| Author | Thread |
|
|
03/17/2004 07:18:31 PM · #26 |
Personally, I like knowing who made comments on my photographs. I can then look at a commenters page and see their work. In addition, since I often get conflicting comments (good crop/poor crop), seeing the commenters work helps me to decide who's opinion is more valid. Also, when I get tore up my someone whose "average vote received" is 3.9 or "average vote cast" is 4.1, it is easier to swallow.
|
|
|
|
03/17/2004 07:22:53 PM · #27 |
| Good points Spydr, but nothing there that is any different if we wait until the voting is closed. |
|
|
|
03/17/2004 07:23:16 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by geewhy:
Originally posted by coolhar:
If there is something fundamental that has been missed by the voter, then the entry (including the image and the title) has failed to communicate to that voter. |
Not necessarily,
There have been occasions, when I have noticed things after the challenge is finished that I failed to notice when studying the image and voting...(example 2nd place, Design and engineering)that wasn`t the fault of the creator of the picture..it was my fault for not taking enough time..I would have welcomed a PM from the person.
My feeling on leaving it until after the challenge is that many people may not bother by that time... or that we become so swamped by PMs that we start ignoring some or all of them and the learning process (which is the really important thing here) suffers as a result. |
I really don't believe the learning process would be hurt by delaying PMing until after voting. There could be a small effect, however the best opportunity for learning comes when techniques are discussed in the open forums, soething that always must take place outside the challenges. The small damper on communication is certainly outweighed by the manitenance of anonymity.
With regard to "noticing things after the challenge", yes. No one can vote perfectly, we'll al miss omething occasionally. If yo missed it, however, it must not have been that major. And it all evens out in the end. that's why there is a distribution of votes for each shots (not everyone judges the same).
|
|
|
|
03/17/2004 11:24:51 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Since voting is supposed to be anonymous, why are comments not anonymous during the voting? ...
I feel just as strongly that after voting is over, the commentors' names should be revealed. This will discourage those who might leave rude or inappropriate comments if they remained completely anonymous. |
Ditto.
|
|
|
|
03/17/2004 11:34:34 PM · #30 |
I liked the original way too.. as muckpond says.
anonymous during voting, then reveal later.
|
|
|
|
03/18/2004 12:03:18 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by geewhy:
Originally posted by coolhar:
If there is something fundamental that has been missed by the voter, then the entry (including the image and the title) has failed to communicate to that voter. |
Not necessarily,
There have been occasions, when I have noticed things after the challenge is finished that I failed to notice when studying the image and voting...(example 2nd place, Design and engineering)that wasn`t the fault of the creator of the picture..it was my fault for not taking enough time..I would have welcomed a PM from the person.
My feeling on leaving it until after the challenge is that many people may not bother by that time... or that we become so swamped by PMs that we start ignoring some or all of them and the learning process (which is the really important thing here) suffers as a result. |
The image I produced did have comments that questioned the post process steps taken. I did PM a couple of folks that left the specific statement and made clear the fact I did very little to this photo, as a result they bumped the image up a point or two. not being able to make clear this truth I watched and wondered how much better I may have done. I will say though, regardless, the image that pulled down the blue ribbon, truly deserved that spot.
Leave the comment structure as is....IMHO:)
Richard
|
|
|
|
03/18/2004 08:50:12 AM · #32 |
| I stopped leaving many comments because of the hostile PMs I got during the voting begging to explain their photo. I wonder if those same PMs would arrive after it is too late to get me to change my vote? I don't think I am overly critical either. |
|
|
|
03/18/2004 09:08:08 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by spydr:
Personally, I like knowing who made comments on my photographs. I can then look at a commenters page and see their work. In addition, since I often get conflicting comments (good crop/poor crop), seeing the commenters work helps me to decide who's opinion is more valid. Also, when I get tore up my someone whose "average vote received" is 3.9 or "average vote cast" is 4.1, it is easier to swallow. |
I like looking at how much people comment then there scores. The people with the high scores don't give out as many comments as the average scorers, some do.
Some people have been here and entered 100 challenges and not won a ribbon or score very high. They just might not have entered the right photo at the right time or what ever reason. Looking at their portfolio they have some great stuff.
We shouldn't put a value on a comment by their scores or there camera, but the helpfulness.
Just my opinion, and not attacking you. |
|
|
|
03/18/2004 10:26:28 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by Firstrich1:
Originally posted by geewhy:
Originally posted by coolhar:
If there is something fundamental that has been missed by the voter, then the entry (including the image and the title) has failed to communicate to that voter. |
Not necessarily,
There have been occasions, when I have noticed things after the challenge is finished that I failed to notice when studying the image and voting...(example 2nd place, Design and engineering)that wasn`t the fault of the creator of the picture..it was my fault for not taking enough time..I would have welcomed a PM from the person.
My feeling on leaving it until after the challenge is that many people may not bother by that time... or that we become so swamped by PMs that we start ignoring some or all of them and the learning process (which is the really important thing here) suffers as a result. |
The image I produced did have comments that questioned the post process steps taken. I did PM a couple of folks that left the specific statement and made clear the fact I did very little to this photo, as a result they bumped the image up a point or two. not being able to make clear this truth I watched and wondered how much better I may have done. I will say though, regardless, the image that pulled down the blue ribbon, truly deserved that spot.
Leave the comment structure as is....IMHO:)
Richard |
This is exactly what should not happen; as much as we might desperately want to explain ourselves to the voters, we must not be influencing voters during the challenges. Any avenue for doing so should be closed; it compromises the integrity of the voting.
After voting closes is the time for discussion.
|
|
|
|
03/18/2004 10:28:38 AM · #35 |
Oh, forgot...
Another reason that I feel this should change is that when I see a comment, I would rather assess the comment's value without the "baggage" of knowing who the commentor is. I feel that this should help me look at comments with a more unbiased eye.
|
|
|
|
03/18/2004 10:51:46 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Oh, forgot...
Another reason that I feel this should change is that when I see a comment, I would rather assess the comment's value without the "baggage" of knowing who the commentor is. I feel that this should help me look at comments with a more unbiased eye. |
Are we assuming the ability of PMing a commentor without knowing who they are?
Not being able to reply to comments would be a mistake, in my opinion, although it doesn't matter if their identity remains open or not. |
|
|
|
03/18/2004 11:00:00 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
This is exactly what should not happen; as much as we might desperately want to explain ourselves to the voters, we must not be influencing voters during the challenges. Any avenue for doing so should be closed; it compromises the integrity of the voting.
After voting closes is the time for discussion. |
I don`t disagree with a lot of what you are saying here and understand the points you are making.. and why.
I just feel that the system, as is,doesn`t have much effect in influencing voters to increase their score,(may irritate as many as it influences to receive a pm telling them they haven`t got things right etc).
Can`t say I`d be too worried if it did change but I do feel discussing things at the end of the challenge would have the problems I mentioned in my previous mail of people either not bothering or everyone getting inundated with PMs..which I think would definitely impact on the learning process. |
|
|
|
03/18/2004 02:06:09 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
This is exactly what should not happen; as much as we might desperately want to explain ourselves to the voters, we must not be influencing voters during the challenges. Any avenue for doing so should be closed; it compromises the integrity of the voting.
After voting closes is the time for discussion. |
I don't know that I disagree, but I think the impact is so minimal that it has no impact. What's the average number of votes an image gets 150-200? A person does good if they get a ratio of 1/10 comments per vote. Out of that portion how many are negative, and of that how many could be swayed to change their vote? We might be talking about a whole 0.02 points here. That might have an impact if the image was in the top 3 but I doubt that's the images we're discussing.
Weigh that with an recent contest where an SC member posts a picture in the forums in which s/he states the picture was taken the same day/time of the picture s/he submitted for the current challenge. There was no mistaking the artist when one viewed and voted in the challenge; the subject matter was the same. That image won a blue ribbon.
I seriously doubt even that conduct had any substantial impact, the image was well deserving of a blue ribbon.
In the Portrait challenge I sent 8 PM's in regards to comments I received on the image I had submitted. I wish I had not now, but I never thought that my PM's would be interpreted as trying to sway the vote. Considering 150 votes averaging 3.9, the impact of 8 votes has no influence. Well, I might be up for a brown ribbon.. have to wait and see.
If the site should choose to change the way commenting works I would like to suggest the implementation of an "Ignore comments from person x" option. I can't think of anytime that I would have used it but it's obvious that others could. Seems that some members forget the main purpose in leaving a comment is to give the artist some feedback in a manner that allows them to improve their skill. I feel that if the artist feels that someone is tagging comments that are not constructive they should have the ability to prevent that person from commenting further. |
|
|
|
03/18/2004 04:02:54 PM · #39 |
| I can't believe that you would say you have sent 8 PMs prior to the close of voting and still think that it will have no influence. How would it hurt your communication with those 8 commentters if you had to wait a few days until voting was closed? That way we would all be certain that it would have no influence and no one would be able to question your motives. The more I learn about this activity from this thread, the more I think it should be banned until the close of voting. It seems to happen more often than we thought. And seems to be on the increase. |
|
|
|
03/18/2004 04:14:51 PM · #40 |
I'd personally prefer to allow the discussion to happen within the comments on the image, while voting is happening.
Some of the more interesting exchanges on my images have happened in PMs that could be better collected in the threads with the image.
Have the 'PM's be sent to the commentor, and also stored in the comments field for the image.
Reduces the likelyhood of ranty, badgering responses, trying to get you to change your vote (because it will _all_ be public at the end of voting) doesn't mean you have to wait until voting is over (when mostly discussion dies, as everyone has moved on) and keeps a public record for future comments to see perhaps in more detail what you thought or why you did things.
I continually get posts from users at betterphoto.com either thanking me for the detailed explainations on shots I put there, or asking similar questions that other commentors have sent me private messages about.
If this really is an educational site, I'm all for putting this all out in the open by default. Methods for private messaging should also be available, but perhaps not for comment responses.
|
|
|
|
03/18/2004 04:22:52 PM · #41 |
So how many people have PMs that have
Been unhelpful and not cleared things up
and at the same time
encouraged them to positively change the vote they placed on an image ?
Or, how many people have had PMs, seen who took the picture and changed the score ?
Or is this just one of those things that 'other people' do and we have to protect everyone from ?
|
|
|
|
03/18/2004 04:30:42 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I can't believe that you would say you have sent 8 PMs prior to the close of voting and still think that it will have no influence. How would it hurt your communication with those 8 commentters if you had to wait a few days until voting was closed? That way we would all be certain that it would have no influence and no one would be able to question your motives. The more I learn about this activity from this thread, the more I think it should be banned until the close of voting. It seems to happen more often than we thought. And seems to be on the increase. |
Sorry if I might have been confusing Harvey. I also said that I wish I had not done, with regards to how others feel about it.
What I was saying about not having an influece is 150 votes, 3.9 avg, 8 PM's. How much if any would you expect that avg to improve and what impact does that have on the overall challenge.
In summary I do agree PM's be left until the end of the challenge. |
|
|
|
03/18/2004 04:48:48 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
So how many people have PMs that have
Been unhelpful and not cleared things up
and at the same time
encouraged them to positively change the vote they placed on an image ?
Or, how many people have had PMs, seen who took the picture and changed the score ?
Or is this just one of those things that 'other people' do and we have to protect everyone from ? |
I rec'd one PM during a challenge that was basically a thank you note for a comment I had made. Didn't ask nor persuade me to change my vote. |
|
|
|
03/18/2004 05:04:48 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
I rec'd one PM during a challenge that was basically a thank you note for a comment I had made. Didn't ask nor persuade me to change my vote. |
That's a good use of the PM's...to encourage those who leave comments. However, this can still be done after a challenge is over.
The comment I received that prompted this thread wasn't discouraging by any means. The person had obviously recieved a lot of the same comment and couldn't understand how no one could see what she saw. Her initial PM prompted me to go back and have a second look, which led me to see the picture in a different way and change my vote. (After which I read her explanation in a follow up PM.)
All in all, the situation turned out positive. I was voting with a more literal interpretation, she was entering a more artistic expression of the challenge. I changed my vote because I am good hearted that way. If I may toot my own horn here. ;) But still, I believe voting on these challenges should not be subject to lobbying efforts (unlike my belief that voting in Washington should be subject to lobbying efforts). So send me cash instead of PM's...that's my point!
(I think I just talked myself out of being against during challenge PM'ing!) |
|
|
|
03/18/2004 05:53:20 PM · #45 |
Just so you all know, I was in no way looking for votes to be changed on my pic.
My decision to PM the voters was a knee jerk reaction of course.
It was to say, take another look before you jump to conclusions on pics that dont meet your preconceived idea of a challenge description.
But if at least one of those voters is now looking at pics in a different way, then I have succeeded slightly.
Message edited by author 2004-03-18 17:56:20. |
|
|
|
03/18/2004 06:10:55 PM · #46 |
let's just ask...how many people have actually changed a score for the better after recieving a PM? and how many points did you increase it? huh? I have never done it.
the only thing that should be of question is anonymity. someone could go through and put "hey, its my picture...vote it better, since you are my friend." Highly doubtful, but possible because the name is attached.
actually, people could just start forum threads to plea there cases with their picture, right? enough people could read it before it is stricken down by the mighty hands of the SC. (C;
|
|
|
|
03/18/2004 06:41:55 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
let's just ask...how many people have actually changed a score for the better after recieving a PM? and how many points did you increase it? huh? I have never done it. |
On one occassion, I left a comment saying that I couldn't see the connection to the theme, got a PM pointing out an extremetly obvious connection, returned to the entry and changed the 2 to a 7.
|
|
|
|
03/18/2004 06:54:42 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I'd personally prefer to allow the discussion to happen within the comments on the image, while voting is happening.
Some of the more interesting exchanges on my images have happened in PMs that could be better collected in the threads with the image.
Have the 'PM's be sent to the commentor, and also stored in the comments field for the image.
Reduces the likelyhood of ranty, badgering responses, trying to get you to change your vote (because it will _all_ be public at the end of voting) doesn't mean you have to wait until voting is over (when mostly discussion dies, as everyone has moved on) and keeps a public record for future comments to see perhaps in more detail what you thought or why you did things. |
EXCELLENT IDEA!
|
|
|
|
03/18/2004 07:06:19 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Koriyama:
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
let's just ask...how many people have actually changed a score for the better after recieving a PM? and how many points did you increase it? huh? I have never done it. |
On one occassion, I left a comment saying that I couldn't see the connection to the theme, got a PM pointing out an extremetly obvious connection, returned to the entry and changed the 2 to a 7. |
I am with Koriyama on this, but, I think I change my vote more than he does.
If I don't understand an image's relation to the challenge, I generally start the score at 1 and add points if the image is well done ("generally" because in the last challenge, I gave a 10 on what I thought was the best image in the competition but had nothing to do with the challenge.) I also leave a simple comment saying that I don't see the connection and move on.
Since I don't really enjoy giving low scores to anybody's image, if I get a PM explaining the connection, and it is AT ALL connected to the challege, I change my vote accordingly. This methodology is probably against the letter of the law here, but hopefully, it falls within the spirit of the game.
So, I am supportive of leaving the commenting as is, and if I get a few unhappy PMs, then so be it.
Best,
Bill
|
|
|
|
03/18/2004 09:24:14 PM · #50 |
two thoughts...
Originally posted by kirbic:
Oh, forgot...
Another reason that I feel this should change is that when I see a comment, I would rather assess the comment's value without the "baggage" of knowing who the commentor is. I feel that this should help me look at comments with a more unbiased eye. |
The 'baggage' as you call it is important - if a comment is from a perennial blue ribbon winner vs. a never entered or perennial last placer then the value of the comment HAS to be different, and that is important baggage.
How about this idea - NO comments are visible to anyone until the voting ends? No chance of swaying the voting, you still get feedback and know who it is from and can respond.
chris
|
|
