for birthday parties, pastries and cookies for snacks in the morning and in the afternoon and then I finally caved. I couldn't do it. I couldn't see those things in front of me day after day after day, several times a day, and keep saying no.

Now I was making some assumptions.....like parents were doing the same kind of snack tray/covered dish thing that parents do for kindergarten classes since time immemorial. So it would occur to me that a platter of fruit and crunchy-munchy veggies thrown into the mix was a reasonable suggestion. I wasn't suggesting that you feed all the kids every day. You didn't say one word about bosses and their edicts.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

They would have gladly fed the children healthier options if they were available within the budget and with ease of getting it out to 300 children. THAT'S MY POINT.

You didn't say one word previously about any budget. Or that this was a procedure rather than an informal thing. You weren't at all clear about that.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

I don't know about Korea, but in the states, corn subsidies make it possible to make dirt cheap CRAP out of high fructose corn syrup and soy products. Why not subsidize the actual vegetables and fruits? Why is it cheaper to buy prepackaged garbage that goes through a hundreds of hands and factors and miles than it is to buy local veggies and fruits. Do you not see a problem with that?

Well......as the one who has been doing the food shopping in my family for decades, I would disagree with your take on the prepackaged crap being cheaper than fresh produce.......it's more time consuming to pay attention to eating well, but ultimately it's worth the extra bother.

Definitely the wrong time and wrong person to be arguing this right now as far as local fruit and produce.....the sweet corn in the field next door is in and won't cost me a penny. I drive by no less than a half dozen produce stands to and from work every day, and the produce is CHEAP.

Hey, if I get ultimately lazy, I can go to Wegman's and buy truffles at $199.00 a pound.....what's your point???

Originally posted by escapetooz:

But no no. Let's let things keep going where they are going. You forget to think about choice as a child. As a child you eat what you are given. When I was a preschool photographer in Los Angeles it broke my heart to see morbidly obese children as young as 3-5. What choice will they have? They will be wired for obesity. They will struggle with their weight their whole lives, or perhaps not even bother because they will always see themselves as fat.

Okay, and again.....you want to save the world, that's fine. But you're also looking at the result. Those kids didn't become obese by themselves. There's bad parenting there. You want to turn the parents over to Child Welfare?

Who pays for that?

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Overcoming odds is the exception, not the rule. The rule tends to be, you stay on the path you've been shown.

Okay, whatever.....I just don't want to live in your insular world where everything is governed, monitored, and the choices are all made for you so nothing can go wrong.

I was actually trying to have a discussion on varying views with you before you became all judgmental & rabid....as far as personal attacks, you were the only one doing that. I don't have any particular need to be "right" especially in a case like this where obviously, you and I live in completely different worlds. Honestly, I'm glad I don't live in yours.

Good luck in your crusades.......you'll need it.

07/26/2012 03:18:50 PM · #1472

Originally posted by frisca:

When the information about food isn't readily available,

Uh, no......all packaging *must* have a list of ingredients and a nutritional breakdown. It doesn't get much more available than that.

Originally posted by frisca:

when advertising speaks to your subconscious and tells you that it's ok to eat something because it's fun, and sweet and exciting without telling you the health problems with it, how do we fight against that?

Advertising???? Speaks to your subconscious???? Are you SERIOUS???? Just for the record, I don't have a TV, because most of what's on it is crap. But I can assure you I never believed I could get herpes and that I'd get to go on a cruise with beautiful people 'cause the commercial for herpes medicine said so. I have a modicum of sense.

Have you noticed any more that many pieces of equipment have become increasingly difficult to use because of safety mechanisms and are plastered everywhere with the most inane precautionary warnings? I've seen electrical appliances with stickers saying "Do not use in the bathtub." DUH!!!

I'm sorry, but the whole protect us from ourselves mentality to me is pretty sad.

Originally posted by frisca:

We can inform ourselves individually, but the space in which we make our choices ought to at least be neutral on those choices, if not support and encourage them.

Nice ideal, but unrealistic. For instance.....are eggs good for you or not? Once they were, then they weren't, now they're okay again. That's happened with a lot of things. Yes, fresh fruits and vegetables are best, but not everyone lives where that's an option all year.

I still maintain that it's on the individual to pay attention to how they live.

Originally posted by frisca:

Also, people have this perception that it's cheaper to eat pre-packaged or prepared food, but it can be as economical to eat from scratch, you just have to shop smartly and cook, and not everyone is equipped to do that.

I don't know *any* primary food shoppers/preparers who think that the prepackaged/prepared foods are cheaper than the ingredients to do it yourself. Why would they be? It certainly would never occur to me.

I guess I just accept total responsibility for what I do, the decisions I make, don't expect a free ride, or that someone else is going to tackle the job of making sure my life goes smoothly.

Y'all carry on....

07/26/2012 03:47:10 PM · #1473

Sigh. Let me put it this way. The companies are fighting for their right put whatever crap out into the market, regardless of how it hurts the population.

Then, private citizens or politicians or whatever fight to combat that fight. And then people like you come along and go... FREEDOM! WHOSE freedom? Not mine. Corporate freedom.

And WE'RE the jerks who want a nanny state? No. We are the people trying to look out for the health of our nation.

You want to think there is no problem but the individuals. Ignore any signs that we have a problem on the SOCIETAL level. Yes, I AM glad we live in different worlds. That is something we agree on. Because your world is a partial reality, ignoring the big picture.

NO ONE lives in a vacuum. No choices are solely our own. Freedom is not absolute, freedom is dictated by the society we live in. So yes, I want a say in what that freedom means. Corporations have their voices, I should have mine. We are losing our voices and they are convincing folks like you that that's freedom and pit you against us.

It's the ultimate irony.

And on the sweets at my school: I'm no longer in that environment where crap is in my face every day, so I don't eat it. It's a lot easier to avoid the crap isles in the grocery store where you have to PAY for the junk, than it was for me to avoid FREE FOOD put DIRECTLY ON MY DESK every day at school that if I didn't eat, would go in the trash. Get it? As an alcoholic, would you want to work in a bar? Or in a company that has company wide drinks twice a day? Would you be so strong that you could take that?

Again, to ignore environment is foolish.

Message edited by author 2012-07-26 15:49:51.