US Health Reform - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

04/01/2010 11:13:40 AM · #352

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Why should it be a right to be able to get kidney and heart transplants and such?? I'd like to know the rationale.

Ah, so you think people don't have a right to life. Got it. I'll make up the placard for your next anti-abortion rally.

VitaminB

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED

04/01/2010 05:04:06 PM · #353

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Indeed why do so many feel that health-care coverage is a right. Why?? regardless of whether you have the greatest health-care coverage in the world or none at all we are ALL most certainly going to die regardless. Why should it be a right to be able to get kidney and heart transplants and such?? I'd like to know the rationale.

Your absolutely right... everyone is going to die regardless. Everyone is going to get sick. Everyone will eventually have to take care of a sick loved one.

You have the right to not be bankrupted by it. You have the right to not be at the whim of a for profit company whose bottom line is a greater priority that your health. You have the right to advanced treatments for disease and sickness, without having to give up your home.

In Canada, we have health care that is more universal than the bill passed in the USA. We do not have any work force reduction (our unemployment is currently lower than that of the US), we are not communist, our corporations are not bankrupt (in fact, some of them are expanding vigorously south of the border).

Give it a few years... you will find that you might actually like having health care. Its great not having to worry about health care costs (BTW... I am not a freeloader... I have been paying taxes, and have been gainfully employed since I was 15).

I am not even American, but can say that I was really happy for our neighbors to the south when the bill was passed. Knowing what Canadians get by way of health care benefits, I felt it was something that all Americans deserved as well. A huge congratulations to all of you... even if you didnt like the bill.

04/01/2010 06:30:18 PM · #354

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I personally would rather die without health-insurance than to see this great country turn into a place where I cannot make my own decisions about what I want to do with my money.

All together now...I wanna talk about me and only me,

Originally posted by dponlyme:

The United States I grew up in valued hard work and perseverance. It did not reward sloth and inability.

You truly are a self-centered navel gazing sort of fellow aren't you. Exactly how do you figure that all those individuals requiring health care are a collective of sloths... your mindless bantering truly boggles the mind.

I would hate to be the victim of an accident in a situation where the only source of help was people who think like you do... Oh wait, I have health care...I guess I don't need you after all.

Do have a nice day and try not to hurt yourself.

Ray

Message edited by author 2010-04-01 23:52:12.

04/01/2010 06:37:15 PM · #355

I just got a phone survey for a Republican senate candidate, and one of the questions regarded whether my vote would change knowing that her opponent voted for the recently passed "government takeover and public option." It changed any remote chance of my voting for her to zero for being either poorly informed on a critically important issue or dishonest.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

04/01/2010 06:45:31 PM · #356

Originally posted by scalvert:

Judging by some of the comments and opinions expressed in the media, I would vote for "Poorly informed". It truly is scary how some people will believe outright lies.

Ray

escapetooz

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

04/01/2010 07:48:31 PM · #357

It truly makes me so sad how misinformed some people are about our nations underprivileged. Indeed, all underprivileged. Many of them are the hardest working people in our country, working multiple jobs to stay afloat. They live in poor neighborhoods, meaning poor funding, meaning their kids go to worse school with worse teachers. Make little connections with those that can help them get ahead. Surely don't have the money to get any private tutoring, oh yea, and the parents again, are working multiple jobs and so have little time to provide much support for them and their schooling. If they don't make the grades for scholarships for college, good luck paying for it or getting approved for loans. It's a really hard cycle to get out of. Not saying no one gets out, but they are the exception, not the rule.

And then you have people say they are lazy and just not helping themselves. As if there is a big pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and they just are too lazy to pick up a shovel and dig in. Well that's just easy isn't it? If it's all their fault, we don't have to worry about fixing anything. They can just get off their lazy butts and do it all huh? Not our problem.

Ironically many of the people that have this view are Christians. Love the poor, that's what Jesus did. Not judge and berate and throw out random "sins" in accusation.

Disturbing that people actually have this narrow, lala land world view. The reality gets even more dismal as you start looking into why the 3rd world is so poor (hint: its to give us all the stuff we consume and throw away with little care and little profit to them).

cynthiann

Nikon D810

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

04/01/2010 08:08:36 PM · #358

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Thank you for that Monica. Several people very close to me have, in the past year, expressed how strongly they feel about not wanting to have any part of "fixing" the underprivileged problems. They don't have a right to health care 'cause they don't try... blah, blah, blah. Why ignore the majority of working underprivileged just to teach the very small minority a lesson of sorts? They are misinformed and, almost as bad, they are under-informed. It just breaks my heart to no end because these are people I love who are otherwise the most intelligent, loving people I know.

Message edited by author 2010-04-01 20:09:18.

Niten

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

04/01/2010 09:37:27 PM · #359

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Bottom line here is that this is a crappy bill that was shoved through against the will of the people. It will not result in the utopia where everyone will have access to health-care. More likely the opposite as employers will be forced to find ways to recoup the extra costs associated with this bill.. can you say 'work force reduction'. I can. I see it everyday under the current economy and heaping more expenses and uncertainty on employers will not make it conducive to hiring people. More people out of work equals more government handouts. The seemingly never ending extensions of unemployment benefits is nothing more than welfare anymore. At some point this nation will have to pay the piper. What good will it even do to have access to health-care if you don't have a job and can't afford to live. Oh I've got it... let's mandate that all employers have to hire people whether it makes good business sense or not. Then when all of the corporations are bankrupt the government can come in and take control like they have already done with the car companies (excluding Ford). It makes sense.. if the government can run health-care more efficiently than the private sector then they can run all industries more efficiently without all that profit motive at work... maybe then we can have social justice for all the unfortunate people who just don't have the will to provide for themselves.

Doesn't anyone realize that what is being done has little to do with health-care and everything to do with power. The dems are trying to create an underclass of people who are completely dependent on the government and who will be forced to vote for them in order to keep getting the handouts. I personally would rather die without health-insurance than to see this great country turn into a place where I cannot make my own decisions about what I want to do with my money. I would rather suffer an agonizing death because I can't afford to see a doctor than have my country and it's constitution gutted and 'Changed' such that it is considered unjustified that someone has more money than me. The United States I grew up in valued hard work and perseverance. It did not reward sloth and inability.

Indeed why do so many feel that health-care coverage is a right. Why?? regardless of whether you have the greatest health-care coverage in the world or none at all we are ALL most certainly going to die regardless. Why should it be a right to be able to get kidney and heart transplants and such?? I'd like to know the rationale.

Check his bio and it all makes sense. Biography: I love fiction writing

04/01/2010 11:59:51 PM · #360

Originally posted by escapetooz:

You know some of what you say seems so good .... yet it doesn't describe the United States I want to live in. I would Love to have a utopia where everyone had access to quality health care. I would love it if all those who have cancer or will get it would be cured due to this access. I personally would love it if everyone who had amassed wealth through hard work and perseverance would pay for the rest of us to have it. Forcing them to do this is not the way to go about solving the problem of affordability. It's certainly not the way to create jobs. It is not the Job of government to make sure I am healthy. It is my job.

04/02/2010 12:06:02 AM · #361

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
Why should it be a right to be able to get kidney and heart transplants and such?? I'd like to know the rationale.

Ah, so you think people don't have a right to life. Got it. I'll make up the placard for your next anti-abortion rally.

they certainly should have a right not to be murdered... you however feel that if not murdered prior to birth then that person has a right to health-care. How perverse. The baby can't prevent it's own murder by taking a handout from the taxpayers.. no.. the baby will now be being killed with a handout from the taxpayers. I guess that's social justice in your eyes.

04/02/2010 12:15:10 AM · #362

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I personally would love it if everyone who had amassed wealth through hard work and perseverance would pay for the rest of us to have it.

I wouldn't. Then again, I also wouldn't like a system where roads, schools, libraries, water, electricity, sewers, defense, and fire departments were private and only available to other hard workers if the wealthy felt charitable. Some required contributions are necessary for a civilization to thrive.

04/02/2010 12:21:00 AM · #363

Originally posted by VitaminB:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
Indeed why do so many feel that health-care coverage is a right. Why?? regardless of whether you have the greatest health-care coverage in the world or none at all we are ALL most certainly going to die regardless. Why should it be a right to be able to get kidney and heart transplants and such?? I'd like to know the rationale.

Your absolutely right... everyone is going to die regardless. Everyone is going to get sick. Everyone will eventually have to take care of a sick loved one.

You have the right to not be bankrupted by it. You have the right to not be at the whim of a for profit company whose bottom line is a greater priority that your health. You have the right to advanced treatments for disease and sickness, without having to give up your home.

In Canada, we have health care that is more universal than the bill passed in the USA. We do not have any work force reduction (our unemployment is currently lower than that of the US), we are not communist, our corporations are not bankrupt (in fact, some of them are expanding vigorously south of the border).

Give it a few years... you will find that you might actually like having health care. Its great not having to worry about health care costs (BTW... I am not a freeloader... I have been paying taxes, and have been gainfully employed since I was 15).

I am not even American, but can say that I was really happy for our neighbors to the south when the bill was passed. Knowing what Canadians get by way of health care benefits, I felt it was something that all Americans deserved as well. A huge congratulations to all of you... even if you didnt like the bill.

Honestly I am glad that you have what you want. I would rather work to earn what I get and then go purchase for myself what I want and need. I like to be in control of my own life without government intervention. This biggest problem isn't even this health-care bill... it is the priority that this president has for transforming the United States into his image of fairness and social justice. I do not share his values. One gets the feeling that he doesn't care if people have jobs or not. If he truly had made this his concern he would not have shoved this thing through against the obvious will of the majority of the people and creating uncertainty for businesses. Uncertainty does not promote job growth. This health-care bill creates a huge amount of uncertainty. That shows me that our president cares more about himself and his own goals and agenda than he does about the unemployed. Let's face it. Most will see scant few benefits from this for many years to come but the unemployed are suffering now. Maybe they can all become IRS agents...

04/02/2010 12:25:38 AM · #364

Originally posted by dponlyme:

How perverse.

A newborn is no better equipped to pay for its own healthcare. I don't understand how you can reconcile a life-at-any-cost attitude for a fetus and then immediately switch to a "you're on your own" stance after birth. It's like sparing no expense to pull as many earthquake survivors as possible from the rubble and then abandoning them to fend for themselves. Now that's perverse.

Message edited by author 2010-04-02 00:26:33.

04/02/2010 12:27:09 AM · #365

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
I personally would love it if everyone who had amassed wealth through hard work and perseverance would pay for the rest of us to have it.

I wouldn't. Then again, I also wouldn't like a system where roads, schools, libraries, water, electricity, sewers, defense, and fire departments were private and only available to other hard workers if the wealthy felt charitable. Some required contributions are necessary for a civilization to thrive.

I'd say this civilization has thrived just fine without government mandated health-care. Believe it or not I actually pay for my the electricity and water I use. I guess everyone should have a right to electricity and water service in your utopia?

Louis

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

04/02/2010 12:32:34 AM · #366

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
Why should it be a right to be able to get kidney and heart transplants and such?? I'd like to know the rationale.

Ah, so you think people don't have a right to life. Got it. I'll make up the placard for your next anti-abortion rally.

they certainly should have a right not to be murdered... you however feel that if not murdered prior to birth then that person has a right to health-care. How perverse. The baby can't prevent it's own murder by taking a handout from the taxpayers.. no.. the baby will now be being killed with a handout from the taxpayers. I guess that's social justice in your eyes.

As I've learned from Harris recently, some people can pretend to be part of the conversation, but there's no need for them to be shown a seat.

04/02/2010 12:39:41 AM · #367

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
How perverse.

A newborn is no better equipped to pay for its own healthcare. I don't understand how you can reconcile a life-at-any-cost attitude for a fetus and then immediately switch to a "you're on your own" stance after birth. It's like sparing no expense to pull as many earthquake survivors as possible from the rubble and then abandoning them to fend for themselves. Now that's perverse.

So are you saying that it is better to murder the unborn if there is not government mandated and tax-payer subsidized health-care. Well, I guess you think it is okay to murder the unborn regardless, but even if the child lives a shortened life span due to a lack of quality health-care I still think it is a life worth living. The state should step in and assist with a child that does not have a family to protect and provide for them but when we become adults we have to take responsibility for ourselves. It's just that simple.

04/02/2010 12:39:59 AM · #368

Originally posted by dponlyme:

[
I'd say this civilization has thrived just fine without government mandated health-care. Believe it or not I actually pay for my the electricity and water I use. I guess everyone should have a right to electricity and water service in your utopia?

Good grief,

Based on such flawed and myopic analogy it could be argued that:

- people without children could opt out of paying school taxes;
- individuals without vehicles need not pay taxes for roads;
- public transportation should be paid for entirely by those who use it;
- emergency services would be doled out to only those who can afford it;
- people that find wars repulsive could divert their taxes to other venues;

...and the list goes on.

You make mention of the term "Civilization" and I have reservations as to whether you truly have an appreciation of it's meaning.

Ray

Message edited by author 2010-04-02 00:42:23.

Louis

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

04/02/2010 12:41:15 AM · #369

Or even live in one.

04/02/2010 12:46:56 AM · #370

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
Why should it be a right to be able to get kidney and heart transplants and such?? I'd like to know the rationale.

Ah, so you think people don't have a right to life. Got it. I'll make up the placard for your next anti-abortion rally.

they certainly should have a right not to be murdered... you however feel that if not murdered prior to birth then that person has a right to health-care. How perverse. The baby can't prevent it's own murder by taking a handout from the taxpayers.. no.. the baby will now be being killed with a handout from the taxpayers. I guess that's social justice in your eyes.

As I've learned from Harris recently, some people can pretend to be part of the conversation, but there's no need for them to be shown a seat.

I suppose that is meant as a slight. that's fine. I didn't expect to be greeted here with agreement. honestly it helps me to crystallize into words what I truly feel in my gut. It is more an exercise in understanding myself and my own thoughts and values. So in the final analysis you are right. This conversation isn't really about seeing it from your or anyone's point of view. It's more about making sure that all can see that there other opinions... and these are mine.

04/02/2010 12:54:04 AM · #371

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
[
I'd say this civilization has thrived just fine without government mandated health-care. Believe it or not I actually pay for my the electricity and water I use. I guess everyone should have a right to electricity and water service in your utopia?

Good grief,

Based on such flawed and myopic analogy it could be argued that:

- people without children could opt out of paying school taxes;
- individuals without vehicles need not pay taxes for roads;
- public transportation should be paid for entirely by those who use it;
- emergency services would be doled out to only those who can afford it;
- people that find wars repulsive could divert their taxes to other venues;

...and the list goes on.

You make mention of the term "Civilization" and I have reservations as to whether you truly have an appreciation of it's meaning.

Ray

Honestly Ray... stop trying to boil everything down to strict logic and argument construction... it's tedious. I could say by your way of thinking the government should provide toilet paper for everyone because everyone should have a right to wipe their ass with dignity regardless of their ability to buy the toilet paper. those that can afford the toilet paper would have to pay a tax so that the have nots can stop using a corncob ( very uncivilized ).

04/02/2010 12:54:29 AM · #372

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I'd say this civilization has thrived just fine without government mandated health-care.

I don't see Republicans trying to eliminate medicare or medicaid, and they have their own government healthcare through a policy that they opted to include abortions until this past November. Duh.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Believe it or not I actually pay for my the electricity and water I use.

Electricity is only available to much of Kentucky courtesy of the Rural Electrification Administrationâ�� the very sort public works agency you profess to hate. Duh again.

04/02/2010 12:59:10 AM · #373

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
[
I'd say this civilization has thrived just fine without government mandated health-care. Believe it or not I actually pay for my the electricity and water I use. I guess everyone should have a right to electricity and water service in your utopia?

Good grief,

Based on such flawed and myopic analogy it could be argued that:

- people without children could opt out of paying school taxes;
- individuals without vehicles need not pay taxes for roads;
- public transportation should be paid for entirely by those who use it;
- emergency services would be doled out to only those who can afford it;
- people that find wars repulsive could divert their taxes to other venues;

...and the list goes on.

You make mention of the term "Civilization" and I have reservations as to whether you truly have an appreciation of it's meaning.

Ray

Honestly Ray... stop trying to boil everything down to strict logic and argument construction... it's tedious. I could say by your way of thinking the government should provide toilet paper for everyone because everyone should have a right to wipe their ass with dignity regardless of their ability to buy the toilet paper. those that can afford the toilet paper would have to pay a tax so that the have nots can stop using a corncob ( very uncivilized ).

Sorry folks, I will need to take a brief sabbatical...it is really too difficult for me to type what with all these tears streaming down my face. Thank you DP for this moment of hilarity...I truly needed that. :O)

Ray

04/02/2010 12:59:34 AM · #374

Originally posted by dponlyme:

So are you saying that it is better...

I'm saying you can't claim to value life in the very same breath that you demand everyone to fend for themselves or die. It's profoundly hypocritical.