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01/05/2010 05:07:11 PM · #3776 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Aside - I can never figure it out... is one yankod (yankoed?) when someone says something within a couple of seconds of someone else saying the same thing, or when someone says something, gets ignored, someone else says the same thing, and everyone falls all over it? DPC culture has always eluded me... :( |
The second one, originally, but it's kind of morphed into the first one now.
Message edited by author 2010-01-05 17:07:31. |
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01/05/2010 05:08:21 PM · #3777 |
Ya, what K10 said. What do those "we reserve the right to refuse service..." signs mean? Nothing? Do they not exist in New Mexico? I don't quite get it.
Let's keep refreshing ourselves that this is New Mexico law. DPC Prints, unless located in New Mexico, could very likely legally refuse to sell a print to someone based on their sexual orientation. Not commenting on the morality of such an action, but only the legality. |
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01/05/2010 05:10:51 PM · #3778 |
Originally posted by yanko:
She's free to create whatever art she wants. This ruling doesn't change that. However, if she wants to sell this art then it becomes a commodity, a product for sale. It's no different had DPCPrints refused a print order from someone based on sexual orientation. |
It is different because when you order prints through DPCPrints, those photographs have already been created, whereas in Elane's case, she was refusing to create the photographs in the first place. What would happen if someone tried to order a photograph through DPCPrints that didn't exist?
Just to clarify, again... I'm not opposed to the courts ruling on this. I'm just saying that I don't believe the situation is as clear-cut as many people think it is.
Message edited by author 2010-01-05 17:12:03. |
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01/05/2010 05:11:18 PM · #3779 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Aside - I can never figure it out... is one yankod (yankoed?) when someone says something within a couple of seconds of someone else saying the same thing, or when someone says something, gets ignored, someone else says the same thing, and everyone falls all over it? DPC culture has always eluded me... :( |
I think it's the latter but either way I should be exempt.
Message edited by author 2010-01-05 17:11:28. |
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01/05/2010 05:13:37 PM · #3780 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ya, what K10 said. What do those "we reserve the right to refuse service..." signs mean? Nothing? Do they not exist in New Mexico? I don't quite get it.
Let's keep refreshing ourselves that this is New Mexico law. DPC Prints, unless located in New Mexico, could very likely legally refuse to sell a print to someone based on their sexual orientation. Not commenting on the morality of such an action, but only the legality. |
I don't know too many web sites that sells stuff which asks for your sexual orientation. Do you? Would you even shop there if asked prior to completing your order?
Note to self: Start building shopping cart applications with the hardcoded option that refuses orders from theists. :P
Message edited by author 2010-01-05 17:15:06. |
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01/05/2010 05:16:48 PM · #3781 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
What would happen if someone tried to order a photograph through DPCPrints that didn't exist? |
You mean if they had an option for custom orders? I'm guessing they would fullfill those requests just the same. |
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01/05/2010 05:21:20 PM · #3782 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
What would happen if someone tried to order a photograph through DPCPrints that didn't exist? |
You mean if they had an option for custom orders? I'm guessing they would fullfill those requests just the same. |
Here's an opinion question for you.
If DPCPrints had an option for custom orders, should DPC photographers be required to fulfill every single order, or should the DPC photographers be allowed the freedom to choose which photographs they want to produce?
Message edited by author 2010-01-05 17:24:12. |
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01/05/2010 05:28:06 PM · #3783 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ya, what K10 said. What do those "we reserve the right to refuse service..." signs mean? Nothing? Do they not exist in New Mexico? I don't quite get it.
Let's keep refreshing ourselves that this is New Mexico law. DPC Prints, unless located in New Mexico, could very likely legally refuse to sell a print to someone based on their sexual orientation. Not commenting on the morality of such an action, but only the legality. |
I don't know too many web sites that sells stuff which asks for your sexual orientation. Do you? Would you even shop there if asked prior to completing your order?
Note to self: Start building shopping cart applications with the hardcoded option that refuses orders from theists. :P |
I only mentioned it because you brought it up.
Originally posted by yanko:
She's free to create whatever art she wants. This ruling doesn't change that. However, if she wants to sell this art then it becomes a commodity, a product for sale. It's no different had DPCPrints refused a print order from someone based on sexual orientation. |
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01/05/2010 05:58:42 PM · #3784 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ya, what K10 said. What do those "we reserve the right to refuse service..." signs mean? Nothing? Do they not exist in New Mexico? I don't quite get it.
Let's keep refreshing ourselves that this is New Mexico law. DPC Prints, unless located in New Mexico, could very likely legally refuse to sell a print to someone based on their sexual orientation. Not commenting on the morality of such an action, but only the legality. |
I don't know too many web sites that sells stuff which asks for your sexual orientation. Do you? Would you even shop there if asked prior to completing your order?
Note to self: Start building shopping cart applications with the hardcoded option that refuses orders from theists. :P |
I only mentioned it because you brought it up.
Originally posted by yanko:
She's free to create whatever art she wants. This ruling doesn't change that. However, if she wants to sell this art then it becomes a commodity, a product for sale. It's no different had DPCPrints refused a print order from someone based on sexual orientation. |
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Ok but lets also refresh ourselves that New Mexico isn't the only state with this kind of law. |
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01/05/2010 06:07:13 PM · #3785 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
What would happen if someone tried to order a photograph through DPCPrints that didn't exist? |
You mean if they had an option for custom orders? I'm guessing they would fullfill those requests just the same. |
Here's an opinion question for you.
If DPCPrints had an option for custom orders, should DPC photographers be required to fulfill every single order, or should the DPC photographers be allowed the freedom to choose which photographs they want to produce? |
If we conceive a situation so absurd can johnnyphoto make his point?
Message edited by author 2010-01-05 18:08:06. |
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01/05/2010 06:16:58 PM · #3786 |
Sometimes, its fun to come into this thread and read the top thread just to see to where it has gotten. This is one of those times.
hehehe.
back to your regularly scheduled...well, rant... |
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01/05/2010 06:26:59 PM · #3787 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
What would happen if someone tried to order a photograph through DPCPrints that didn't exist? |
You mean if they had an option for custom orders? I'm guessing they would fullfill those requests just the same. |
Here's an opinion question for you.
If DPCPrints had an option for custom orders, should DPC photographers be required to fulfill every single order, or should the DPC photographers be allowed the freedom to choose which photographs they want to produce? |
If they sign up to do them then yes they should fullfill their orders. Somehow I doubt Langdon would give you the checkbox option to automatically refuse orders from gays, blacks, women, asians, or other.
Originally posted by scarbrd:
If we conceive a situation so absurd can johnnyphoto make his point? |
I thought we reached absurity the moment wedding photography and art was used in the same sentence. Oh wait, did I just say that?
Message edited by author 2010-01-05 18:29:47. |
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01/05/2010 06:43:08 PM · #3788 |
| What if a straight couple came in and for some reason she did not want to shoot their wedding? Could she legally refuse? |
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01/05/2010 06:48:27 PM · #3789 |
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01/05/2010 07:08:23 PM · #3790 |
Thank you Louis. Everyone should read this. |
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01/05/2010 07:37:23 PM · #3791 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
What if a straight couple came in and for some reason she did not want to shoot their wedding? Could she legally refuse? |
There are plenty of reasons she could legally refuse to shoot the ceremony. Her mistake was in being honest. That's what we've come to :-(
R. |
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01/05/2010 07:53:59 PM · #3792 |
Just a couple of quotes from the other side of the coin,,,,
Cal O, Catonsville,MD January 4th, 2010 1:18 pm.........In what way are Uganda's laws "homophobic?" They are an attempt (whatever else may be said about them) to regulate and punish behavior seen as immoral and corrupting to society. Why is it necessary to characterize them as the result of a phobia, or irrational fear? To properly do so would require a clinical diagnosis of all of those supporting the law as having a deviant psychological disorder. Do you call anti-drug or anti-child pornography laws "pharmaphobic" or "pederastiphobic?" The desire to prohibit and punish behavior seen as immoral and destructive does not automatically imply an irrational fear of or a pathological aversion to the behavior in question.
Dan, Philadelphia,PA January 4th, 2010 12:20 pm In comparison to its African neighbors, is Uganda really exceptional in this regard? A quick perusal of Wikipedia resources suggests that homosexuality is illegal with stiff penalties (jail for > 1 year or death penalty) in Algeria, Libya, Morocco, Sudan, Tunisia, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Mauritania, Nigeria, Cameroon, Burundi, Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya, Malawi, Mauritius, Somalia, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe Zimbabwe, and Botswana. In Mauritania, Nigeria, Sudan, and Somalia the penalty is death or life imprisonment. In fact, only South Africa recognizes same-sex couples in any legal regard, and most of the African countries not mentioned above have laws that make homosexuality illegal with lesser penalties. Are US evangelicals to blame for the laws in all of those other countries too? Didn't Uganda already have a life imprisonment penalty for homosexuality before said conference took place? American liberals want to blame American conservatives for the attitudes of the vast majority of the world against the public practice of homosexual behaviors rather than face the fact that the values held by American liberals put them squarely among a very small minority.......
Message edited by author 2010-01-05 19:55:19. |
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01/05/2010 08:01:27 PM · #3793 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Having said that, however, doesn't the service industry have some kind of blanket exemption. You know, those "The Right to Refuse Service To Anyone at Anytime" signs you see all over the place? Couldn't Elane have evoked something of that nature? Was her mistake in naming the specific refusal instead of just giving a general one? |
I think that's the case.
There were plenty of times that I refused/turned away customers when I had my British car shop simply because they didn't have British cars.
When I opened my shop, I worked on anything 'til I got the business rolling, then basically weeded out the stuff I didn't want to work on under the premise that I wasn't equppied to work on anything but British cars.
Truth be told, when I was doing general service, I learned a lot about people who basically hate and abuse people in the automotive service industry. (The flip side it that there are WAY too many crooked mechanics out there....) I got rid of customers who I didn't want by changing my scope to British only. I still kept quite a few of the good people that supported me and helped me get going when I needed them.
I was a safety inspection station, with a sign out front, by law I was not allowed to refuse anyone an appointment who insisted/demanded that I inspect their car. That didn't mean that I couldn't tell them I was backed up with work for 10 weeks (Which sucked for them if their inspection ran out in six days.). I was not required by that same law to do the repairs necessary to the car if it did not pass and I chose not to do so. And.....I was entitled to charge them a re-inspection fee if they went home, fixed it in two hours, and brought it back.
To the best of my knowledge, I could refuse to do regular repair work to anyone's car that I didn't feel like doing.
The point of all this was that when you're running a business, you have a myriad of ways to turn someone away without being stupid and committing business suicide. What this woman did to her business with all this horrid publicity was to torpedo it.
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01/05/2010 08:04:20 PM · #3794 |
I'm confused why we are talking about Uganda? None of us are Ugandan (I think) so none of us will have the personal experience they do and none of us have the right to dictate what they consider right or wrong. Isn't that the takehome from the last few days? Right and wrong is defined by personal experience and maybe culture?
It confuses me greatly when I see "personal experience" people imply that the personal experiences of another group of people are wrong... |
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01/05/2010 08:07:22 PM · #3795 |
I think 'caus of this.....This thread has been around the world a few times anyway, may as well lock it.
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01/05/2010 08:09:58 PM · #3796 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm confused why we are talking about Uganda? None of us are Ugandan (I think) so none of us will have the personal experience they do and none of us have the right to dictate what they consider right or wrong. Isn't that the takehome from the last few days? Right and wrong is defined by personal experience and maybe culture?
It confuses me greatly when I see "personal experience" people imply that the personal experiences of another group of people are wrong... |
Bingo! Seems like there's an absolute moral code at work here, doesn't it?
R. |
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01/05/2010 08:10:24 PM · #3797 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
I think 'caus of this.....This thread has been around the world a few times anyway, may as well lock it.
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Thanks David. I was actually speaking a bit tongue-in-cheek. I knew it was because of that, but I didn't quite get the implication that what was going down was Wrong (with a capital "W") rather than just scratching our heads at another culture and maybe just saying, "I'm happy we aren't like that". |
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01/05/2010 08:10:35 PM · #3798 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Just a couple of quotes from the other side of the coin..
Cal O, Catonsville,MD January 4th, 2010 1:18 pm.........In what way are Uganda's laws "homophobic?" They are an attempt (whatever else may be said about them) to regulate and punish behavior seen as immoral and corrupting to society. Why is it necessary to characterize them as the result of a phobia, or irrational fear? To properly do so would require a clinical diagnosis of all of those supporting the law as having a deviant psychological disorder. Do you call anti-drug or anti-child pornography laws "pharmaphobic" or "pederastiphobic?" The desire to prohibit and punish behavior seen as immoral and destructive does not automatically imply an irrational fear of or a pathological aversion to the behavior in question.
Dan, Philadelphia,PA January 4th, 2010 12:20 pm In comparison to its African neighbors, is Uganda really exceptional in this regard? A quick perusal of Wikipedia resources suggests that homosexuality is illegal with stiff penalties (jail for > 1 year or death penalty) in Algeria, Libya, Morocco, Sudan, Tunisia, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Mauritania, Nigeria, Cameroon, Burundi, Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya, Malawi, Mauritius, Somalia, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe Zimbabwe, and Botswana. |
Neither of which are relevant, haven't been shut down in most of their various iterations here, and speak to so much of the problem.
Nobody said that being a homophobe was deviant psychological behavior......it's for the most part simply an irrational fear and plain old fashioned nastiness.
As for the second post, what's your point? We're trying to stop discrimination everywhere. That's just a list of places that need work.
And Uganda was the place that got all riled up by some @%$$holes spouting untruths under an ugly mantle of so-called respectability. Now the jerks want to backpedal????
If anyone dies from the fallout, they ought to be held responsible.
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01/05/2010 08:13:20 PM · #3799 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm confused why we are talking about Uganda? None of us are Ugandan (I think) so none of us will have the personal experience they do and none of us have the right to dictate what they consider right or wrong. Isn't that the takehome from the last few days? Right and wrong is defined by personal experience and maybe culture? |
Then what were those three evangelists doing there?
They had *ZERO* business being there!
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01/05/2010 08:13:23 PM · #3800 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
We're trying to stop discrimination everywhere. |
This is part and parcel of what I'm talking about. Doesn't that sound like us forcing our morality on them? For a "personal experience" guy, Jeb, you don't sound like all "personal experiences" are created equally... |
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