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11/04/2011 05:07:28 PM · #201 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Free market capitalism us by far the best economic structure to have. I can be rich, you can be rich, anyone can be rich, with a good idea and hard work. But so many people feel they are entitled to everything. Lets not tear it down because some greedy bastards lacked control and had no oversight. |
"Anyone" can be rich, but not "everyone" can be rich -- in order for YOU to be rich it requires about 70-80 people to live modestly or less, and another 20-30 to live in poverty -- that's just how the math (and the current system) works. |
Commie! ;) |
Nope -- never ... I don't believe in the dictatorship of the proletariat any more than I believe in any other form of dictatorship (at least, where I'm not dictator -- an office I'd have to either decline or abolish).
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I've seen too many of your posts Judith to consider you anything close to unbiased. You sit far to the left of me so, in my book, you are just as dangerous as those far to my right. Nothing personal. You are probably a nice lady and we'd have a good dinner. But when you talk politics you are just another talking head, the anti-FOX if you will. |
What would Jesus think of investment bankers and corporate polluters? Would he sit to your left or your right?
Since the SCOTUS has defined corporations as persons, does that mean they have souls? And if so, can they be saved without confessing their sins?
I must admit, the idea of BP or BofA burning forever does present an enticing argument for reconsidering my belief (or lack thereof) in Divine retribution ... |
I want to see one convicted and put in prison. |
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11/04/2011 05:10:23 PM · #202 |
I was busy adding to my post while you were typing yours Paul.
Jesus would probably be somewhat to my left, but then he'd likely be quite a bit to your right on some issues as well... ;) It doesn't seem like he had an preoccupation with railing against the "rich", but he certainly did not stand for oppression. |
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11/04/2011 05:12:35 PM · #203 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
So now you know why I rail against the BIG LIE that Fannie and Freddie and Barney Frank are entirely to blame for the financial crisis. |
Whoever said they were entirely to blame? Nobody here.
Of course you are correct that there are many factors, but of course Spork (who I was replying to) only chose to mention one (the greedy bankers). I was pointing out that if we are only going to mention one of the many causes we can easily make the story sound completely different. I wasn't disagreeing with his point that the banks brought this upon us by giving loans to anybody with a pulse, just indirectly showing that it's a tunnel vision narrative.
I've seen too many of your posts Judith to consider you anything close to unbiased. You sit far to the left of me so, in my book, you are just as dangerous as those far to my right. Nothing personal. You are probably a nice lady and we'd have a good dinner. But when you talk politics you are just another talking head, the anti-FOX if you will. |
I never claimed to be unbiased, unlike some here who like to pretend that they are but always end up on one side. And I really don't give a hoot that you consider me dangerous. lol!
The point that I keep trying to make, and that I thought Mike Taibbi made very well in his article that I posted, is that, taken in its total context, the financial crisis was overwhelmingly a product of the unregulated free market, not government involvement. And it is NOT tunnel vision to call it what it is. I think the problem is that you really don't have enough background in finance and economics to make a credible judgment, so you fall back to your safe, middle-of-the-road position of "well, they all suck and they're all to blame." |
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11/04/2011 05:15:47 PM · #204 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Lets not tear it down because some greedy bastards lacked control and had no oversight. |
It is their job to be greedy bastards. Both nature of the beast, and their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. That they lacked oversight was due to the fact that the only oversight they had was governmental oversight (Glass–Steagall and the SEC) which was removed because it was deemed too restrictive.
If you take restrictor plates off race cars, expect more accidents. When you encourage high risk behavior in banks, expect failures. You can't blame people who's job it is to maximize their profit for being greedy any more than you can expect a tiger to become a herbivore. Any unregulated system goes through a cycle of boom and bust, feast and famine. If you are going to allow true laissez-faire capitalism with little governmental oversight, you have to be willing to accept a great deal of pain as collateral damage from market corrections on steroids.
Message edited by author 2011-11-04 17:17:23. |
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11/04/2011 05:30:52 PM · #205 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
I never claimed to be unbiased, unlike some here who like to pretend that they are but always end up on one side. And I really don't give a hoot that you consider me dangerous. lol!
The point that I keep trying to make, and that I thought Mike Taibbi made very well in his article that I posted, is that, taken in its total context, the financial crisis was overwhelmingly a product of the unregulated free market, not government involvement. And it is NOT tunnel vision to call it what it is. I think the problem is that you really don't have enough background in finance and economics to make a credible judgment, so you fall back to your safe, middle-of-the-road position of "well, they all suck and they're all to blame." |
That's not unfair. I do lack formal finance or economic training, but I've read and watched and heard enough to know there are very smart people who would tell us that the only sane thing to do is to drastically cut taxes to stimulate the economy. There are other very smart people who say that's the worst thing in the world to do. Seems like collectively the economists' education hasn't gotten them much further than little old me watching from my armchair in the middle.
It strikes me that NOBODY has a clear picture and in those cases walking the middle path seems the most sane. Are we on the middle path right now? No, I don't think so. We are too far right. But there's no way I personally want to move where I suspect you do. And I'm confident enough in my intelligence to be able to discount any advice your financial or economic training may have from your undergrad education at (insert far left school name here). I always seem to fall on the same side of an issue to you because there IS no side to your left.
Message edited by author 2011-11-04 17:37:08. |
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11/04/2011 05:49:10 PM · #206 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Jesus would probably be somewhat to my left, but then he'd likely be quite a bit to your right on some issues as well... ;) |
Perhaps ... I can't think of many myself, though you are welcome to post or PM me with areas/issues you consider possible conflicts ...
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It doesn't seem like he had an preoccupation with railing against the "rich", but he certainly did not stand for oppression. |
Not the rich per se, but it seems to me there was some problem with making money off of interest (a.k.a. "capital gains") -- a Biblical prohibition respected today by devout Islamists, but conveniently overlooked by our impious corporate citizenry ...
I don't have a problem with someone getting rich making something useful or performing a useful service, a category into which manipulating financial instruments for financial advantage does not fit, as it creates nothing useful but more wealth. Not saying investment bankers should work for free, but I don't see why they should get paid more than other highly-trained professionals in positions of great responsibilites ... say, teachers. Surely $60K or so is enough for someone with twenty years experience to live on ...
How do you reconcile "unfettered" Capitalism, which is based on the premise that the potential for acquisition of personal wealth is the best motivator with the section from Timothy stating that the "Love of money is the root of all evil" (note: NOT "money" itself!)? |
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11/04/2011 05:50:38 PM · #207 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I always seem to fall on the same side of an issue to you because there IS no side to your left. |
Just as 90% of the population sees itself as middle class (9.5% poor know they are poor, 0.5% self identifies as well off) we all see ourselves as in the middle, with plenty of room to either side on any question of identity. A person far away from us seems to be at the extreme edge of the world, but if you stood where they are, from that distance your view would look pretty close to the horizon.
My political view point may be far left in Des Moines, but I'm center-right in Berkeley. |
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11/04/2011 06:03:39 PM · #208 |
| At least on those political tests you can do online (you know the ones), I am just to the left of center repeatedly. Take that for what it's worth. |
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11/04/2011 06:18:17 PM · #209 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Just as 90% of the population sees itself as middle class (9.5% poor know they are poor, 0.5% self identifies as well off) we all see ourselves as in the middle, with plenty of room to either side on any question of identity. A person far away from us seems to be at the extreme edge of the world, but if you stood where they are, from that distance your view would look pretty close to the horizon.
My political view point may be far left in Des Moines, but I'm center-right in Berkeley. |
Exactly. If I were as far left as DrAchoo would like to make out, I'd be manning the barricades with those anarchists (if that's what they are) in Oakland.
With respect to OWS, I think it's actually quite a conservative movement. The participants are not calling for the overthrow of capitalism, not even close. To this point in time, as far as I can tell, they're calling for reasonable restraints on the free market to restore some equity in the distribution not only of wealth but of opportunity, and calling for less influence of money and power on the political system to restore a functioning democracy. Nothing for all you middle-of-the-roaders to be frightened of. :-)
Message edited by author 2011-11-04 18:18:36. |
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11/04/2011 06:20:38 PM · #210 |
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11/04/2011 06:32:50 PM · #211 |
I know we've done this before over the years, but it may be fun. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.59
And we can all go in knowing it's just an online test and isn't the final word on anything. |
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11/04/2011 06:51:55 PM · #212 |
Economic Left/Right: -7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92 |
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11/04/2011 06:54:32 PM · #213 |
| Well, we can say we're in the same quadrant! ;) |
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11/04/2011 06:55:41 PM · #214 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I know we've done this before over the years, but it may be fun. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.59
And we can all go in knowing it's just an online test and isn't the final word on anything. |
Here's mine...
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -8.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69
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11/04/2011 07:01:33 PM · #215 |
| Kelli, I wrote you off YEARS ago! ;) |
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11/04/2011 07:01:33 PM · #216 |
Just completed the test and the results are as follows:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.85
That makes me a good guy right Doc. :O)
Ray |
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11/04/2011 07:02:22 PM · #217 |
| noooooooo i did the whole damn thing and it didn't copy and i x'd out......gurrrrrrrrrrr now i gotta do it again |
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11/04/2011 07:08:23 PM · #218 |
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: -7.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.18
This may surprise some :-)
R.
ETA: I wonder if ANYONE in DPC is going to show plus numbers in this thread?
Message edited by author 2011-11-04 19:09:34.
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11/04/2011 07:10:33 PM · #219 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: -7.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.18
This may surprise some :-)
R.
ETA: I wonder if ANYONE in DPC is going to show plus numbers in this thread? |
Is surprise the same as shock? ... hehehehe
Ray |
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11/04/2011 07:11:03 PM · #220 |
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -7.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.33 |
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11/04/2011 07:13:48 PM · #221 |
Economic Left/Right: -6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.46 |
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11/04/2011 07:15:08 PM · #222 |
| Gee, DrAchoo, it looks like one of your best friends is a "dangerous" radical. :-) |
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11/04/2011 07:20:08 PM · #223 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Just completed the test and the results are as follows:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.85
That makes me a good guy right Doc. :O)
Ray |
Your results actually surprise me the most so far. I thought you'd be far more left than your scores reflect. |
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11/04/2011 07:22:38 PM · #224 |
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11/04/2011 07:28:33 PM · #225 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: -7.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.18
This may surprise some :-)
R.
ETA: I wonder if ANYONE in DPC is going to show plus numbers in this thread? |
You know, it may be a bias in the test (or DPC is extra liberal which makes some sense). I was looking for my previous numbers and ran across a thread from 2006 and Flash was only +1. That gave me pause because he seemed to talk the talk of a right winger.
Interestingly I saw your numbers from five years ago and they were both in the -5 range. Seems to hold fairly steady. |
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