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08/23/2012 06:33:01 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
This just in: the Republicans have approved this plank in their platform for 2012:
“Faithful to the ‘self-evident’ truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed,” said the draft platform language approved Tuesday, which was first reported by CNN. “We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children.”
In other words,make abortion unconstitutional... |
What a joke. |
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08/23/2012 06:28:00 PM · #2 |
This just in: the Republicans have approved this plank in their platform for 2012:
“Faithful to the ‘self-evident’ truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed,” said the draft platform language approved Tuesday, which was first reported by CNN. “We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children.”
In other words,make abortion unconstitutional... |
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08/01/2012 08:23:42 PM · #3 |
Back to birth control: It Starts Today
"Starting Wednesday, millions of American women will no longer pay for birth control pills, Pap smears or mammograms -- not even a co-pay. Women also have the right to free breast-feeding support, supplies for pregnancy-related diabetes, also known as gestational diabetes, and even screening for domestic violence." |
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07/27/2012 10:42:08 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by from site:
A federal court issued an order Friday that halts enforcement of the Obama administration’s abortion pill mandate against a Colorado family-owned business while an Alliance Defending Freedom lawsuit challenging the mandate continues in court. |
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Sweet, if this is upheld I'm going to convert to Christian Scientist and deny all health coverage to my workers, imagine the advantages that will give me over my competitors! |
At least you'll have a right to do that, but good luck retaining any employees. You'll won't have an advantage since you will only have employees who work for peanuts. |
Enough desperate and unemployed people out there I'm sure. These are why we have a minimum wage and other such requirements. Because there ARE people that will take the jobs out of desperation despite it not being the best situation. |
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07/27/2012 09:31:18 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by from site:
A federal court issued an order Friday that halts enforcement of the Obama administration’s abortion pill mandate against a Colorado family-owned business while an Alliance Defending Freedom lawsuit challenging the mandate continues in court. |
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Sweet, if this is upheld I'm going to convert to Christian Scientist and deny all health coverage to my workers, imagine the advantages that will give me over my competitors! |
At least you'll have a right to do that, but good luck retaining any employees. You'll won't have an advantage since you will only have employees who work for peanuts. |
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07/27/2012 08:25:32 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by from site:
A federal court issued an order Friday that halts enforcement of the Obama administration’s abortion pill mandate against a Colorado family-owned business while an Alliance Defending Freedom lawsuit challenging the mandate continues in court. |
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Sweet, if this is upheld I'm going to convert to Christian Scientist and deny all health coverage to my workers, imagine the advantages that will give me over my competitors! |
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07/27/2012 08:23:14 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Let me try to re-rail this also.
Those with conscience concerns are getting stay.
Feds Halt HHS Mandate Enforcement on Small Business Owner
Originally posted by from site:
A federal court issued an order Friday that halts enforcement of the Obama administration’s abortion pill mandate against a Colorado family-owned business while an Alliance Defending Freedom lawsuit challenging the mandate continues in court. |
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Ummm... I didn't get past the "Obama abortion pill mandate". What in the world? |
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07/27/2012 07:06:34 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Of course, one has to take personal responsibility for one's personal habits. But I think you have to take the long view in terms of how and when people change. |
I'm overweight, out of shape, I smoke, and I just stopped drinking again because I feel like sh*t most of the time.....so whose fault is my condition that other than mine?
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
And just because someone isn't willing or able to change their behavior today doesn't mean they won't change tomorrow. |
And again......if I'm not tired of the way I look and feel, that would be whose responsibility?
Anyone who says that their physical condition, and the way that they feel, isn't their responsibility, if they're don't have a genuine medical condition that causes it, is full of it.
It's no one else's problem. |
Hey Jeb, I think you've misinterpreted what I intended to say here. I agree that if you feel like crap because you're too heavy, eating too much food or too much junk food, smoking, and drinking to excess, it's certainly within your power (because I know you're a smart guy and well-informed) to change your unhealthy habits, although it will probably take some time because behavior is difficult to change even when you want to do it. But I also think full disclosure of all ingredients in our food ought to be required by law. You saw what happened when the public became aware of the "pink slime" filler in beef. I think we'd have safer food on the whole if the public were better informed about what was going into the food we're eating. I also think we'd demand better food production practices if we were better informed about those practices. (Did you know that chicken shit is being fed to beef cattle? Did you know that 80 percent of all the antibiotics sold in the United States is being fed to the animals that we eat -- because the animals are maintained in such poor, illness-inducing conditions -- and that that is partly responsible for the super-bug strains in humans that can no longer be treated with antibiotics? I could go on.) I don't even know why any of this is controversial. I'll just leave it at that, as others here have articulated the issues better than I can anyway. |
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07/27/2012 05:54:58 PM · #9 |
Let me try to re-rail this also.
Those with conscience concerns are getting stay.
Feds Halt HHS Mandate Enforcement on Small Business Owner
Originally posted by from site:
A federal court issued an order Friday that halts enforcement of the Obama administration’s abortion pill mandate against a Colorado family-owned business while an Alliance Defending Freedom lawsuit challenging the mandate continues in court. |
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07/27/2012 02:36:26 PM · #10 |
| What Frisca said as she attempted to re-rail our derail. |
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07/27/2012 02:34:47 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Ok so... They are junk science? Where is the real science? Even the Straight Dope link you sent me said, "The dirty little secret among water fluoridation advocates is that while tooth decay has declined dramatically in places that fluoridate their water, it's dropped equally fast in places that don't." |
The real science is exactly where you would expect to find it– in peer reviewed journals like NEJM, JAMA, Lancet and so on. In many places that don't have water fluoridation (much of Europe, for example), fluoride is added to table salt just as we do with iodine here. Between that and fluoride toothpaste and modern dental care, it's hardly surprising that tooth decay has also declined dramatically in places without fluoridated water, however it remains very beneficial and cost effective.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
How can they say that and then at the same time say: "Long a target of fringe groups, fluoridation is widely considered one of the great public-health achievements of the last century." (Rereading this and obviously I don't get the original context.....?? Wasn't given in the article.) |
My prior post noted the CDC as the source, but you can read about it here.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
There is financial gain from supporting fluoride. But what are these anti-fluoride people aiming for? |
They are fighting for a deeply held belief, essentially the same as religious wingnuts. Financial gain (or actual facts) are not necessary. The ADA and WHO don't profit from fluoridation, and any indirect gain would be vastly offset by what they stand to lose by promoting bad science. A little common sense: if all the bad things attributed to fluoride were actually true, then people in areas like Texas, where the groundwater naturally contains far higher concentrations, would be dropping like flies. |
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07/27/2012 02:01:24 PM · #12 |
| I think the point that everyone is trying to make, or ought to be trying to make is not the merits of floride, but that we don't always have ready access to the full facts even with the appearance of such, and that seriously impedes our individual and collective ability to make fully informed choices. |
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07/27/2012 01:43:58 PM · #13 |
Ok so... They are junk science? Where is the real science? Even the Straight Dope link you sent me said, "The dirty little secret among water fluoridation advocates is that while tooth decay has declined dramatically in places that fluoridate their water, it's dropped equally fast in places that don't."
How can they say that and then at the same time say: "Long a target of fringe groups, fluoridation is widely considered one of the great public-health achievements of the last century." (Rereading this and obviously I don't get the original context.....?? Wasn't given in the article.)
False attribution at the least, outright lie at the worst.
Also what's the motivation? The climate change denial has an obvious motivation of keeping business as usual, or from a religious context, denying we have the power to hurt the planet (ala only God can do that).
There is financial gain from supporting fluoride. But what are these anti-fluoride people aiming for? Fluoride Action Network About Us[/url
[url=//water.epa.gov/lawsregs/rulesregs/regulatingcontaminants/sixyearreview/upload/2011_Fluoride_QuestionsAnswers.pdf]EPA reassesment of Fluoride
Message edited by author 2012-07-27 13:45:33. |
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07/26/2012 10:43:48 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
And these? |
Yes, those– junk science driven by a few fanatical groups, just like climate change denial. |
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07/26/2012 10:29:52 PM · #15 |
When I was a kid the john Birch Society told us fluoride was an attempt by Commies to poison us. Now it seems a loose association of Quacks have begun beating that drum again.
Dr.Joseph Mercola was one of the leaders of the return of the Anti fluoridation movement, and a famous internet fear monger and profiteer. He was often slapped down by the FDA for his false claims and junk science. Those websites are bad science and act primarily as methods of fund raising for fear mongers.
When complex subjects have opposing views I like to check with the straight dope. Interesting read.
Message edited by author 2012-07-26 22:33:46. |
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07/26/2012 08:26:40 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Don't get me started on fluoride... That is properly labeled in theory, just, you know, we were all lied to, and are still lied to about what it actually DOES and where it COMES from. |
That link is highly suspect, with some glaringly obvious factual errors. Fluoride is not an element (that's Fluorine), and the chief source is the mineral fluorite, not waste byproducts or smokestacks. Sodium fluoride is not highly toxic and extremely corrosive (that would be hydrogen fluoride), and the "flaky unproven science" has been extremely well established, with the CDC ranking water fluoridation as the 9th greatest public health achievement of the 20th century. This reads like a Fox News story against climate change. |
And these?
Fluoride facts
Dental Fluorosis
50 Reasons to Oppose Fluoride
To be fair I looked at some pro-fluoride sites. They were seriously lacking in citations... as in none. They mostly just said "it's safe it's safe" without referencing any studies. |
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07/26/2012 06:58:31 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Don't get me started on fluoride... That is properly labeled in theory, just, you know, we were all lied to, and are still lied to about what it actually DOES and where it COMES from. |
That link is highly suspect, with some glaringly obvious factual errors. Fluoride is not an element (that's Fluorine), and the chief source is the mineral fluorite, not waste byproducts or smokestacks. Sodium fluoride is not highly toxic and extremely corrosive (that would be hydrogen fluoride), and the "flaky unproven science" has been extremely well established, with the CDC ranking water fluoridation as the 9th greatest public health achievement of the 20th century. This reads like a Fox News story against climate change. |
It must be hard for some people to take you seriously when you have this hat fetish orgy going on next to each of your posts. Do you show up with goofy hats and in full makeup at GTGs too? :P
Message edited by author 2012-07-26 18:59:06. |
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07/26/2012 06:48:47 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Don't get me started on fluoride... That is properly labeled in theory, just, you know, we were all lied to, and are still lied to about what it actually DOES and where it COMES from. |
That link is highly suspect, with some glaringly obvious factual errors. Fluoride is not an element (that's Fluorine), and the chief source is the mineral fluorite, not waste byproducts or smokestacks. Sodium fluoride is not highly toxic and extremely corrosive (that would be hydrogen fluoride), and the "flaky unproven science" has been extremely well established, with the CDC ranking water fluoridation as the 9th greatest public health achievement of the 20th century. This reads like a Fox News story against climate change. |
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07/26/2012 05:53:14 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Every food package is required to list ingredients and caloric breakdown ... |
Yes, and "evaporated cane juice" sounds ever-so-much healthier and more natural than "sugar" ... |
"Lean finely textured beef" does sound more healthy than "pink slime". And of course not listing any of the pesticides helps the con game as well. Might as well just piss in the box and call it naturally flavored. |
Don't get me started on fluoride... That is properly labeled in theory, just, you know, we were all lied to, and are still lied to about what it actually DOES and where it COMES from.
What's in a name? An ingredient by any other name could be just as toxic and harmful...
Prime example of not actually being able to make a proper choice when corporations have been allowed to lie to you. I'm sure my dad didn't know he was having me sit with a mouthful of neurotoxins when I was a kid getting fluoride treatments.. He just wanted to take care of my teeth.
Message edited by author 2012-07-26 17:55:03. |
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07/26/2012 05:46:25 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Every food package is required to list ingredients and caloric breakdown ... |
Yes, and "evaporated cane juice" sounds ever-so-much healthier and more natural than "sugar" ... |
"Lean finely textured beef" does sound more healthy than "pink slime". And of course not listing any of the pesticides helps the con game as well. Might as well just piss in the box and call it naturally flavored. |
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07/26/2012 05:24:20 PM · #21 |
Did I EVER say anyone has to do the work for me? Again and again you misrepresent my argument that we should stand up for ourselves and our food to mean that I want the government to spoon feed me green smoothies and sprouted wheat bagels.
You seem to readily agree with car safety and then when it gets to food, blinders right back on.
On a point you made a while ago about getting to choose what we breath in. I know you were referring to cigarettes and other inhalants but you fail to realize many people DON'T get to choose what they breath in. Yellow dust comes over the sea from China and pollutes not only China but Korea as well. There were days where you could SEE a yellow layer on everything, imagine what it's doing in your lungs. Don't say they can move. They shouldn't have to try and jump through immigration hoops and hurdles and leave their own country because someone else is polluting their land. Just like I shouldn't avoid being a kindergarten teacher because there are cakes around. That's nonsense. I didn't leave my job because of sweets. I left because my contract was up and my time in Korea was finished. It's not a big deal, I was just trying to exemplify how our environment makes our logical choices harder. I'm not snorting sugar in the closet.
Fighting for food rights is more than just about what you put in your body. Corn, soy and other monocrop fields are killing miles and miles of habitats and making wastelands where there was once healthy soil. It goes SO MUCH beyond don't eat a twinkie and don't drink tequila.
Nothing is falling on deaf ears here, seems only on your end. Again and again I say I'm NOT a victim. But I have to work damn hard, and go above and beyond the norm to make my life choices. This is the funniest part about stances I take. When I fight about poverty, student loans, food safety, obesity, racial issues, gay rights, I am CONSTANTLY accused of playing the victim. And the irony is I'm not fighting for myself. I eat right, I have no loans, I'm thin, I can marry my partner, I'm a white girl, I'm not living in poverty (though I probably AM technically below the poverty line, I live a good life). I organize my life so that I'm not a victim. But it's not easy, and it's not the shown path and most of my friends and family don't get it, some even think I'm extreme. And I am VERY aware that I have a privilege most do not.
When you have to be "extreme" to live a healthy life. Something is wrong with the culture you come from don't you think?
I would really like you to go to Haiti or Thailand or any other 3rd world country, meet the people I met, see the people I saw and then try your "Don't be a victim, you can do it no matter your environment" speech there. See how well that goes over. If anyone needs to open their eyes here, it's you. Your ability to not be a victim comes in large part from the privilege to choose. Not everyone has that privilege.
Which is back to my point. If we let companies run amok, we DO lose that privilege to choose.
Message edited by author 2012-07-26 17:27:36. |
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07/26/2012 05:08:49 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I don't ignore my environment. Just because you don't agree with my views on certain thing doesn't mean I don't live without concern for my home and community. It's nice for you that you have it all figured out, but there's a lot more to life than what you know. Live and learn......and remain teachable if you want to grow and flourish in life. don't just discount others' experience and views simply because it doesn't necessarily fit into your parameters. |
Back at ya buddy. |
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07/26/2012 04:41:23 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by frisca:
All I can say is this: Your response has been ignorant, blind and "blame the victim" in its tone. You were wholly ungracious to Monica in your post to her above, calling her "judgemental and rabid" and though I, as SC, saw this, because I am participating in this debate, I chose not to moderate your post, but know that you're not fooling anyone with your "holier than thou" attitude. |
Wow.....does that little judgement and calling out fit within forum protocol?
Originally posted by frisca:
So glad you can blame yourself for all your problems and yet, seem unable to actually overcome them. Not one of us exists in a vaccuum and you seem to not want to recognize any external influence that can affect others simply because you feel none of them can influence YOU. |
Whatever you say, Pam. What I have seen is that when I raise a point that a few of you disagree with, I'm the rigid intolerant, and "ignorant, blind and "blame the victim" in my tone".
Actually I have, and do overcome a lot of my issues. I'm a fallible human, and I fall short on a regular basis. I keep plugging along, though, because I want to make the best of it. You know, when I do accomplish something IO've worked hard for, the gratification is tremendous......and I especially like it if I made it on my own.
I've tried to explain in various ways, apparently to deaf ears, that while it's a positively superb idea to have all of life be honest and safe, it isn't, and if you don't make it a point to look out for yourself ultimately, then you really can't blame anybody. If you want to be a victim, go ahead, but I don't want to be. If I am, I hope that it's something big, that was completely unforeseeable......not from a box of cereal.
Hey, I give up here. I really was trying to point out that part of the beauty of this country is that you can pretty much do and be anything, or anyone that you want. But nobody's going to do it for you, and it *IS* a jungle out there. I simply don't believe you should walk into the jungle with shorts and a tee shirt and expect someone else to cover your @$$.
I'll bow out now.....thanks, anyway.....
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07/26/2012 04:28:27 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I'm sorry, but the whole protect us from ourselves mentality to me is pretty sad. |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
How do you feel about multi-point seat belts, air bags, anti-lock brakes and crumple zones? I'm not sure if you are old enough to remember how hard the big three fought being forced to put in seat belts as standard equipment. I am glad that the seat belt is not optional equipment. |
I think they're wonderful. But they also came out of Europe and a lot of the progress that the American auto industry has been because of losing market share because better cars were being built everywhere else.
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I am not competent to decide if the meat in the market is safe, I need the USDA to protect me. I am not capable of looking at a toy and knowing if it is painted with lead paint, so I rely on the Toy Safety Standards Board. There are dangers out in the world that we are not capable of protecting ourselves from, we need others to keep those dangers off the market, or at least warn us of the dangers. |
I'm thinking that you're old enough that you know exactly what the dangers and ways to look out for yourself with many more things than the average Joe
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The government has to act as the middleman between the profitability of companies and the best interest of the populace. There are of course gross over-reaches and foolish warnings in that effort, but if you have ever been to truly poor parts of the world where the markets are truly free, you can see the dangers of lack of market control. I am glad I don't have to worry about melamine in my milk. Thank you big government. |
You all seem to be under the mistaken idea that I want all the precautions done away with across the board. This simply isn't the case. I'm more bemoaning the all too prevalent idea that we shouldn't have to do the work to take care of ourselves. I see too many people expecting life to be easy and safe......and that someone else needs to do it for them.
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07/26/2012 04:18:05 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
We are the people trying to look out for the health of our nation. |
Just remember, not everyone wants, or needs, your idea of how things should be. There are many ways to do things, and there are limits and extenuating circumstances as to why some things don't happen the way you want them to happen. One thing I have learned over the years is a certain amount of flexibility......not everyone's needs are the same. Neither are their circumstances.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
And on the sweets at my school: I'm no longer in that environment where crap is in my face every day, so I don't eat it. It's a lot easier to avoid the crap isles in the grocery store where you have to PAY for the junk, than it was for me to avoid FREE FOOD put DIRECTLY ON MY DESK every day at school that if I didn't eat, would go in the trash. Get it? |
Good for you, you figured it out. YOU needed to make the change, not everyone else around you.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
As an alcoholic, would you want to work in a bar? Or in a company that has company wide drinks twice a day? Would you be so strong that you could take that? |
It has nothing to do with strength. As an alcoholic, I know better than to work in a bar.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
You want to think there is no problem but the individuals. Ignore any signs that we have a problem on the SOCIETAL level. Yes, I AM glad we live in different worlds. That is something we agree on. Because your world is a partial reality, ignoring the big picture. |
I never said there aren't problems......you're making an assumption and jumping to an erroneous conclusion. When all the safeguards fail, when something slips through the cracks, there is *NO ONE* else responsible in the end but you when it comes to your life. The sooner you realize and accept that, you'll be a lot better off. Life isn't black and white......it's a multitude of shades of grey. That's the big picture.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
We are losing our voices and they are convincing folks like you that that's freedom and pit you against us. |
They? "They" are convincing me and pitting me against you? Where's this line? I'd love to see it. I'm not easily convinced of things from one viewpoint, and trust me, I make up my mind. Corporate rhetoric certainly doesn't dictate how I live. Where do you come up with this stuff?
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Again, to ignore environment is foolish. |
I don't ignore my environment. Just because you don't agree with my views on certain thing doesn't mean I don't live without concern for my home and community. It's nice for you that you have it all figured out, but there's a lot more to life than what you know. Live and learn......and remain teachable if you want to grow and flourish in life. don't just discount others' experience and views simply because it doesn't necessarily fit into your parameters.
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