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07/16/2009 12:03:18 AM · #76 |
Listen, I am appreciative of the people who have tried to help. Matt's attitude has been under my skin for a while and it's finally boiled to the surface. It's obvious that I am not some outlier who feels that mechanics have a ways to go to earn our trust. The Harris poll from 2006 has 12% of Americans considering auto mechanics to be "completely trustworthy".
I started the thread asking for help because I was in the process of developing a relationship with a mechanic and unfortunately our relationship was turning out to be the equivalent of "going all the way" on the first date. Nobody likes a $1500 (now $2000) bill. I wasn't asking for advice on how to low ball the guy, I was prepared to take my lumps, but I asked "What questions should I be asking the independent guy to get a feel for how sure we are this fix will fix everything?" I was looking for education. Is that reasonable?
Let's review your helpful answers Matt:
Post #1: I'm not saying nothing.
Post #2: Jargon Jargon Jargon. Not helpful at all in explaining anything to the layperson.
Post #3: "Some people have to learn the hard way."
Post #4: Almost helpful until you launch into jargon jargon jargon again. VVT? VCT? WTF?
Post #5: Nobody should help you because you are a Bad Customer(TM) because you go to an independent mechanic.
You remind me of the doctor who thinks he's really good because he's really smart (I'm guessing/hoping you know your stuff. The jargon at least fools me into thinking it.), but has a crappy bedside manner and doesn't take time to actually care for the patient. That actually makes him a bad doctor instead of a good one. That's why I have little patience for your attitude. You could probably do so much more and be so much more helpful to people like myself who admit firsthand to not knowing a lot about automobiles. Do you even get where people are coming from when they are facing a multi-thousand dollar bill from someone who belongs to a profession where the national confidence level is 12%?
At the end of the day, I am actually really happy about the guy doing the work for me. He's taken over 30 minutes over the last two days to talk to me face to face. This is the owner. He brought me back to the shop to show me the head and what was broken. He gave me his philosophy about fixing some other stuff while the engine was out because you'd eventually need to do it anyway but wasn't pushy and was up front with the extra costs. So perhaps I'm going to lose out on Subaru helping me much on what amounts to really bad luck, but it's probably worth it because I now know a Good Mechanic(TM). And we all know Good Mechanics are worth their weight in gold. |
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07/16/2009 12:19:30 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Reaching out to the mechanics! Give me your best shot there  MattO! |
When you start a thread like this and call me out. I'm not sure what you expect.
I took the time to give you tests that you could have written down and taken to your mechanic(do you really need to understand what the tests are to ask him if he has done them?) he could have answered yes or no, and given you an explanation of why he has or hasn't done them. I gave you reason's to possibly question his diagnoses(even you and the Subaru guy already did) and gave you reason's why none of my techs would pull the head until they were done. All of this after you called me out initially, and then took a pot shot at Dealers across the world with your statement. I wasn't the only person telling you to question it without more simple testing that was the least intrusive way to determine the possible cause. Then you take pot shots at me and my photography business because I own a 1Ds(which was bought used btw), just like many times in the past when you have taken shots at me. And I'm the one under your skin? I'd suggest if you don't want me under your skin, don't call me out in your posts then get pissy when I enter them. I'd suggest you look a little deeper at yourself before you start tossing stones at me, you obviously haven't taken the time to know me, my business, or my abilities under the hood or behind the camera. Want me not to take pot shots at you? Stop taking them at me.
Matt
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07/16/2009 02:24:33 AM · #78 |
Come on Matt. Do you really think your suggestions were helpful? What would it benefit for me to take a list of tests which are meaningless to me to the mechanic? Well, have you tried A, B, and C? Two things would have happened. He would have been pissed at me because I obviously didn't know what I was talking about, or he would have said, "ya, I did and I got X, Y, and Z". What am I supposed to do then? Tell him to hold on while I got back to my internet friends because I don't know what the hell he was saying?
What I needed was basic education. What I got was particle physics. Perhaps a benefit of the thread would be for you to understand that your customer where you work needs down-to-earth answers instead of answer that make you sound really smart.
Because I own up to my shortcomings, I will tell you straight up I was over the line with my comment about the 1Ds. Like I said, this was a long time coming and perhaps the emotion came out a little strong. If I wanted to make the effort I could go back through you posts and show how you tend to show up in threads I start and make little snide comments without providing anything useful. I was just finally fed up with it. If you will simply knock that off and let me be the do-it-yourself guy that I am, then perhaps we can just keep to our sides of the playground. |
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07/16/2009 06:16:09 AM · #79 |
Matt has done nothing but be helpful while you've been nothing but flippant and generally derogatory to him in particular and the entire automotive repair industry in general.
I've sat here and watched/listened to you pretty much ignore what you decided you didn't want to hear.
You've pretty much patently ignored two people who have spent their entire careers seriously helping people despite the shitty attitude that most people have about mechanics & dealers.....and who have offered you intelligent, knowledgeable advice.
Had you been having your vehicle serviced and maintained, properly, by a Subaru facility, they probably would have at the least, covered the head itself, and you'd have had to pay some or all of the labor.
Personally, had you had the attitude and general demeanor you've demonstrated in this thread at the door of my shop, I would have recommended that you go elsewhere.
And to take that absolutely reprehensible shot at Matt about his camera??????
Wow!
So you get to decide what's an appropriate way for him to spend his discretionary income?
BTW, as a serious professional that has both worked for dealers and had his own shop for two decades, it's easy to recognize someone who *really* knows his stuff.
Matt is one of those people.
You choose to blow him off.....and not particularly nicely.
Oh....and in regards to this.....
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
What I needed was basic education. What I got was particle physics. Perhaps a benefit of the thread would be for you to understand that your customer where you work needs down-to-earth answers instead of answer that make you sound really smart. |
Maybe instead of busting his balls, you could have actually asked that at the time.
The comment you're referring to I am assuming is this.....
Originally posted by MattO:
Further testing should include a relative compression test, running compression test, I'd also suggest a good look at the fuel trims and adaptive fuel curves for that bank of cylinders at idle and 2500 RPM's. I'd also suggest to see if there has been a reflash done on the computer and if the injectors have been looked at for flow, what are the O2 sensors doing at doing at idle and 2500 RPM and how well they respond to additional fuel from an outside source. |
Had you bothered to pursue this, and actually listen and take heed, you would have found that someone capable of doing these tests would have been able to tell you without pulling the head that there was hard mechanical damage in the valve train.
Oh.....and the Subaru rep's opinion that they might actually help on *ANY* level, especially considering your whole attitude is completely astonishing to me.
Just to spell it out for you.....
That means that they care about their reputation for reliability and in spite of your wholly rude and condescending attitude about their dealer, they're willing to consider assistance anyway.
Good luck with your car.........you're on your own as far as I'm concerned......not that you'd care.
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07/16/2009 09:43:22 AM · #80 |
Way out of line Doc. You asked for help, several people gave great advice even though early on you trashed their career choice (I avoid dealers...).
Several of us said to take it to the dealer, had you listened you'd be much happier. That is not Matt's fault.
I think the best part is the rant about corporations just wanting to make money precceded by how can I get some money out of this corporation.
Bad bed side manner. |
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07/16/2009 02:06:49 PM · #81 |
I'm just glad to see that your hatred of me is not just a passing glimmer and that its genuine, I'd sure hate for you to feel bad for saying what you have about me and the industry in which I have supported my family while building a customer base for my employer without actually meaning it. I sure hope you feel better about yourself by doing this. I mean heck you took the time to bait me by calling me out in your OP, then took several personal shots at me all of which I tried my best to stay professional aside from the one statement which will ring so prominent in all of this that had you gone to the dealer your request for assistance would likely have been much greater at getting listened to by Subaru, so essentially you likely will learn the hard way. You have really done yourself proud on this one Doc. Stay classy. I wonder at this point if it would out of line to forward this thread to any of the upper service management in your area at Subaru so they can see just what you think about Corporate America and dealers in general.
Matt |
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07/16/2009 03:03:55 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by MattO:
I'm just glad to see that your hatred of me is not just a passing glimmer and that its genuine, I'd sure hate for you to feel bad for saying what you have about me and the industry in which I have supported my family while building a customer base for my employer without actually meaning it. I sure hope you feel better about yourself by doing this. I mean heck you took the time to bait me by calling me out in your OP, then took several personal shots at me all of which I tried my best to stay professional aside from the one statement which will ring so prominent in all of this that had you gone to the dealer your request for assistance would likely have been much greater at getting listened to by Subaru, so essentially you likely will learn the hard way. You have really done yourself proud on this one Doc. Stay classy. I wonder at this point if it would out of line to forward this thread to any of the upper service management in your area at Subaru so they can see just what you think about Corporate America and dealers in general.
Matt |
That would just be petty and pedantic.....no need for that, is there?......8>)
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07/16/2009 03:16:33 PM · #83 |
I was just going to let this thread die because it's obviously gone in a direction I didn't originally intend, but I will mount one last defense and then let it be.
1) I have appreciated the input given on the thread and advice not taken is quite different from advice ignored. I read every post and interfaced it into the real world scenario I'm facing here which always involves more factors than the straightforward discussion being had. The time factor was a large part of the story and bears nothing on the discussion itself. Having a mechanic I trust is also a big part of the real scenario.
2) As far as you go Matt, I don't think you can snipe here and there over the years and then when I finally lash out throw your hands up as Mr. Innocent with the "what-did-I-do?" expression on your face. The use of your name in the OP was actually an attempt at bridge mending. I thought, apparently incorrectly, that you would be impressed that I was even taking it a mechanic instead of asking people how to fix it myself. Your first reply in this thread was your usual snide comment and so you aren't without guilt even here ("I would offer help, but since I'm a dealer mechanic(although not on imports) and you avoid them like the plague, so I'll just sit back and watch what happens."). If that's your idea of "trying my best to stay professional" then I'm not sure what counts as professional in your book. You obviously took offense with my "plague" reference, but such phrases are just thrown out as hyperbole. If someone said, "I wouldnt touch that thing for less then $1k, but that takes into consideration I'd have to touch a foriegn car!" should a foreign car manufacturer take offense? It looks like you can employ such hyperbole as well.
3) As far as dealer mechanics in general, I'm sure getting caught in a stereotype is no fun for anybody. However, that may be the price paid for a generally poor preformance by the industry. I also realize (and posted IN THIS THREAD to such effect) that there are many players from the car manufacturer, to the dealer, to the individual mechanic and that it's quite possible that individual components are honest while the system faces problems from conflicts of interest. I'll give you a quick example. Subaru puts regular spark plugs in their 2.5L engines but puts platinum plugs in their 3.0L and turbo models. Given the difference in price is on the order of $50, why would a car company not put platinum plugs in all their engines? There appears to be a direct conflict of interest in that plugs are now more difficult to change (usually requiring a mechanic) and that regular plugs need changing ever 30,000 miles instead of 60,000 (for the platinum). Over the life of a car that's perhaps 3 extra changes at maybe $150 a pop. I've tried to find some reasonable explanation for why they wouldn't put the plantinum plugs in, but I have yet to find it (other than the conflicted one I presented). In fact, the guy I'm working with here says Subaru did it for 2 years then went back. I know that's not the mechanic or even the dealer's doing, but it's things like this that give me a cynical attitude about the industry. The independent mechanic could have his own issues, but is at least disconnected from any behind-the-scenes dealings which may or may not exist. This is one reason why I favor them. I can clearly see what their interests are and don't have to worry about hidden ones. Look, I am not alone here. If you simply google "dealer mechanic", the #1 result is Don't get caught by dealer scams. Even if we make the assumption the page is false, the impression obviously exists and is prevalent.
If Matt wants to come to some detente, then I'm happy to let it go. If he wants to just think I'm an ass, then that's his right. If he keeps that opinion from following me every thread I start then I'm happy to just let it be. I work at being pleasant, but I know I can't be liked by everybody.
Message edited by author 2009-07-16 15:19:09. |
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07/16/2009 04:44:49 PM · #84 |
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07/16/2009 05:02:40 PM · #85 |
| I think doctors are a bunch of a-holes, but does anyone know what I can do about this rash? Doc, can you help me out? |
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07/16/2009 05:32:16 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I think doctors are a bunch of a-holes, but does anyone know what I can do about this rash? Doc, can you help me out? |
What does it look like? ;) |
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07/16/2009 06:00:48 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I work at being pleasant, but I know I can't be liked by everybody. |
Asking someone for their professional opinion, then crucifying them over their advice and belittling their career when they do respond isn't what I'd call "working at being pleasant", but if that's how you choose to see it, I guess that says it all. |
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07/16/2009 06:04:45 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I think doctors are a bunch of a-holes, but does anyone know what I can do about this rash? Doc, can you help me out? |
What does it look like? ;) |
Nevermind, I went to a holistic chiropractor. Chewing on lavendar leaves while humming should cure it. |
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07/16/2009 06:15:05 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Nevermind, I went to a holistic chiropractor. Chewing on lavendar leaves while humming should cure it. |
Heh. Good one. I think my point is everybody comes to the table with their own experiences. Maybe you hate docs because of some bad experiences from the docs you've run across. If I just blow you off because you have a bad attitude due to your experiences, how is that possibly going to change your impression? It will only exacerbate it.
Spaz, I think you take the point too far. I didn't "cruicfy" anybody over their career choice. I said I avoid dealer mechanics (hardly unusual) while at the same time saying it may not be a problem that lies with the individual mechanic but rather the system they are a part of. Where I got personal with Matt, I recanted. It seems you are just heaping it on at this point. |
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07/16/2009 06:26:01 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Nevermind, I went to a holistic chiropractor. Chewing on lavendar leaves while humming should cure it. |
Heh. Good one. I think my point is everybody comes to the table with their own experiences. Maybe you hate docs because of some bad experiences from the docs you've run across. If I just blow you off because you have a bad attitude due to your experiences, how is that possibly going to change your impression? It will only exacerbate it.
Spaz, I think you take the point too far. I didn't "cruicfy" anybody over their career choice. I said I avoid dealer mechanics (hardly unusual) while at the same time saying it may not be a problem that lies with the individual mechanic but rather the system they are a part of. Where I got personal with Matt, I recanted. It seems you are just heaping it on at this point. |
If that helps you feel better about yourself despite what you've done here, great.
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07/16/2009 10:06:24 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
3) As far as dealer mechanics in general, I'm sure getting caught in a stereotype is no fun for anybody. However, that may be the price paid for a generally poor preformance by the industry. I also realize (and posted IN THIS THREAD to such effect) that there are many players from the car manufacturer, to the dealer, to the individual mechanic and that it's quite possible that individual components are honest while the system faces problems from conflicts of interest. I'll give you a quick example. Subaru puts regular spark plugs in their 2.5L engines but puts platinum plugs in their 3.0L and turbo models. Given the difference in price is on the order of $50, why would a car company not put platinum plugs in all their engines? There appears to be a direct conflict of interest in that plugs are now more difficult to change (usually requiring a mechanic) and that regular plugs need changing ever 30,000 miles instead of 60,000 (for the platinum). Over the life of a car that's perhaps 3 extra changes at maybe $150 a pop. I've tried to find some reasonable explanation for why they wouldn't put the plantinum plugs in, but I have yet to find it (other than the conflicted one I presented). In fact, the guy I'm working with here says Subaru did it for 2 years then went back. I know that's not the mechanic or even the dealer's doing, but it's things like this that give me a cynical attitude about the industry. The independent mechanic could have his own issues, but is at least disconnected from any behind-the-scenes dealings which may or may not exist. This is one reason why I favor them. I can clearly see what their interests are and don't have to worry about hidden ones. Look, I am not alone here. If you simply google "dealer mechanic", the #1 result is Don't get caught by dealer scams. Even if we make the assumption the page is false, the impression obviously exists and is prevalent. |
If anyone is interested, we could pursue this, either here, or in a new thread.
That reputation is not entirely unwarranted, but it takes two to tango, and all too often, the dance partners aren't stepping to the same music.
The bottom line is that first and foremost, it's on you, the car owner, to educate yourself how not to get ripped off, and also to know how to take care of your car.
I'd be willing to offer insight, if, and only if, you'd like to......otherwise, I'll be quiet......8>)
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07/16/2009 10:23:31 PM · #92 |
I stopped dealing with dealer mechanics when I was charged $A450 for a service, found they hadn't done everything they were meant to (I had a light out, and they are meant to check Lights, but it was stil out when I drove it away). I now get a better level of service for less than half the price, and they don't miss stuff. That same place also changed out a number of parts (due to be replaced at 100,000km) at that service, however, I was promised (and was documenbted) that these were changed when they did the roadworthy when I brought it (and that work was done by the same place).....
If you can find a good mechanic, stick with them, there are many bad ones (including independants) around. However, I find the Dealer places I deal with are full of Apprentices whose work is rarely checked properly, and yet you are getting charged a Premiem price for getting the service through the dealer............
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07/16/2009 10:48:17 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I'd be willing to offer insight, if, and only if, you'd like to......otherwise, I'll be quiet......8>) |
I think that would be very helpful Jeb, but do it on another thread. This one has enough bad blood it should just be allowed to die. |
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07/16/2009 11:06:42 PM · #94 |
wow you came across as a complete arsehole Doc. And trust me, saying what you said about Matto was unbelievable.
But you overstepped your mark, came across as an condescending, arrogant arsehole and I do believe that you owe him an apology. |
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07/17/2009 02:17:34 AM · #95 |
Okay, that's enough back-and-forth. I'm locking this thread.
Message edited by author 2009-07-17 02:17:46. |
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07/17/2009 02:18:07 AM · #96 |
| Oh, right. I forgot I can't do that ... |
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07/17/2009 12:27:03 PM · #97 |
| Well, I wanna know the final outcome anyhow. |
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07/17/2009 12:51:42 PM · #98 |
Final outcome?
1) Matto divorced the situation and has left the site to pursue a career in mediation.
2) Doc is in the midst of typing yet another statement defending his position. He started yesterday at 1400. We should see the final draft soon.
3) NikonJeb is troubled by all this conflict and wants everyone to heal .... his way.
4) LoudDog is worried he lost his car keys on his last hike. He is still scratching...er...searching.
5) Spazmo99 is waiting in the bushes to leap.
6) David Ey is trying to stay focused on the big picture and get all the kids to settle.
The car? It is currently being serviced by the local scout troop in exchange for photo lessons.
;-) |
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07/17/2009 01:32:51 PM · #99 |
:) Thanks for a little levity Ivo.
I will give you the update at the end David. I'm planning on sending things into Subaru and seeing what they are willing to do, but I do understand it's past the warranty so anything I receive is a bonus. That might take a while to hear back from on that part. Hopefully the car itself will be done next week before I drive to Montana.
For those who didn't catch it, I apologized to Matt for getting personal with the quip about his camera or about how he runs his business. However, I didn't officially say the words "I'm sorry", so I'm sorry. It was out of line and unreasonable no matter what past we have. I know our differences go back to exactly the last time I brought up a thread about mechanics. In reviewing the thread I think, in fact, a few of the other people on the thread were annoying me more than Matt was.
Anyway, I'll be sure in the future to steer wide of Matt. Perhaps time heals all wounds, perhaps not. As I said before, this thread took a definite nasty turn that was not intended at the beginning. I'm happy every time this thread goes off the front page because I'm far from proud about it, but it keeps popping back up like a bad dream. :O
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07/17/2009 02:35:41 PM · #100 |
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