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07/20/2009 02:50:58 PM · #1 |
| How about I lock this thread with one last bump for the insane and vexed. :) |
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07/17/2009 06:57:44 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The update today is the head arrived as scheduled and is currently at the machinist. I'm hoping this is good news for getting things back to normal before Thursday. |
Just an opinion......
Once the car is back in service, at about 1K from the repair, take it back to John and let him dump the oil & filter. That'll ensure that any contaminants that got into the system (unavoidable) will be removed; and if he's as conscientious as you say, he'll appreciate the opportunity to eyeball the repair and make sure nothing is awry.
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07/17/2009 06:52:41 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You've supplied good information and advice. Thanks Jeb. |
Where do I send the bill for the consultation?
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07/17/2009 06:50:07 PM · #4 |
| You've supplied good information and advice. Thanks Jeb. |
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07/17/2009 06:44:22 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Thanks Jeb. The mechanic only uses OEM parts. |
Good deal!
When I had my shop, I only used OEM parts.....it saved time and aggravation.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm sure I would have gotten the correct diagnosis from the Subaru shop, but given what the true problem was, not any more quickly or efficiently. I'm assuming they would have narrowed the problem down to the second cylinder like John did and then not figured out the exact problem until they opened it up. (I might be wrong about this though.) We are talking like John missed the diagnosis when, in reality, he was close. Moving to the correct diagnosis didn't mean things were done that didn't to be. (Now whether that was lucky rather than good, I don't know...) |
I didn't express my thoughts clearly on this. I wasn't so much trying to take anything from John other than even if Subaru wasn't able to tell about the guide (Which they may have been if there's history of that issue.) but that either with or without the concrete diagnosis before teardown, you would have been in the most optimal position to bargain with Subaru for coverage.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The update today is the head arrived as scheduled and is currently at the machinist. I'm hoping this is good news for getting things back to normal before Thursday. |
Fingers crossed......8>)
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07/17/2009 06:37:50 PM · #6 |
| Drive it away. Sounds like it just started. Get a second opinion, or let deler diagnose, or just wait a couple of weeks and see if it goes away |
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07/17/2009 06:35:28 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Don't get me started on extended warranties. Every piece of reasonable advice considers extended warranties to be, on the average, beneficial only for the company (and I'm not just talking cars here but nearly all appliances/products). Yes, it would have helped me in this situation, but then I would have already paid for the repair by spending $2000 on the extended warranty. |
The difference in warranties that's problematic and dicey, is the difference between factory and third party warranties.
Most dealerships will try to sell you third party warranties (Part of the deserved reputation for scummy dealers) because the margin is better......the coverage is vastly inferior, and allows provisions for LKQ (Like kind & quality-read USED) parts to repair the job.....NOT something that happens with the factory warranties. The fine print on coverages & deductibles can be harrowing when you need the help.
Most third party companies won't give much, if anything, towards a rental, and the dealer is generally in no way obligated to furnish a loaner or rental. With the factory warranty, things are different. They are priced more, but you can usually include the warranty in the initial deal as well. Also, the manufacturer will often have provisions to purchase an extended warranty on a time payment plan before the base warranty runs out as well.
Again, it's an information thing, and it's on you to figure out all this stuff, which isn't always easy.
A lot of people spend a lot of time shopping for the vehicle and paying attention to how the vehicle is equipped and its best price but they spend ZERO time researching these things that are really important......like what's going to happen if the engine goes bang, or swallows a valve guide at say.....72K.
Edited for phat phingers.....8>)
Message edited by author 2009-07-17 18:38:22.
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07/17/2009 06:28:08 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
Wow, I am so surprised to hear that only dealerships know how to fix cars! |
Okay......let's go down that path.....
I am a fully certified ASE Master Technician, I have roughly four decades of assorted training and experience.
I think I probably know how to fix cars......I can flat guarantee you that you probably won't find anyone that knows more about repairing MGBs than I do......it's a finite segment since they're not changing anything in the manufacture, and I even developed a few fixes over the years for some inherent weak spots of that particular car. I also have a great deal of other experience, not the least of which was my own shop that I had for about twenty years.
Cars today under current manufacture change faster than you can possibly imagine if you're not privy to the inner workings of a dealer on a daily basis....something an independent not only cannot access due to proprietary concerns, but wouldn't be able to afford to under most conditions, either.
Now....I drive an '07 Ford Focus for my daily transportation. I *never* touch it other than to wash it, put gas in it, and occasionally fill the windshield washer bottle.....(I did that just last evening!)
I take it into my friendly neighborhood Ford store every 5000 miles for its "Works Package", which in this area goes for about $39.95 plus tax for an oil & filter change, brake inspection, and tire inflation & rotation. I have a cup of coffee while I wait, generally drop in first thing in the morning with NO appointment, and should they find anything wrong with the car, we make provisions for me to have the maintenance done at my expense, or the repairs done at Ford's expense as it's under warranty. They'll either run me to work, home, whatever, or loan me a car if it's under warranty and I must leave it on the spot. If I can schedule, I make my own other travel arrangements as it suits me.....including very reasonable rental rates from my Ford dealer. And when the car gets close, or runs out of warranty, I'll either keep it for a backup, a car for my daughter, or I'll replace it with a new car and start the process over.
I'm *always* out of there in under two hours, most times around an hour, and I am treated very well.
So......why would I want to go to an independent?
At the prices and availibilities of services available, why would I do it myself?
I need my car, I want factory parts installed, and the dealer has EVERYTHING I need for any given circumstance.....and they take care of me just fine.
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07/17/2009 06:03:54 PM · #9 |
Thanks Jeb. The mechanic only uses OEM parts.
I'm sure I would have gotten the correct diagnosis from the Subaru shop, but given what the true problem was, not any more quickly or efficiently. I'm assuming they would have narrowed the problem down to the second cylinder like John did and then not figured out the exact problem until they opened it up. (I might be wrong about this though.) We are talking like John missed the diagnosis when, in reality, he was close. Moving to the correct diagnosis didn't mean things were done that didn't to be. (Now whether that was lucky rather than good, I don't know...)
As far as moving the car goes, that's good information for me to know, so on the utterly lame chance that I have another car where the engine is sitting beside it, I'll bring that up. Had I known this I may have availed myself of the plan.
Don't get me started on extended warranties. Every piece of reasonable advice considers extended warranties to be, on the average, beneficial only for the company (and I'm not just talking cars here but nearly all appliances/products). Yes, it would have helped me in this situation, but then I would have already paid for the repair by spending $2000 on the extended warranty.
The update today is the head arrived as scheduled and is currently at the machinist. I'm hoping this is good news for getting things back to normal before Thursday.
Message edited by author 2009-07-17 18:04:36. |
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07/17/2009 05:49:39 PM · #10 |
| Wow, I am so surprised to hear that only dealerships know how to fix cars! |
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07/17/2009 05:44:21 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That was more a redundancy of effort issue. One guy has looked at if or $150 and thinks he knows what the problem is (but I'm not sure). The question was whether it was worth having anther guy look at it (the dealer) for additional money (and remember it was "minimum $99") to either come up with the same diagnosis or a different one. The advice here, I think, was sound to take it to the second guy and in the end I did not take that advice primarily out of an interest of time. The dealer wouldn't look at it for 48 hours and I had to have the car by next week for a trip to a family reunion. That's what probably made my mind up in the end. |
Just want to address a couple of points here in the interest of perspective.....
The phrase "Redundancy of effort"....true, but not. Most likely you would have gotten the correct and accurate diagnosis from Subaru, thereby nullifying the hesitant, and somewhat vague initial diagnosis.
You then mention that you're already putting restictions on the scenario monetarily....a reluctance to pay again.....except that you paid to get information that you should have gotten but did not, thereby making a choice NOT to have what would most likely have been the right place to do the job taken out of the equation.
You also mentioned earlier after having spoken to the Subaru area service rep, that you declined to have your vehicle taken to the dealer because of some strange concept that transportation would somehow be an issue.
Your words: The problem is the engine is out of the vehicle so towing it would probably not be a good idea with loose parts under the hood. A pretty absurd statement in the real world. You put the parts in a box, support the transmission, pull the car onto a rollback, and transport it safely and securely as has been done millions of times. The engine would generally be placed onto an old tire and lashed down securely alongside the vehicle.
Again, you made a choice. IMNSHO, not necessarily a good one.
And lastly, you state that you had a time constraint. This is always a problem......as soon as you place the time constraint upon the shop, the repair, the technician, you once again hamstring the operation.
I'm not trying to break your stones, but when you look at this objectively from the point of view that first and foremost comes the correct diagnosis, then a competent repair, you cannot really dictate either costs or time frame. It simply doesn't work that way. You'll suffer unnecessarily because of the choices that you have made, and unfortunately, the people who have been on the other side of the fence will be blamed. That's neither reasonable nor fair.
There's no reason that you cannot rent a car......had you used foresight, and gotten an extended factory warranty on the car in the first place, there's every reason to expect that right now you would be driving a late model Subaru on the factory's nickel as most manufacturers have their warranties last to 100K and even beyond......again, a choice you did not make.....
Car ownership is an exceptional burden and cash liability. You have to know what the parameters are that you're dealing with and plan accordingly. It's an expensive piece of equipment that must be cared for properly and used within its capabilities. It doesn't always go the way you hope, but the more intelligently you provide for the INEVITABLE glitch in the system, the less of a nightmare it has to be.
Gap insurance, deductibles, regular collision insurance and the deductibles, drivetrain warranties, rental car provisions, windshield riders.......ALL of these are factors that you have to consider when you have a car. And although in a perfect world these factors certainly don't always happen, it usually isn't because of anyone's fault but the owner because they didn't make the right provisions.
Not everyone can afford the coverages necessary for every scenario, either, but there is always an alternative, such as having a decent third car to fall back upon.
The bottom line is this......there is ONE person looking out for your transportation needs.
You.
Make your choices as intelligently and wisely.....seek help the best that you can, do your homework, and hopefully, you can limit your aggravation factor.
Remember, as soon as you drive that sucker off the lot, it's deteriorating, depreciating, and racking up the miles on the maintenance curve to your next sensible service. Go about it with good sense, and foresight, and you can limit your liabilities behind the wheel to YOUR terms, as it suits you.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that your letter to Subaru of America demonstrates your having learned something from this semi-disastrous scenario, and that they will show some mercy and at least reimburse you for the cylinder head.
FWIW, I would suggest that your mechanic buy EVERYTHING that he needs for this job, right down to the drain plug gasket, from the Subaru store.....that WILL make a difference.
Good luck, Jason!
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07/17/2009 04:29:41 PM · #12 |
Unlike those in this thread, I've had nothing but good outcomes with both the toyota and ford dealers. They know the vehicles and usually have seen the problems I have before. I do, however, have a better than basic understanding of Autos. I also have friends that are well versed and I always bounce what the dealer (or mechanic) tells me before I approve the work.... Just my 2 cents.
Sorry Doc....
Message edited by author 2009-07-17 16:29:54. |
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07/17/2009 04:03:35 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
:)............... I'm happy every time this thread goes off the front page because I'm far from proud about it, but it keeps popping back up like a bad dream. :O |
;} |
Your pretty sassy for an 81 year old... |
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07/17/2009 04:00:51 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
:)............... I'm happy every time this thread goes off the front page because I'm far from proud about it, but it keeps popping back up like a bad dream. :O |
;} |
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07/17/2009 03:49:29 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by SteveJ:
...as it could have ended up very costly indeed... |
Haha. Well, we've visited that stop and are already a few miles further down the road. ;) |
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07/17/2009 03:41:43 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by SteveJ:
Understand:)) I asked earlier if the new plugs and leads had made any difference to the running and whether the engine light was now off? |
Well, no. The new plugs did not make a difference as far as I heard from John. In all the hub-bub above did you see they found the problem which was a broken valve guide? |
Yep, I noted that, but at the time it was still conjecture. Hopefully there is no further damage to the engine as it could have ended up very costly indeed. Hope everything is fixed soon:) |
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07/17/2009 03:36:19 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by SteveJ:
Understand:)) I asked earlier if the new plugs and leads had made any difference to the running and whether the engine light was now off? |
Well, no. The new plugs did not make a difference as far as I heard from John. In all the hub-bub above did you see they found the problem which was a broken valve guide? |
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07/17/2009 03:32:23 PM · #18 |
Slippy: "The washer fluid pump is broken. Please replace it."
Dealer: "OK."
=================
Later that day...
Dealer: "You need a new washer fluid pump. It'll take a week to get one in. It costs $180, labour to install it will be $90."
Slippy: "What's this bill?"
Dealer: "Oh, it's $50 to diagnose the problem."
Slippy: "WTF? I told you the problem, I should charge you! Shove your pump, you'll never see me here again."
================
The next day...
Slippy: "I need a new washer fluid pump, can you put one in?"
Non-dealer Mechanic: "Sure, I have a generic one here for $32."
Slippy: "How much for installation?"
Non-dealer Mechanic: "Don't worry about it, it'll only take a few minutes to put in."
(The generic pump has now outlasted the original pump.)
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07/17/2009 03:31:27 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by SteveJ:
You mentioned it in the first couple of posts, one where it was going to cost $1400 and had already cost you $150, and that the dealer would charge you another $99? And also the continued references to hoping it would cost no more that $1400. I can't understand why there is a lack of trust for a dealer whose work is covered by Subaru, yet you are prepared to 'trust' an independent mechanic who has already admitted that he has no idea what the problem is? Surely the dealer diagnostics would have isolated the fault? |
Ah, I getcha. That was more a redundancy of effort issue. One guy has looked at if or $150 and thinks he knows what the problem is (but I'm not sure). The question was whether it was worth having anther guy look at it (the dealer) for additional money (and remember it was "minimum $99") to either come up with the same diagnosis or a different one. The advice here, I think, was sound to take it to the second guy and in the end I did not take that advice primarily out of an interest of time. The dealer wouldn't look at it for 48 hours and I had to have the car by next week for a trip to a family reunion. That's what probably made my mind up in the end. |
Understand:)) I asked earlier if the new plugs and leads had made any difference to the running and whether the engine light was now off? |
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07/17/2009 03:27:28 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by SteveJ:
You mentioned it in the first couple of posts, one where it was going to cost $1400 and had already cost you $150, and that the dealer would charge you another $99? And also the continued references to hoping it would cost no more that $1400. I can't understand why there is a lack of trust for a dealer whose work is covered by Subaru, yet you are prepared to 'trust' an independent mechanic who has already admitted that he has no idea what the problem is? Surely the dealer diagnostics would have isolated the fault? |
Ah, I getcha. That was more a redundancy of effort issue. One guy has looked at if or $150 and thinks he knows what the problem is (but I'm not sure). The question was whether it was worth having anther guy look at it (the dealer) for additional money (and remember it was "minimum $99") to either come up with the same diagnosis or a different one. The advice here, I think, was sound to take it to the second guy and in the end I did not take that advice primarily out of an interest of time. The dealer wouldn't look at it for 48 hours and I had to have the car by next week for a trip to a family reunion. That's what probably made my mind up in the end.
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07/17/2009 03:10:42 PM · #21 |
I just had an experience with a mechanic which is a whole rant thread in itself but I won't go there.
Regarding dealers, I too am reluctant to go dealers anymore primarily for their institutional approach towards communication. If for no other reason, that is all.
I have my "guy" that I use and though he may not be the best, he is always forthright in what needs to be done to get me on my way. Sometimes its good and sometimes its not but he is ALWAYS willing to tell me how it is. That willingness has won my trust.
Cost is relevant but communication is more relevant.
That, IMO, is where dealers very often fall short. That and no other reason. Enough so to unfortunately damn the rest of them into much the same category. Is it wrong? Maybe. But it is what it is and likely due to the numbers they push through the service bays.
I'd say a majority of us have an "intimate codependency" with our vehicles. Unlike most other mechanical relationships, it takes good bedside manner on behalf of a mechanic to earn the right to intermingle.
Just my thought.
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07/17/2009 03:02:56 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by SteveJ:
What really puzzles me about this whole thread is your car breaks down and you, and others here, will avoid dealers and try to find a cheap alternative.
Why then, when your camera or lenses play up, do you send it/them back to Nikon/Canon etc?? Surely they charge comparable amounts for their work?
I'm puzzled:)) That's nothing new:) |
I don't think "cheap" actually played into the equation. "Trusted" is more important. The labor rates at Sandpiper are probably comparable to the dealer at about $90/hour.
How did you get price out of all this? and why's David bumping this thread? :) |
You mentioned it in the first couple of posts, one where it was going to cost $1400 and had already cost you $150, and that the dealer would charge you another $99? And also the continued references to hoping it would cost no more that $1400. I can't understand why there is a lack of trust for a dealer whose work is covered by Subaru, yet you are prepared to 'trust' an independent mechanic who has already admitted that he has no idea what the problem is? Surely the dealer diagnostics would have isolated the fault? |
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07/17/2009 02:52:51 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by SteveJ:
What really puzzles me about this whole thread is your car breaks down and you, and others here, will avoid dealers and try to find a cheap alternative.
Why then, when your camera or lenses play up, do you send it/them back to Nikon/Canon etc?? Surely they charge comparable amounts for their work?
I'm puzzled:)) That's nothing new:) |
I don't think "cheap" actually played into the equation. "Trusted" is more important. The labor rates at Sandpiper are probably comparable to the dealer at about $90/hour.
How did you get price out of all this? and why's David bumping this thread? :) |
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07/17/2009 02:43:53 PM · #24 |
What really puzzles me about this whole thread is your car breaks down and you, and others here, will avoid dealers and try to find a cheap alternative.
Why then, when your camera or lenses play up, do you send it/them back to Nikon/Canon etc?? Surely they charge comparable amounts for their work?
I'm puzzled:)) That's nothing new:) |
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07/17/2009 02:35:41 PM · #25 |
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