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08/17/2009 08:00:36 PM · #2701 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... What do conservatives offer in marriage's stead? Silence. |
Civil Union with legal rights. Just don't call in "Marriage". I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. |
As it was with abolishing slavery... equal but not really equal, hence the Jim Crow laws. The subjugation of others to lower "classes" of equality is un-American and shameful. Change is inevitable, and the only difference between then and now is that a Google search will tell our great grandchildren where we stood on the issue. |
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08/17/2009 08:09:29 PM · #2702 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... What do conservatives offer in marriage's stead? Silence. |
Civil Union with legal rights. Just don't call in "Marriage". I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. |
As it was with abolishing slavery... equal but not really equal, hence the Jim Crow laws. The subjugation of others to lower "classes" of equality is un-American and shameful. Change is inevitable, and the only difference between then and now is that a Google search will tell our great grandchildren where we stood on the issue. |
He-he. Should have expected to see you coming on this...
Bottom line: Marriage is between one man, one woman. I'll be proud to have my great grandchildren read my stance on it. Google away.
Oh. Almost forgot. At least I'll have great grandchildren. You know, the one man, one woman marriage thing. I know, two people of the same sex can adopt. Hooray.
Message edited by author 2009-08-17 20:14:01. |
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08/17/2009 08:19:17 PM · #2703 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... What do conservatives offer in marriage's stead? Silence. |
Civil Union with legal rights. Just don't call in "Marriage". I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. |
As it was with abolishing slavery... equal but not really equal, hence the Jim Crow laws. The subjugation of others to lower "classes" of equality is un-American and shameful. Change is inevitable, and the only difference between then and now is that a Google search will tell our great grandchildren where we stood on the issue. |
He-he. Should have expected to see you coming on this...
Bottom line: Marriage is between one man, one woman. I'll be proud to have my great grandchildren read my stance on it. Google away.
Oh. Almost forgot. At least I'll have great grandchildren. You know, the one man, one woman marriage thing. I know, two people of the same sex can adopt. Hooray. |
... can adopt those children abandoned and abused by countless one man and one woman couplings that you are so evidently proud of. It's a huge circle, humanity, and we have room for all kinds of wonderful people and wonderful couplings. There are countries outside of your U.S.A. that have had legal same-sex marriages for some time now, and guess what? No apocalypse. It's just another day at the office. Humanity goes on.
You're comfortable in your arrogance and naivete, but it doesn't make your assertions any more true. |
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08/17/2009 08:57:34 PM · #2704 |
glad2badad, I have a piece of paper that incontrovertibly proves that marriage is not between one man and one woman. Would you like me to scan and post it? Do you deny the absolute existence of my legal marriage?
Reality trumps your assertions.
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08/17/2009 09:04:56 PM · #2705 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
... You're comfortable in your arrogance and naivete, but it doesn't make your assertions any more true. |
:-) Ok. If you say so...
True, not true, I don't really care. I'm certainly not alone in my thoughts and opinion. If I wasn't then you'd have gay "marriage" in every state without conflict at this point. You don't.
As I responded to Mousies post, many conservatives are opposed to the "marriage" language. I really don't think overall it's the legal rights that is the sticking point. |
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08/17/2009 09:06:05 PM · #2706 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
glad2badad, I have a piece of paper that incontrovertibly proves that marriage is not between one man and one woman. Would you like me to scan and post it? Do you deny the absolute existence of my legal marriage?
Reality trumps your assertions. |
Your piece paper is worthless to me. Don't lose it - you may never be able to replace it. :-) |
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08/17/2009 09:11:09 PM · #2707 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Mousie:
glad2badad, I have a piece of paper that incontrovertibly proves that marriage is not between one man and one woman. Would you like me to scan and post it? Do you deny the absolute existence of my legal marriage?
Reality trumps your assertions. |
Your piece paper is worthless to me. Don't lose it - you may never be able to replace it. :-) |
I'm surprised to see you're so cavalier about not adhering to the law as written. It must be convenient.
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08/17/2009 09:32:27 PM · #2708 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... What do conservatives offer in marriage's stead? Silence. |
Civil Union with legal rights. Just don't call in "Marriage". I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. |
As it was with abolishing slavery... equal but not really equal, hence the Jim Crow laws. The subjugation of others to lower "classes" of equality is un-American and shameful. Change is inevitable, and the only difference between then and now is that a Google search will tell our great grandchildren where we stood on the issue. |
He-he. Should have expected to see you coming on this...
Bottom line: Marriage is between one man, one woman. I'll be proud to have my great grandchildren read my stance on it. Google away.
Oh. Almost forgot. At least I'll have great grandchildren. You know, the one man, one woman marriage thing. I know, two people of the same sex can adopt. Hooray. |
But your great granchildren may not be as proud as you, IF you have great grandchildren. |
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08/17/2009 09:39:20 PM · #2709 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... What do conservatives offer in marriage's stead? Silence. |
Civil Union with legal rights. Just don't call in "Marriage". I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. |
As it was with abolishing slavery... equal but not really equal, hence the Jim Crow laws. The subjugation of others to lower "classes" of equality is un-American and shameful. Change is inevitable, and the only difference between then and now is that a Google search will tell our great grandchildren where we stood on the issue. |
He-he. Should have expected to see you coming on this...
Bottom line: Marriage is between one man, one woman. I'll be proud to have my great grandchildren read my stance on it. Google away.
Oh. Almost forgot. At least I'll have great grandchildren. You know, the one man, one woman marriage thing. I know, two people of the same sex can adopt. Hooray. |
One other thing, the tone of this message is conveying that adoption somehow makes a person less of a parent, or the love of that parent for their children something lesser than anything a birth parent would feel. Do you really feel this? That adoptive parents and children are somehow a lesser people? That the grandchildren and great grandchildren of parents with adopted children aren't actually grandchildren and great grandchildren?
Can you not see how ridiculous that statement is?
Of course you can't. |
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08/17/2009 09:40:33 PM · #2710 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
... What do conservatives offer in marriage's stead? Silence. |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Civil Union with legal rights. Just don't call in "Marriage". I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. Marriage is between one man and one woman. |
Hey Bear!
How old are you?
I'm 54 and certainly a member of the older generation by a Hell of a lot of the population.
I certainly view Mousie's relationship as a marriage.
Seems VERY similar in concept and style as what I have with the woman whom I've shared a life for the past 31 years.
Am I old enough for your definition? How about Robert? Is he?
Does the fact that I have a wife whom I've shared a life with for 31 years, 26 of them as legal man and wife, and FULLY support EQUALITY in marriage mean anything to you?
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08/17/2009 09:42:32 PM · #2711 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
... You're comfortable in your arrogance and naivete, but it doesn't make your assertions any more true. |
:-) Ok. If you say so...
True, not true, I don't really care. I'm certainly not alone in my thoughts and opinion. If I wasn't then you'd have gay "marriage" in every state without conflict at this point. You don't.
As I responded to Mousies post, many conservatives are opposed to the "marriage" language. I really don't think overall it's the legal rights that is the sticking point. |
Not being alone in your thoughts and opinions is where the comfort level comes in, isn't it? Of course, people haven't been alone in thoughts and opinions that were proven to be incorrect/archaic/hurtful/destructive/etc. before. They will be again. Change, adaptation, compassion, etc, are the marks of a humanity that your precious Jesus would be more akin to embracing, don't you think? Not steadfast refusal to move forward over some SEMANTIC.
Of course, you summed it up in just three words in your post "I don't care." It's obvious that you don't. Very obvious.
Message edited by author 2009-08-17 21:44:14. |
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08/17/2009 09:44:18 PM · #2712 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Bottom line: Marriage is between one man, one woman. |
Actually, it isn't, and I have same-sex married friends to prove it.
Too bad about your luck, it just simply isn't true any longer.
Thank God!
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08/17/2009 10:09:40 PM · #2713 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... What do conservatives offer in marriage's stead? Silence. |
Civil Union with legal rights. Just don't call in "Marriage". I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. Marriage is between one man and one woman. |
I have no idea as to what age you might be, but I happen to be over 60 years of age and have absolutely no problem with the the term marriage being used to identify the union of same sex couples and would venture to say that there are several others that share my views.
I truly cannot begin to understand why this resistance continues to persist.
Ray |
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08/17/2009 10:57:41 PM · #2714 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I truly cannot begin to understand why this resistance continues to persist. |
Conservative: "a person who is averse to change and holds to traditional values and attitudes, typically in relation to politics." They are quite literally DEFINED by resistance to change. |
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08/17/2009 11:39:58 PM · #2715 |
| My mother was 87 when she died and she accepted same-sex marriage. Sorry, you can't blame age for intolerance. |
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08/18/2009 11:08:17 AM · #2716 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I have a piece of paper that incontrovertibly proves that marriage is not between one man and one woman. Would you like me to scan and post it? Do you deny the absolute existence of my legal marriage?
Reality trumps your assertions. |
Yes, that's a real interesting thing. California passed Prop 8, so marriage is between man and a woman.
Except for the few who were able to get married before Prop 8 passed. It's very confusing. I wonder how that would play out in court.
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08/18/2009 11:18:43 AM · #2717 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Hey Bear!
How old are you?
I'm 54 and certainly a member of the older generation by a Hell of a lot of the population.
I certainly view Mousie's relationship as a marriage.
Seems VERY similar in concept and style as what I have with the woman whom I've shared a life for the past 31 years.
Am I old enough for your definition? How about Robert? Is he? |
Just shy of 63 years old...
R. |
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08/18/2009 12:00:18 PM · #2718 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Your piece paper is worthless to me. Don't lose it - you may never be able to replace it. :-) |
You know, I have to revisit this.
What glad is saying here is that what's important to me is worthless to him. That my very LIFE is worthless to him. I'm married. That IS my life. I am my husband, and he is me. Legally.
The only way I can interpret this is as a complete lack of respect for my husband and I as humans and citizens.
I played by the goddamn rules. I waited to marry until it was legal. My marriage has been POSITIVELY CONFIRMED as legal, even surviving court cases against it. I waited fourteen long years for this. I've done everything I could to do it RIGHT. I do everything I can to make it WORK.
But that's not good enough for glad. What my family wants isn't good enough. What my friends want isn't good enough. What I want isn't good enough.
What I'm being told is that even if I play by the rules I will NEVER get equality, if it's left up to those who feel like glad does. Live a good life, be a good citizen, pay my takes, respect my neighbors, stay honest, stand up for what I think is right... even follow the law as written... and still I'm worthless.
It makes me sick.
And to flippantly toss this my way with an admonishment to not lose my wedding license? Do you have any fucking idea how that makes me feel? I already have two goddamn copies just in case, because I have to live in a world filled with your peers, glad. That's like telling a black man to carry a big pair of scissors around in case someone tries to lynch him. Will it be as funny when I don't have my license available in an emergency, and some skeptical dbag challenges the validity of my relationship?
I don't think so.
Message edited by author 2009-08-18 12:12:53. |
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08/18/2009 12:11:18 PM · #2719 |
And while I'm being snippy...
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. |
The older generation? For quite some time? Less time than any other demographic currently against equal rights for homosexuals, I bet. Since they typically die first.
Can't say I'm not looking forward to it.
(My apologies to the poor old liberals, who seem to get lumped in with the old conservatives whenever convenient.)
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08/18/2009 12:22:25 PM · #2720 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
And while I'm being snippy... |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. |
Originally posted by Mousie:
The older generation? For quite some time? Less time than any other demographic currently against equal rights for homosexuals, I bet. Since they typically die first.
Can't say I'm not looking forward to it.
(My apologies to the poor old liberals, who seem to get lumped in with the old conservatives whenever convenient.) |
Go ahead and be snippy.
Personally, I find the narrow and obstinate, extremely disrespectful attitudes of the conservatives like that to be an embarrassment.
We're supposed to be progressive, accepting, and tolerant......hey, wasn't America founded on the principles of equality and freedom?
I don't remember seeing anything in the writings about all men are created equal, unless they're black, gay, whatever......
I'm glad to see that gay rights, and the continuing struggle for equality is gaining ground.
I'm sad that people still have so mch hatred and fear for that they have been blindly led to believe is right, with no consideration for their brothers and sisters who are different than them.
Mousie, know that there are many individuals, and families, who stand by you in their beklief, and hope, for equality.
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08/18/2009 12:34:50 PM · #2721 |
Marriage, for civil purposes, is the lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others.
a marriage is not void or voidable by reason only that the spouses are of the same sex.
I have a real problem with people who state, "marriage is between a man and a woman", period. Maybe in your part of the world that's true, maybe that's what you wish were true, but for millions that is NOT true.
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08/18/2009 02:33:58 PM · #2722 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
As I responded to Mousies post, many conservatives are opposed to the "marriage" language. I really don't think overall it's the legal rights that is the sticking point. |
So basically what your saying to gay people is "You are equal and have exactly the smae rights, but you're not allowed to use OUR word, you get your own"
not what I call "equal" |
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08/18/2009 04:29:55 PM · #2723 |
really? what in the hell are you going to do if your child / children 'turn out' to be gay or bi? probably disown them or try to preach them into some unnatural conversion...
your statements absolutely disgust me barry. there - I said it, exactly as I've meant to for nearly 3 years. your hatred and nonacceptance of those unlike yourself is deplorable. I predict that you will either become ashamed of your current stance & learn to be a better person, or you will become just like all the other 'bitter old bastards' before you - those wretched old men who are an absolute embarrassment to their family. Like them, your children might have to make excuses to your grandchildren or other family visitors, saying things like "oh, that's just grandpa - he's from an older generation and just doesn't understand". Unfortunately, they won't realize they're just enabling that behaviour a little longer (because they'll be glad to not have to hear it when you are finally dead and gone)
ugh - I was going to type more, but you get the gist of it...
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... What do conservatives offer in marriage's stead? Silence. |
Civil Union with legal rights. Just don't call in "Marriage". I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. |
As it was with abolishing slavery... equal but not really equal, hence the Jim Crow laws. The subjugation of others to lower "classes" of equality is un-American and shameful. Change is inevitable, and the only difference between then and now is that a Google search will tell our great grandchildren where we stood on the issue. |
He-he. Should have expected to see you coming on this...
Bottom line: Marriage is between one man, one woman. I'll be proud to have my great grandchildren read my stance on it. Google away.
Oh. Almost forgot. At least I'll have great grandchildren. You know, the one man, one woman marriage thing. I know, two people of the same sex can adopt. Hooray. |
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08/18/2009 05:22:14 PM · #2724 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... What do conservatives offer in marriage's stead? Silence. |
Civil Union with legal rights. Just don't call in "Marriage". I'm telling you, it will be a long time coming to get past the marriage term with conservatives and the older generation for quite some time. |
As it was with abolishing slavery... equal but not really equal, hence the Jim Crow laws. The subjugation of others to lower "classes" of equality is un-American and shameful. Change is inevitable, and the only difference between then and now is that a Google search will tell our great grandchildren where we stood on the issue. |
How can you equate slavery with this issue. Nobody is owning homosexuals. Anyone who thinks a homosexual is a lower class of citizen has other issues.
However, marriage is and has always been between a man and a woman. It has been so accepted that nobody has written it down in the law. It was just assumed.
Now that people are questioning it, all the states are backpedaling to get it defined.
If itâs inevitable, only time will tell.
Edit:
Hereâs a solution: Anybody should be able to join into a contract with anyone else not limited to sex or number. You do have to be of legal age to sign a contract. This should be recognized by the state (Civil union).
If you want to get your union blessed by the church (ie the sacrement of Marriage), you'll have to find a church to do it. This will return the sacrament of marriage back to the churches which have a right to decimate based on their religious believes.
Message edited by author 2009-08-18 17:32:59. |
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08/18/2009 05:53:30 PM · #2725 |
So Mouse, please don't take this the wrong way. But why do you want marriage certificate?
Same sex couples can already get durable powers of attorney, surrogate decisions, wills, and inheritance-any of these can be tailored to cover homosexual relationships without the need for marriage.
It sounds like you're just looking for acceptance. You want to be able to go to a hospital and say, âMy husbands here, Iâd like to see him,â and not be hassled.
My wife fell off a ladder and hit her head. Luckily, she had her cell phone with her and she called me. I had her walk to a neighbor and have them drive her to the hospital (it was only 2 miles away). All the while, she kept on forgetting what happened. I was able to walk into the hospital say, âMy wife, , is admitted here.â Without a second thought, they let me in. I didnât need to produce my marriage certificate or any papers. They didnât even check my ID.
I believe the time will come when you're accepted. Just donât threaten my sacramental covenant called a marriage.
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