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04/03/2004 10:35:05 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
If we're looking to make this a less watered-down exercise, then not allowing you to vote in a challenge in which you compete is one way to reduce the effort and make for a more focused and deliberate voting exercise. |
Are we?
Originally posted by muckpond:
whatever the solution, something's got to be done. we've been found out! and the challenges are getting harder and harder to wade through. not to mention, it's taking a significant amount of time. most of us have such little free time anyway, and i'd prefer to spend more of it actually taking pictures! |
I don't think it is imperative that we change dpc. It can continue exactly as it is. There has always been a wide variance in the amount of time different members have to put into the site. We've survived with that. IMHO, discouraging potential voters/commenters is a detriment.
Maybe the magazine mention will bring an onslaught of newbies. Let them find what they expected. If we begin to suffocate there are lot's of ways to slow the growth without changing the fundamental nature of the site. |
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04/03/2004 10:36:28 AM · #27 |
I think that having the multiple challenges per week works well from the standpoint that you may have say three topics to choose from, and you could concentrate on one of the topics that may be a strength for you rather than just rush to submit something just for the sake of submitting it.
My original thought of not allowing someone to vote in the challenge that they submit in was made for two reasons -
1) it would cut back on the number of entries that you would have to vote on, theoretically by 1/3 - possibly you could still be able to browse the photos and make comments on them though
2) I think that it would also cut back on the lower voting that happens, maybe subconciously, to help give your shot a boost in the ratings
I do like the idea of the first pass/screening round also, but if there were to be some sort of committee put together to do this I think it should be a nice cross section of the membership - an odd number to avoid tie votes - and made up of a long term member (2 yrs +, a mid term member (1-2 yrs) and a new member (less than 1 yr).
I would be happy to help out in any capacity that the admins see fit.
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04/03/2004 10:56:03 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I don't think it is imperative that we change dpc. It can continue exactly as it is. There has always been a wide variance in the amount of time different members have to put into the site. We've survived with that. IMHO, discouraging potential voters/commenters is a detriment.
Maybe the magazine mention will bring an onslaught of newbies. Let them find what they expected. If we begin to suffocate there are lot's of ways to slow the growth without changing the fundamental nature of the site. |
I think it is an important discussion to have. Firstly, I don't think anyone actually wants to slow the growth. However, it seems pretty obvious that what works for 100 entries, doesn't work without any change for 1000 entries. (Some sites I'm aware of get about 10,000 entries for a monthly challenge - we could be there fairly soon)
I don't quite understand why you think some sort of elimination type rounds would discourage potential voters/ commenters though - would be good to understand that a bit more. I personally experience the opposite effect - the large number of variable quality of entries to the open challenges has effectively meant I've stopped voting or commenting on them. I don't see that improving as entries move up to 500 or 1000.
As to moodville's concern that nobody would vote until the first cut or second cut had been made, we could make the cuts dependant on enough people voting - there will no doubt always be, as has been mentioned, those who have more time than others to vote and who would be willing to vote and comment on the entire range of images.
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04/03/2004 11:11:39 AM · #29 |
I’ve been a bit scared to jump into this thread; I am afraid I nominated the site for mention in PC Magazine’s story. Please don’t hate me! :) I’ve been coming here for several months, though, and the site certainly has been growing even without that mention—it’s just too excellent to stay a secret. That said, I’m very attached to DPC, and I would hate to see it lose its soul.
The challenge is to help the site evolve without losing the strong community and learning value. This thread is heartening. I think some of the suggestions here are excellent, especially jmsetzler̢۪s.
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04/03/2004 11:38:06 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by cmangis:
I̢۪ve been a bit scared to jump into this thread; I am afraid I nominated the site for mention in PC Magazine̢۪s story. Please don̢۪t hate me! :) |
Don't be silly :)
I applaud you for making the suggestion and getting it published. I'm sure the site admins do too :)
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04/03/2004 12:24:12 PM · #31 |
I guess I don't quite understnad the concept behind the first pass and second pass thing. From what I have heard, it soundslike a good idea. I would certainly volunteer for that comittee.
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04/03/2004 12:58:28 PM · #32 |
I know I'm going to get alot of flak for this, but I really feel that the only way to make meaningful changes and reduce the rif-raf is to institute new monetary requirements, either for membership, or for individual challenges. Having more challenges per week and first/second pass stages is going to complicate things. The $25 we pay for membership amounts to very little and I think that photographers who are very serious about their hobby, and already paying lots of money for their gear, will not mind paying a bit more for membership...say $40 for the year. A registered user could pay then maybe $15 to be able to enter open challenges. I think that would cut down on a lot of people who aren't really that serious about photography, but join an organization such as DPC when they see it's totally free.
I also wonder how many people join DPC and after a few weeks get bored and leave...They may enter a few contests and then not partake in any more after a few weeks. Now I know we should encourage newbies to join and get interested in Dig photography, but maybe these types of people should only be able to partake in challenges (including just voting) if they pay their $15 registered user fee. Or maybe, they could vote, but their vote not be tabulated in the final scores.
Any thoughts? |
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04/03/2004 01:04:25 PM · #33 |
One thing is certain, the situation will become worse unless some changes are made.
Because of the way that images are presented (randomly) for scoring, all entries
have roughly the same opportunity to be scored. The pool of potential critics is
large enough to ensure that any worthy image is scored well. The concept of eliminating
low scoring images from competition at midpoint (or perhaps earlier)in the voting period could
be a significant improvement. This idea would allow more thorough evaluation of the
better efforts, but those eliminated would not benefit from critique. So it is a double edged sword.
Maybe a significant increase in the number of challenges available would be a better solution, but
that also dilutes the prestige of winning.
No easy answers!! |
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04/03/2004 01:17:47 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
One thing is certain, the situation will become worse unless some changes are made. |
I don't think that's a certainty at all.
I find there's much more of a problem with people flaming each other over comments which are either not constructive, or misinterpreted to seem so, I think this is much more likely to undermine both the function and spirit of DPC than the number of members or entries. I personally am less enthused about voting/vommenting as I read thread after thread of complaints about comments left on photos. If we continue down this road of incivility I don't think we'll have to worry about being overwhelmed by new participants ....
This IS a site for new people as well ... I think cutting out lower-scoring photos deprives those who need it the most the feedback they "obviously" need. It also is going to be weighted towards those who have the opportunity to vote early in the period; those who have to/choose to vote later won't see a lot a photos. |
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04/03/2004 01:18:10 PM · #35 |
| I am not at all opposed to offering more challenges. I don't mind that we were mentioned in PC mag, in fact it's kinda cool to have been here before the place gets "discovered". I join with cmangis in not wanting to see this site "lose its soul". Having a committee weed out half of the entries is a far cry from peer voting. I don't consider the lesser quality entries that enlarge the challenges to be "fluff" or "rif-raf". I consider them to be entries from begining digital photographers who have the most to gain here. Most of us were in that same place when we found the site. I haven't found any other sites as beneficial and welcoming to the beginners as dpc. |
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04/03/2004 01:32:47 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
This idea would allow more thorough evaluation of the
better efforts, but those eliminated would not benefit from critique. |
My guess is that they already don't benefit much more from critique after the first couple of days. I could be completely wrong in this, but once the first few people tell you how dull/ boring/ badly taken a shot is, I don't know that hearing it more times adds much. Like I said, if someone can throw out some good examples of where this isn't true, I'd be happy to be wrong. (this doesn't include the odd great image that got thrown to the end due to being 'off topic' or something - the issue is would we be not helping people who need help - I think they already get as much as they are going to get - dropping the image half way through wouldn't change that) |
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04/03/2004 01:35:59 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I think cutting out lower-scoring photos deprives those who need it the most the feedback they "obviously" need. It also is going to be weighted towards those who have the opportunity to vote early in the period; those who have to/choose to vote later won't see a lot a photos. |
The first part of your comment I'm not convinced is true. How many low scoring images (say the bottom 25%) can you find that actually have lots of helpful comments on them that don't repeat the same thing across the board ?
Also, there is nothing to say that the pool of 'cut' shots couldn't still be available for commenting - if someone is going to go comment on bad pictures (assuming the dpcgroupthink definition of 'bad') then they can go comment on them - in fact it should be a more focused search. We could have a link to them on the voting page, just sift them out of the voting pool - have a link for 'First Cut' images that people can go look at them, tell the photographer how badly wrong the voters were, leave helpful feedback, etc.
The people who wouldn't comment on them, wouldn't comment on them anyway, other than probably some unhelpful, disparaging mark and a low vote - does that help ?
The other options are the beginner/intermediate/advanced type ladder approaches.
Though you think it isn't obviously a problem - how long does it take you to effectively vote on 400 images, giving them careful consideration that they deserve and writing helpful feedback to the people who 'obviously' need the most help ? How about 800 ?
Message edited by author 2004-04-03 13:37:00. |
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04/03/2004 01:40:30 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I consider them to be entries from begining digital photographers who have the most to gain here. Most of us were in that same place when we found the site. I haven't found any other sites as beneficial and welcoming to the beginners as dpc. |
Once again (just for emphasis :) ) I don't think I've seen any evidence that the comments on the bad images really help much or educate. I think it is more a myth than anything else - though I'm still happy to be proven wrong.
A bad score might help you realise that everyone doesn't like something about your image.
Comments might even point it out (bad focus, bad subject) but that's it. The forums can be very educational.
Reading books, taking classes, reading web sites can be very educational.
100 people saying you suck is just as educational as 400. More votes that just reenforce the point and more comments that again just drive home the same superficial failing don't help (though again, I'd be happily proven wrong with more than one example of this, and not some weird corner case)
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04/03/2004 01:42:09 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by ElGordo:
This idea would allow more thorough evaluation of the
better efforts, but those eliminated would not benefit from critique. |
My guess is that they already don't benefit much more from critique after the first couple of days. I could be completely wrong in this, but once the first few people tell you how dull/ boring/ badly taken a shot is, I don't know that hearing it more times adds much. |
You are (mistakenly) supposing that the comments would come in the first few days.
As this site's pre-eminent purveyor of mid-4 shots, I will tell you that those images suffer from a dearth of comments overall, often fewer than five. To cut off half the time available for someone to comment will not help that situation.
And instead of declaring how "dull/ boring/ badly taken" a photo is, you could perhaps suggest a different perspective or crop, or returning when the light is better, or a different version of the subject.
To tell someone who doesn't know you (and your likes and values) that an image is "boring" is not constructive feedback -- it is an anonymous opinion and a waste of time for both of you, since there is no way for the photographer to use that information to take a better photo next time. |
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04/03/2004 01:46:24 PM · #40 |
The other options are the beginner/intermediate/advanced type ladder approaches.
text
I like this idea! Advanced photogs would not enter beginners contests because of the lower prestige level! Kind of self policing!
How about a requirement that advanced members evaluate some minimum number of beginner/intermediate entries each month? Could
beginners critique 'advanced' entries? Some details to iron out, but a worthwhile consideration. |
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04/03/2004 01:48:44 PM · #41 |
I know there are a good handful of people that give excellent critiques and try to take there time doing so. I have recieved some EXCELLENT critiques from a LOT of people. So I would like to thank all of those who take the time to leave critiques that are insightful (cause I know there are a good handfull of you out there!)
I think the people that leave comments like "boring, dull" or whatever are those who are trying to increase the amount of comments on their profile page (I know this isn't ALWAYS the case). I, for one, don't care about how many comments I have made, I just know that when I give one (generally), I try to make it as constructive and useful as possible.
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04/03/2004 01:51:43 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
The other options are the beginner/intermediate/advanced type ladder approaches.
text
I like this idea! Advanced photogs would not enter beginners contests because of the lower prestige level! Kind of self policing!
How about a requirement that advanced members evaluate some minimum number of beginner/intermediate entries each month? Could
beginners critique 'advanced' entries? Some details to iron out, but a worthwhile consideration. |
The problem with this is: What would determine what level you are? There are just way too many variables.
Also, having these different levels, I think, would take away how special a ribbon is.
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04/03/2004 01:52:05 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
You are (mistakenly) supposing that the comments would come in the first few days.
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I'm basing it on having looked at a lot of the bottom end scores and comments. The comments they all get in the first few days just get repeated over and over. |
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04/03/2004 01:56:12 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
And instead of declaring how "dull/ boring/ badly taken" a photo is, you could perhaps suggest a different perspective or crop, or returning when the light is better, or a different version of the subject.
To tell someone who doesn't know you (and your likes and values) that an image is "boring" is not constructive feedback -- it is an anonymous opinion and a waste of time for both of you, since there is no way for the photographer to use that information to take a better photo next time. |
Absolutely - so, as the pre-eminent purveyor of those types of shots, you are possibly best placed to answer. How many insightful, eye-opening comments that have changed your view and educated you on how to take a better, non-4 scoring picture have you had in comments on your pictures ? Can you point them out ? When did the comments get made ? Was it unique, or do you normally just get the same thought repeated, commenting on the most superficial feature of the shot ?
I made a post a few weeks ago saying I'd only ever learned one useful thing from comments here (and someone made a post educating me about bats - so now I can say I've learned two things). There is this perpetuated myth about learning through comments - I think you learn what people on dpc like or don't like - that's it. You might learn how to take a more popular picture for dpc - but then that's on the front page and in the forums every day.
Your score tells you if people like it or not - comments are usually one of
1/ repeating the obvious
2/ repeating the obvious
or
3/ repeating the obvious
Once or twice is quite possibly enough ? |
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04/03/2004 02:03:50 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
And instead of declaring how "dull/ boring/ badly taken" a photo is, you could perhaps suggest a different perspective or crop, or returning when the light is better, or a different version of the subject.
To tell someone who doesn't know you (and your likes and values) that an image is "boring" is not constructive feedback -- it is an anonymous opinion and a waste of time for both of you, since there is no way for the photographer to use that information to take a better photo next time. |
Absolutely - so, as the pre-eminent purveyor of those types of shots, you are possibly best placed to answer. How many insightful, eye-opening comments that have changed your view and educated you on how to take a better, non-4 scoring picture have you had in comments on your pictures ? Can you point them out ? When did the comments get made ? Was it unique, or do you normally just get the same thought repeated, commenting on the most superficial feature of the shot ?
I made a post a few weeks ago saying I'd only ever learned one useful thing from comments here (and someone made a post educating me about bats - so now I can say I've learned two things). There is this perpetuated myth about learning through comments - I think you learn what people on dpc like or don't like - that's it. You might learn how to take a more popular picture for dpc - but then that's on the front page and in the forums every day.
Your score tells you if people like it or not - comments are usually one of
1/ repeating the obvious
2/ repeating the obvious
or
3/ repeating the obvious
Once or twice is quite possibly enough ? |
Gordon, this is clearly true for you--but you are an expert. I think maybe you have forgotten what it's like to be unsure of yourself as a photographer (if you ever were unsure!). Sometimes just finding out that a photo speaks to someone else and, as a bonus, why, is extremely encouraging. And I have certainly learned from more than one comment I've received here! I've also learned a lot from reading the comments others' photos receive. Trust me--comments are very helpful. :)
Message edited by author 2004-04-03 14:04:23. |
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04/03/2004 02:08:41 PM · #46 |
I think there needs to be a way we can strengthen the Critique Club.
I completely agree with the fact that most learning here is NOT neccassarily done through comments received. I know I have done most of my learning through several things that have nothing to do with comments I have received:
1. Forums- By far the way best way to improve, hands down. Just reading forum after forum will help better than anything here (at least for me). There are always questions being asked that involve improving photography, technique, equipment, etc... I have learned a lot with becoming more familiar with the forums. Plus, If I have a question to improve my photography through the forums, you find that people are a lot more willing because they are in "vote on the challenge mode" and are more than willing to give insightful comments.
2. Just browsing through the challenge history- I have learned to see what kind of shots do well and what kind of elements they have in their shots that made them do well or made the photograph look good. I learn by doing my own trials and error sessions trying to emulate a certain technique. I then leanr the techinique, add my own style, and if it doesn't work, well, there's that trial and error thing again.
3. Giving In-Depth critiques on other's shots- I learned that as time went on, that the comments I make help improve MY photography as well. This is exactly why I joined the Critique Club. I learn a LOT from giving those and some of my best learning experiences have been with those.
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04/03/2004 02:29:40 PM · #47 |
4. Looking through other photographers profiles- I think it's interesting to see how others have improved and what they did to change to make their photography better and try to apply the same to me as well.
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04/03/2004 02:30:45 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by cmangis:
Gordon, this is clearly true for you--but you are an expert. I think maybe you have forgotten what it's like to be unsure of yourself as a photographer (if you ever were unsure!). Sometimes just finding out that a photo speaks to someone else and, as a bonus, why, is extremely encouraging. And I have certainly learned from more than one comment I've received here! I've also learned a lot from reading the comments others' photos receive. Trust me--comments are very helpful. :) |
I'm not trying to say that as an expert, even if I thought I was anything more than a beginner, which I don't. I joined DPC about 2 months after I first picked up a camera. I appreciate all the feedback, comments on my images and love to hear what people think about them.
However, I don't believe I ever learned anything useful or insightful that significantly improved my photography by them - I learned what people around here like (or more likely - I learned they don't like soft focus, or blur, or shallow DoF or all the variety of things that any time you use them, you get a weeks worth of repeated comment pointing out the same thing). I did learn that the African heart-nosed bat can hear the footsteps of a beetle walking on sand from a distance of more than six feet, and for that I am truely thankful.
My point is that the vast majority of comments point out the obvious flaw in an image. They aren't as educational as some believe. I think books, photography clubs, the critique club etc are educational - lots of I like this or I don't like this are just the same as a score of 6 or a score of 3 in telling you if people liked it or not.
And yes, I know these flaws are only 'obvious' because I'm supposedly an expert - but the truth is, you don't need 20 people to tell you the same thing for the first person to be right. |
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04/03/2004 03:26:31 PM · #49 |
| To John Setzler, I apologize for calling you Jim. :-) Love your stuff! |
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04/03/2004 03:58:00 PM · #50 |
1. I agree with Matthew (goinskiing): There needs to be a way we can strengthen the Critique Club. I wish I had a suggestion. All I have is a testimonial: participating in the Critique Club has helped me improve both my photography and my ability to understand and express my feelings (and not just about photography). I invite everyone who would seriously like to improve their art to join and participate.
2. The only change I would suggest to accomodate the ever-growing number of entries in challenges would be to change the minimum votes from 20% to the smaller of 20% or 50 votes. That would still filter out people who aren't really serious about voting for a particular challenge, but not be so burdensome for people with little free time when challenges have more than 250 entries. Ideally, people would vote on the photos randomly presented to them rather than scanning for their favorite thumbnails and giving them high scores, but that's a different issue.
3. I disagree with not allowing voting on challenges you have entered. Indeed, I make a point of trying to vote on the challenges I have entered (and vote on others if I have time). I like to see how others have interpreted the challenge, especially those that choose a similar approach to mine (e.g., the ones featuring an orange bell pepper). And as long as I'm studying these photos, I might as well vote on them. I realize there is some concern that people's votes will be swayed by how well their own entry is doing (I personally try not to do this), but I don't think the effect is statistically significant. |
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