Guns don't kill people - DPChallenge Forums

02/23/2012 08:03:55 PM · #203

Originally posted by sfalice:

Guns don't kill people, people kill people
So this 9-year-old should get the book thrown at him. It was not the fault of the inert bit of metal he brought to school. He then pointed this inert bit of metal at the 8-year-old and activated it.

The 8-year-old girl is in critical condition right now up there in the Seattle area.

So, tell me, why don't we enforce gun laws already on the books, and insist that guns are handled only by responsible citizens? why?

Okay, I'll stand aside now, and let the barrage fire.

Awww, dang. This thread has gone to Rant.

Will we never answer the question I raised in this thread? Never?
I don't monitor Rant threads as a usual thing, so this question is moot.

Isn't it, anyhow.

02/23/2012 08:09:33 PM · #204

For the record, the gun went off in the kid's backpack - he did not shoot her on purpose. ...so I guess guns do kill people. Or could. She will hopefully survive.

Tragic, yes. But I come down on the side of common sense and bigger problems that need solving - i.e. cars kill MANY more people, etc.

02/23/2012 08:12:14 PM · #205

Second time in the past few months a kid's gun has gone off in a backpack and shot someone in school. Happened down here not that long ago. The answer is obvious.... we need to get rid of backpacks! Backpacks kill people!

Not funny, though. Imagine if the kid who got shot was yours. All he or she was doing was going to school, and blam. Shot by a gun in a backpack? Almost surreal if it weren't for the life-threatening part of it.

02/23/2012 08:15:46 PM · #206

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Okay, Art_, I understand your point here, but how about part two of that question:

So, tell me, why don't we enforce gun laws already on the books,
and insist that guns are handled only by responsible citizens? why?

Oh, what the heck, I'll go for broke here:
How many homicides by car do you hear about?

Message edited by author 2012-02-23 20:17:52.

02/23/2012 08:56:07 PM · #207

A few homicides by car, yes. Probably not as many as by gun. But I think people here are talking about accidental deaths, where the dead are still dead regardless of method.

I have no idea why gun laws are not enforced. Lack of manpower? Intrusiveness perceived by the gun owners? The fact that many crimes are only crimes AFTER they are committed and not before?

If the kids' parents had a license to own the gun, what law were they breaking by not knowing where it was, and how would that have been enforced? Surely the nutcase in Arizona should never have had a gun, but I think he actually did buy it, didn't he? He did have trouble buying ammunition if I recall. At least one Walmart clerk thought him too nuts to sell him bullets... I may not have all my data on that one straight, though.

If we in the United States, as a society, wish to own weapons (and we most certainly do!), we have to accept the consequences.

02/23/2012 09:11:21 PM · #208

Originally posted by Melethia:

Melethia, my reference was to Ken's sentence:

Tragic, yes. But I come down on the side of common sense and bigger problems that need solving - i.e. cars kill MANY more people, etc.
By doing comparisons (guns kill people vs cars kill people), instead of searching for solutions to preventable gun deaths/woundings , we continue to beg the question of how to get this problem under control.

02/23/2012 09:30:35 PM · #209

I know, and I still don't see the car/gun analogy, since cars are not designed to be weapons - guns are. Heck, we have to watch when we move pianos in NYC because if you drop one of those suckers when someone is underneath, well...

My other comment in my earlier car/gun post (I keep typing "bun"...) was that we do all sorts of data gathering and research to make cars safer for all involved - why don't we do the same with guns? This is the second incident of a gun going off in a backpack in a year... surely something can be done to make sure guns can't go off when simply being schlepped around, can't it? Even if being schlepped by school children? Or perhaps especially?

I don't have any answers. I DO think accidental deaths from handguns is a worthy problem to consider. If only for the victims' families. We already DO a lot to prevent car deaths. Remember the days of no seat belts?

02/23/2012 09:51:08 PM · #210

Originally posted by Melethia:

The only gun/car analogy that holds any relevance, as far as I am concerned, is the one of licensing.
Drive a car? Get a license first. Own a handgun? get a license to use it.

Safety? Sure, for example there are, even now, controls that prevent a gun from firing until a trigger safety lock is released.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

02/24/2012 03:07:40 AM · #211

Originally posted by sfalice:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
For the record, the gun went off in the kid's backpack - he did not shoot her on purpose. ...so I guess guns do kill people. Or could. She will hopefully survive.

Tragic, yes. But I come down on the side of common sense and bigger problems that need solving - i.e. cars kill MANY more people, etc.

Okay, Art_, I understand your point here, but how about part two of that question:

So, tell me, why don't we enforce gun laws already on the books,
and insist that guns are handled only by responsible citizens? why?

Oh, what the heck, I'll go for broke here:
How many homicides by car do you hear about?

When I said cars kill - I didn't necessarily mean homicide. Since the topic is really about accidental deaths, let's look at the numbers:
- Motor Vehicle Incidents (42,000 annual deaths)
- Poisoning (39,000 annual deaths) - It never happened to me because I am fully trained and licensed to eat.
- Falling (25,000 annual deaths) - I found this one surprising. Maybe people shouldn't be allowed to walk until they pass a safety course and everyone should wear those inflatable Sumo Wrestling suits.
- Fires (2,700 annual deaths) - I had easy access to guns, booze and matches when I was a very young delinquent (around age 11-12) and I played with fire far more than the guns.
- Choking (Approximately 2,500 deaths per year) - Again, my training included Advanced Mastication, so I have averted this fate as well.
- Drowning (2,000 annual deaths) - Hot tubs kill people.
- Accidental Shootings (~600 annual deaths)

I heard someone put it this way: When tragedies occur, some people are always trying to find a legislative solution to prevent them from happening again and that is just not going to happen. Tragedies will always occur. I don't have a problem with increasing awareness, education, revoking permits for those who have proven to not be responsible, etc. but I look at these issues in a prioritized view - guns are not this country's biggest problem by any stretch, so let's do something about it when it gets near the top of the list. I'm also not interested in comparing the US with any other country - if I thought those countries were better, I'd go live there. :P

As far as the question regarding enforcement - I have no idea why we would not / do not enforce these laws. I assume it's more an issue of resources, inefficiencies and/or incompetence on the part of the government. Or maybe the government is doing it intentionally to thin the herd. ;-)

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

02/24/2012 05:37:12 AM · #212

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

...any bets that religious fanticism, political decisions and financial considerations kill a lot more.

Now there are issues that really ought to be addressed.

Ray

02/24/2012 07:09:48 AM · #213

Ken, I accidentally fell out of enough trees, stuck my fingers in enough electrical sockets and ingested enough unsavory things as a kid to wonder how I or any of us made it to maturity. But I love the way you phrased your account.

Accident? Well, in this hypothetical situation, the owner of the handgun might have accidentally unlocked his safe storage locker, removed his fully loaded gun, accidentally took off the safety, got involved in a discussion and accidentally left his gun on the kitchen table.

Whereupon a little 9 year old saw it, said "Cool, is this a real one! I will take it to school and show Billy." Unfortunately, for the little boy and the little girl involved, the backpack got heavy, got slammed onto a desk - typical 9 year old behavior.

And the rest is the "accidental" tragedy.

My thought through all this is, with proficiency training, the owner of that handgun would have known how to handle, store, shoot, clean, and preserve it safely. Then there would be no "accident."

What can we do? We can enforce the laws on the books and make new ones to ensure only those properly trained are licensed to use guns.
We can support those who do enforce the laws by saying "nice job" rather than "why don't you pick on the real crooks, instead of penny ante stuff like this!"

And, at the very least, we can use these forums to express our concern for both the children and what has happened. This "accident" will scar both those kids and their families for life.

Perhaps by so doing, we can help prevent another of these "accidents."

Telling them and others that they ought to be more careful, or that other problems cause more fatalities somehow, to me, misses the point here.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

02/24/2012 09:26:33 AM · #214

I agree that we wickedly over-legislate stuff that doesn't need to be legislated. I think Alice is trying to get at "what can we as a society do?" when in reality the answer is most likely "nothing". Not a damn thing, other than to teach our own kids not to stick loaded guns into backpacks and take them to school. Or to hope, fervently, that idiots don't buy guns. Which is like spitting into the wind, only with slightly more dire consequences in minute instances.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

02/24/2012 10:01:00 AM · #215

Originally posted by Melethia:

Gun laws, like all laws, are selectively enforced. If all laws were universally enforced, we'd all be in prison.

That said, I don't know about other states, but I know that here, there is a state law specifically against allowing children unsupervised access to firearms. I'm sure that other laws apply as well (child endangerment etc). I'm sure those parents are getting really familiar with law enforcement and child protective services, which in this case, may actually be a good thing.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

02/24/2012 10:07:12 AM · #216

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

But that gun, while unattended at the time it discharged, was loaded and left accessible through the actions or inactions of a person.

It's like leaving your car running with a kid in the back and blaming the car when the kid bumps into the shifter and puts the car into gear and drives through the house and into the pool. Who's at fault? The car? The person who left it running? The kid?

02/24/2012 12:07:23 PM · #217

Originally posted by Melethia:

Yes,

Melethia, I suppose that's what I really am getting at. What can we, as a society do.
The one completely democratic thing to do is to demand education for all who wish to own a handgun.
At least one state has a pistol permit law, let's make it all of them, as long as it's just wishful thinking.

In my husband's family, it was a rite of passage: become an adult, get your permit...After having received supervised training.
I expect there were provisions for the men and women who received training earlier in the armed forces.
And for youngsters who belonged to hunt clubs and target shooting clubs.

Thus teaching responsible care and use of handguns.

I just don't understand why this is such a big deal. Don't we, as a society, want our people to be safe,
responsible citizens?

02/24/2012 12:15:22 PM · #218

We can't (and in my opinion shouldn't) legislate moral responsibility. Any more than we should legislate who one can marry, but that's a whole 'nuther shootin' match. :)

02/24/2012 12:27:04 PM · #219

Originally posted by Melethia:

We can't (and in my opinion shouldn't) legislate moral responsibility. Any more than we should legislate who one can marry, but that's a whole 'nuther shootin' match. :)

Oh, Deb. And therein is the difference, I guess.
I do not equate gun responsibility with moral responsibility.
I think of it as citizen safety.
You know, something like:
We require hairdressers to get a license before cutting hair.
We require lawyers to get a license before practicing law,
....and drivers before they can operate a vehicle...and on and on.
ETA: and all these licenses require training, don't they.

Message edited by author 2012-02-24 12:27:45.

02/24/2012 12:35:02 PM · #220

Oh I agree 100% with the need to get a license! It's the moral responsibility to teach children not to play with loaded weapons we can't legislate.

Edit to add that I would hope responsible gun owners would not object to a licensing requirement. Is that a valid assumption?

Message edited by author 2012-02-24 12:39:03.

02/24/2012 12:40:36 PM · #221

Originally posted by Melethia:

Oh I agree 100% with the need to get a license! It's the moral responsibility to teach children not to play with loaded weapons we can't legislate.

Whew, we're back on the same page, Deb.

Yes, the halcyon days of Mommy & Daddy, Sonny & Sis and the dog named Spot
are long gone, if they ever existed. Today we face the fact of dysfunctional
families and the inability of many folks to adequately bring up our young.

As you say, the moral responsibility is a responsibility we cannot teach.
but we can make the playing field a bit more level with firearm education.

02/24/2012 12:43:52 PM · #222

Originally posted by Melethia:

Oh I agree 100% with the need to get a license! It's the moral responsibility to teach children not to play with loaded weapons we can't legislate.

Edit to add that I would hope responsible gun owners would not object to a licensing requirement. Is that a valid assumption?

I would love to say "yes" Deb, but I've advocated licensing and training quite a few times in this thread alone, and
so far, no one, including those who consider themselves careful with guns, have taken up the subject.

02/24/2012 01:17:21 PM · #223

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
For the record, the gun went off in the kid's backpack - he did not shoot her on purpose. ...so I guess guns do kill people. Or could. She will hopefully survive.

Tragic, yes. But I come down on the side of common sense and bigger problems that need solving - i.e. cars kill MANY more people, etc.

But that gun, while unattended at the time it discharged, was loaded and left accessible through the actions or inactions of a person.

It's like leaving your car running with a kid in the back and blaming the car when the kid bumps into the shifter and puts the car into gear and drives through the house and into the pool. Who's at fault? The car? The person who left it running? The kid?

I agree. I was being sarcastic.

02/24/2012 01:26:22 PM · #224

Originally posted by sfalice:

Originally posted by Melethia:
Oh I agree 100% with the need to get a license! It's the moral responsibility to teach children not to play with loaded weapons we can't legislate.

Edit to add that I would hope responsible gun owners would not object to a licensing requirement. Is that a valid assumption?

I would love to say "yes" Deb, but I've advocated licensing and training quite a few times in this thread alone, and
so far, no one, including those who consider themselves careful with guns, have taken up the subject.

I didn't see any arguments against it. I would not oppose it. Not sure if it would have helped this specific case. In fact, there may already be such requirements in WA state, but I'm not sure. I don't own a gun.