Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

04/10/2009 04:19:33 PM · #2001

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
I don't really CARE what the bible says. So yes, that was my rebuttal.

This is a much more honest response and one I actually respect more. It's your choice to take it or leave it and obviously there are lots of people who leave it. My only friendly advice is not to stick your neck out with statements about homosexuality and the Bible being "debunked" when you admit openly you don't know much about the Bible. In Rant it pays to play a tight game and only talk about stuff you really know about (at least on the factual side, we're all open to opinions).

That is the point. I've tried so many arguments being honest, open, and saying "lets put the bible aside and talk about this from a legal perspective" and it DOESN'T WORK. The minute I want to leave the Bible out I'm an idiot or a heathen and I get the explanation that the Bible is the "ultimate truth", life must circle around it, God's law is higher than man's law, and therefor it CANNOT be left out of the discussion. Basically I get into losing fights because the other side is "the Bible is right, I believe the Bible, so I'm right." The end.

So obviously I try to disprove their point with their own book and yet I still get sh*t all over because I don't think that way, never will. It's a losing battle.

I try to talk about stuff I know about and I'm immediately discredited for one reason or another. Did you SEE the massacre that occurred when I started a feminist debate? The word feminist got out there and soon I had psychos coming in yelling at me about being a "man hater" and there was no reasonable discussion to be had after that.

The same goes when I say I don't care what the bible says.

Ya, I can understand the frustration that must exist on both sides of that conversation. You are frustrated because the other person says "I believe the bible so I'm right." But of course you are saying, "I don't believe the Bible and so I'm right." which is frustrating to the other person. When you try to compromise and say, well, what's right for you is right for you and what's right for me is right for me you run into Moral Universalism and that compromise is rejected.

I'm not sure what to tell you. It's gonna be a fact of life.

No that's not what I say at all. I don't think I'm right because I don't believe the bible. I have had many debates with reasonable, thinking Christians who DO believe the bible but will ALSO take in new information. I guess I will call these people the "open-minded Christians". The kind that might not necessarily believe in evolution, but believe it's an option and don't condemn people to hell that believe it. Then there are the "close-minded Christians" and these are the ones I'm talking about. The theory that "the bible says A, it doesn't say B, anyone who believes B, is against God and is wrong, no matter WHAT evidence is brought to the table" There is no compromise with this mindset. I compromise all the time! I always say I don't mind what people's religion is, what their beliefs are. I DO believe religion can serve a good purpose, contrary to what

Bear_Music thinks I believe. I do not believe religion is all bull shit inherently. And I am not one of those people that believes only what I see in the natural world. I have explained this many times. I do think, however, religion is bull shit when its used to restrict people's rights without any basis in non-religious thinking.

For example ignorant people always say "Well if being gay is ok, why isn't pedophilia? They are both sins! Just because YOU think being gay is ok and pedophilia isn't ok doesn't make it true!" BUT if you take out the religious context what does it leave? A situation of 2 consenting adults, and a situation with a predator and a victim. Religion is NOT NEEDED to see that pedophilia is wrong. Therefor I don't mind when it is used to BACK UP an opinion about pedophilia. It is when it is the ONLY reason that it gets completely under my skin.

Same with creationism. I don't mind that people believe it. I'm not trying to shake anyone's beliefs away from them. I just don't want these people trying to take SCIENCE out of schools and replace it with faith. It doesn't belong there.

So the frustration from the other side you speak of in the context I spoke of (not all religious debates) is more like "I'm so right and you are going to hell. Dang, why can't this girl just blindly accept the fact that the Bible is 100% right according to my interpretation? Sheesh!"

04/10/2009 04:27:04 PM · #2002

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

The same goes when I say I don't care what the bible says.

yup, you are right. It is almost impossible to debate moral issues in this country without reference to the New Testament. But that is true to a lesser extent to the writings of the founding fathers, or The school of Aristotle, or a score of other books that make up the cultural cannon.

You are still young, try the Bible again. Read the Koran. Heck toss in the TaoTeChing and the Talmud. They may not be the direct word of God, but they are the basis of understanding which shapes our world. Next time you are in a book store check out the NIV Bible. It has a ton of footnotes and commenetary to try to make clear what the writings are about. If you still can't take it, try again in 5 years. Jews arent supposed to read the Talmud till they are 45 years old.

This is what I did when I was her age, actually. Bible, Talmud, Koran, even the Book of Mormon, plus the Tao, the Greek philosophers, and thye more modern philosophers. It seemed to me if I wanted to understand the issues that face us currently ("us" being western civilization) I needed to understand the moral/ethical underpinnings of the various flavors of civilization and religious thought, or at least be familiar with them. Best couple years I ever spent, inh many ways, from a growth-to-maturity point of view.

I have a hard time understanding people who essentially debunk all religions as nonsense without taking the time to study any of them critically, given that it is these religious urges that have driven the growth of civilizations and empires since time immemorial. How curiously short-sighted :-)

R.

As I said in my reply to Doc, I don't debunk all religions as nonsense, only in the framework of a social rights debate where religion is used as the be all, end all to any thoughtful discussion. Am I religious? No. Do I think that science can explain everything and only what I see exists? No. I have my own "supernatural" beliefs. What I think is nonsense is the dogma and unchangable beliefs based on presumed interpretations of the supposed word of God that creates intolerance in his name. People like the ones that carry signs saying "God loves dead gay soldiers". AND YES, I know they do not speak for the majority. But if no one stops them, maybe one day they could. Hatred spreads like a plague without someone pushing back against it. Worse things have happened in just as "civilized" societies.

I don't think my age has anything to do with it. I read a lot of informative books about body language, life, philosophy, creativity, intuition, many aspects of psychology and the human brain, and the occasional "new age" books as well. I went through a phase when I was even younger of trying to find out what religion fit, researching Buddhism, Judaism, and a few others and I came to the conclusion that I much prefer piecing it all together for myself instead of getting theories on life handed to me in on package.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/10/2009 04:34:27 PM · #2003

To be honest Monica, your beliefs seem very helter skelter. You choose what you want to believe based on your gut instinct and it seems to vary based on the situation. It's hard to have a conversation about that because it's like nailing Jell-O to the wall. There are lots of people who have put a lot of thought into their worldview and their positions are much more solid and steadfast. It's unfair to disparage them merely because they are resolute while you are fluid.

We can all agree that hate is not the answer. I get annoyed with people like that no matter their position (I wrote an essay a number of years ago called "Carpet Bombing for God" about anti-abortion protests). But it isn't hate to stand up and say, "I think what you are doing is wrong." It can be said hatefully, for sure. However it can be said with love and these motivations are what is important at the end of the day.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/10/2009 05:15:29 PM · #2004

Originally posted by escapetooz:

I don't think my age has anything to do with it.

Really? Were you as capable of abstract reasoning based upon life experience today as your were at twelve? Given you lively intellect and evident passion for life, will you not think differently, be differently when you are fourty six than you do today? I know a few folks in their fourties who still play at being twenty, but they just seem sad to me. I would have been miserable if at twenty I had a wife, a kid and a mortgage, but it suits me fine today.

Its not a knock on you to say that I believe you think a certain way, or have certain likes and dislikes because you are a certain age, life is supposed to be a journey and where you are on that path shapes who you are.

As far a piecing together a personal cosmology for yourself rather than having one handed to you, I would agree, that suits me as well. But don't cut yourself off from some areas of learning just because that piece of intellectual real estate is claimed by people who you disagree with.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/10/2009 05:54:46 PM · #2005

Originally posted by escapetooz:

The same goes when I say I don't care what the bible says.

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

yup, you are right. It is almost impossible to debate moral issues in this country without reference to the New Testament. But that is true to a lesser extent to the writings of the founding fathers, or The school of Aristotle, or a score of other books that make up the cultural cannon.

You are still young, try the Bible again. Read the Koran. Heck toss in the TaoTeChing and the Talmud. They may not be the direct word of God, but they are the basis of understanding which shapes our world. Next time you are in a book store check out the NIV Bible. It has a ton of footnotes and commenetary to try to make clear what the writings are about. If you still can't take it, try again in 5 years. Jews arent supposed to read the Talmud till they are 45 years old.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

This is what I did when I was her age, actually. Bible, Talmud, Koran, even the Book of Mormon, plus the Tao, the Greek philosophers, and thye more modern philosophers. It seemed to me if I wanted to understand the issues that face us currently ("us" being western civilization) I needed to understand the moral/ethical underpinnings of the various flavors of civilization and religious thought, or at least be familiar with them. Best couple years I ever spent, inh many ways, from a growth-to-maturity point of view.

I have a hard time understanding people who essentially debunk all religions as nonsense without taking the time to study any of them critically, given that it is these religious urges that have driven the growth of civilizations and empires since time immemorial. How curiously short-sighted :-)

R.

Okay......and we circle back around......

I don't feel I have to read the Bible to know what is decent and moral within the social framework I live in.....I am NOT a kid any more, so I have been around long enough that I have a good idea that Jesus as represented to us by people who wrote about him starting a half century after his death stood for good and decent behavior to and by each other. I have also stated before trhat I think Jesus would be appalled that we deify him when what he was trying to teach us was how to be.

Obviously, I have much to learn about the Bible, but once again, I'm back to.....whose version do I believe?

I really do NOT buy it that you have to have biblical knowledge to have a good set of morals......my wonderful atheist friend has shown me that. And to discount him as an intensely moral, and decent man would be just plain wrong.

I also object to telling Monica to get some education and experience in this instance for the same reasons I'm at a loss about......you want to advise her, then fine.....WHICH version is the right one? Which is incontrovertible and has unilateral acceptance? Which is THE answer????????

That's the thing.....the parties here probably won't be able to agree, so what's a body to do if they don't feel like slogging through what is essentially rules to live for the year 50?

I think there is a ton of relevant allegorical examples and much food for thought, but to state that a Bible that I can go lay my hands on in a bookstore or library is THE WORD is ludicrous. That falls into teh category of opinion and/or belief.

Not that it's wrong, but there needs to be the same perspective when putting forth a Bible as a good source for the Christian belief, but not the be-all to end all.

Does this have some merit?

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/10/2009 06:16:36 PM · #2006

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I also object to telling Monica to get some education and experience in this instance for the same reasons I'm at a loss about......you want to advise her, then fine.....WHICH version is the right one? Which is incontrovertible and has unilateral acceptance? Which is THE answer????????

If I came off that way then I apologize. I was just trying to share some thoughts, and If I came off like I was trying to reveal some grand truth or browbeat Monica then please believe that it was not my intention. I don't have any answers, just may be a few questions that I think might have some value. I'll shut up now.

04/10/2009 06:21:29 PM · #2007

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

I don't think my age has anything to do with it.

Really? Were you as capable of abstract reasoning based upon life experience today as your were at twelve? Given you lively intellect and evident passion for life, will you not think differently, be differently when you are fourty six than you do today? I know a few folks in their fourties who still play at being twenty, but they just seem sad to me. I would have been miserable if at twenty I had a wife, a kid and a mortgage, but it suits me fine today.

Its not a knock on you to say that I believe you think a certain way, or have certain likes and dislikes because you are a certain age, life is supposed to be a journey and where you are on that path shapes who you are.

As far a piecing together a personal cosmology for yourself rather than having one handed to you, I would agree, that suits me as well. But don't cut yourself off from some areas of learning just because that piece of intellectual real estate is claimed by people who you disagree with.

Wowow. That is NOT what I said. You are jumping to conclusions. Of course I'm going to grow and become a different person as I get older. I just don't think the bible is going to get any more believable to me as I get older. I have never been religious. Have I gone through different phases? Sure. My mom is very new age oriented but also was raised Catholic so she has an array of different odd beliefs, as a kid I kind of followed along with what she believed but never fully believed it. At about 12 I got really rebellious and thought I was a complete and total atheist, didn't believe in anything supernatural, etc. And now I think I've bounced back from that angst and have changed A LOT.

I can agree with the last paragraph completely but I have to tell you, BEFORE I went completely atheist, I tried. I went to several different churches with my friends who were all trying to "save" me, and every time I thought I started to like one something would get me, turn me off to it. Even the non-denominational church just didn't feel right. And that was it. I am not going to miraculously become Christian one day. Does the Bible have some lessons that could be learned from? Sure, I've admitted this before. But I don't think they are lessons that cannot be learned elsewhere, so I don't think I'm going to have any sort of deficit in my growth if I never read it cover to cover.

ETA: I was also the kind of kid who read for days at a time, sat and thought about existence for hours at a time. Sat and thought about what "nothing" could mean, sat and thought about God, guardian angels, spirits, for hours. Sat and thought about the vastness of the universe. At 12 I think I was a pretty logical being trapped in the body of a late bloomer who hung out with kids younger then here and therefor seemed "immature".

Message edited by author 2009-04-10 18:28:59.

04/10/2009 06:33:07 PM · #2008

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Does the Bible have some lessons that could be learned from?

These are sort of rhetorical questions, but how do you know which lessons are worth learning and which are not? And if you use your own feelings to determine this, doesn't that indicate you knew the lesson already? Are there lessons worth learning that are difficult to learn or seem wrong before you learn them?

I have some of this issue with Jeb too and others that like to hunt and peck through various religious texts for truth. It just doesn't make too much sense to me. You probably hit it on the head when you said there are no lessons in the Bible that can't be learned elsewhere, because my feeling is the "lessons" are merely precepts that agree and reinforce your already held beliefs.

04/10/2009 06:44:01 PM · #2009

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Helter skelter? What does that even mean?

Is not life based on situations? I don't see why you have an issue with me choosing what I want to believe based on the situation? Don't you? If you were in a different situation do you think you would be Christian? What if you lived in a tribe in the jungles of Brazil? What if you were born in India? You being you, doesn't automatically give you your beliefs on a silver platter. You got your beliefs the same way I did. Your situation, your life experiences, the time in history and the place you were born.

And why would you want to nail jello to a wall? Can't it just be jello and live as jello in peace? I'm pretty glad I can't be nailed to a wall.

Just because someone's worldview is steadfast doesn't mean they've necessarily put any more thought into it than a someone with a "wiggly" worldview like me. I put a lot of thought into life and my world view. Have since I was a child. There are plenty of people on both ends that don't think much about it at all. It seems it's either, the Bible is the truth and God is the only way, or that the natural world is the only way. Are you trying to say that because I'm more fluid and don't fit into either box I'm more annoying that the steadfast people on either end of the spectrum? That IS something.

"It's unfair to disparage them merely because they are resolute while you are fluid."

Reverse that and I say the same to you.

I completely agree that motivations are important. That's why when I had friends that said "I don't want to go to heaven without you" I took what they said with a grain of salt and let it slide off my back, but when I had a friend that said "Gays are possessed by the devil" I did NOT let that slide.

04/10/2009 06:47:12 PM · #2010

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
Does the Bible have some lessons that could be learned from?

These are sort of rhetorical questions, but how do you know which lessons are worth learning and which are not? And if you use your own feelings to determine this, doesn't that indicate you knew the lesson already? Are there lessons worth learning that are difficult to learn or seem wrong before you learn them?

I have some of this issue with Jeb too and others that like to hunt and peck through various religious texts for truth. It just doesn't make too much sense to me. You probably hit it on the head when you said there are no lessons in the Bible that can't be learned elsewhere, because my feeling is the "lessons" are merely precepts that agree and reinforce your already held beliefs.

How do YOU know which lessons are worth learning? That's life. It's called filtering. If we didn't do it our brains would be so full of crap we wouldn't be able to function. I don't understand how you are making any points that don't also apply to yourself and every other person on the planet.

04/10/2009 07:24:23 PM · #2011

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

I didn't mean that to come across like I thought you were browbeating her......just that I found her age irrelevant to the issue at hand which is regardless of Monica's youth, or my 53 years, how are either of us supposed to know what to read because Christians have so many versions, and differences amongst themselves.

Now I know that you're going to say that the basics are the same, but as an example, as I understand it, Christians aren't all on the same page about the Rapture.

Really, I'd love it if there were something that I could study that both is somewhat general, and mutually agreed upon that would be accepted as an informational guide for lay people who are curious as to what the basics actually are.

Personally, I'd rather slit my wrists than try to slog through, and understand a lot of the heavy stuff I've seen in Bibles over the years.....and I can read Michener.....8>)

PLEASE do not bail on this conversation; it's going much better than it has in the past.

04/10/2009 07:36:35 PM · #2012

Originally posted by escapetooz:

I have the grounding of Scripture and my faith. Now does that mean I don't evaluate, adjust and adapt? No. But having a reference point makes it more likely for me to learn the difficult or inconvenient lessons. I cannot flit from flower to flower taking only what feels good and moving on as soon as I run into something that makes me uncomfortable. The Bible, and my faith, for better or worse, is the foundation of my life. I have chosen this fate and I will stand by it even though the world changes about me.

In Christ alone my hope is found;
He is my light, my strength, my song;
This cornerstone, this solid ground,
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm.
What heights of love, what depths of peace,
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease!
My comforter, my all in allâ��
Here in the love of Christ I stand.

No guilt in life, no fear in deathâ��
This is the pow'r of Christ in me;
From life's first cry to final breath,
Jesus commands my destiny.
No pow'r of hell, no scheme of man,
Can ever pluck me from His hand;
Till He returns or calls me homeâ��
Here in the pow'r of Christ I'll stand.

04/10/2009 07:39:03 PM · #2013

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Really, I'd love it if there were something that I could study that both is somewhat general, and mutually agreed upon that would be accepted as an informational guide for lay people who are curious as to what the basics actually are.

If you can work through his proper English, I cannot recommend enough Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. It is very "unflavored" and it does a good job of describing Christianity minus all the fluff.

You can even find the text for free here. If you really want to just hit the Cliff's notes you can look at Book II which is "What Christians believe". You can find it maybe 1/3rd of the way down the text.

Message edited by author 2009-04-10 19:42:07.

04/10/2009 07:42:58 PM · #2014

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Does the Bible have some lessons that could be learned from?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

These are sort of rhetorical questions, but how do you know which lessons are worth learning and which are not? And if you use your own feelings to determine this, doesn't that indicate you knew the lesson already? Are there lessons worth learning that are difficult to learn or seem wrong before you learn them?

I have some of this issue with Jeb too and others that like to hunt and peck through various religious texts for truth. It just doesn't make too much sense to me. You probably hit it on the head when you said there are no lessons in the Bible that can't be learned elsewhere, because my feeling is the "lessons" are merely precepts that agree and reinforce your already held beliefs.

The part that I bolded is the question I have been asking through this and other threads, and it always seems to get taken as an affront, and dismissed as impertinent rather than as genuine.

I'm not talking about here as much as in real life, but amongst some of the more extreme members here, like Flash, RonB, and one or two others, I just get the feeling that I will always be considered as lesser if I don't see it their way, which is precisely what Monica is saying, thirty years earlier in her life, from a completely different background than I, yet our stance seems remarkably similar.

04/10/2009 07:46:58 PM · #2015

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Just because someone's worldview is steadfast doesn't mean they've necessarily put any more thought into it than a someone with a "wiggly" worldview like me. I put a lot of thought into life and my world view. Have since I was a child. There are plenty of people on both ends that don't think much about it at all. It seems it's either, the Bible is the truth and God is the only way, or that the natural world is the only way. Are you trying to say that because I'm more fluid and don't fit into either box I'm more annoying that the steadfast people on either end of the spectrum? That IS something.

Funny this.....

The older I get and the more I learn, the more I realize how little is finite and that to be fluid and open for the next lesson that's going to set you back on your heels is a good thing.

04/10/2009 07:49:18 PM · #2016

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
How do YOU know which lessons are worth learning? That's life. It's called filtering. If we didn't do it our brains would be so full of crap we wouldn't be able to function. I don't understand how you are making any points that don't also apply to yourself and every other person on the planet.

I have the grounding of Scripture and my faith. Now does that mean I don't evaluate, adjust and adapt? No. But having a reference point makes it more likely for me to learn the difficult or inconvenient lessons. I cannot flit from flower to flower taking only what feels good and moving on as soon as I run into something that makes me uncomfortable. The Bible, and my faith, for better or worse, is the foundation of my life. I have chosen this fate and I will stand by it even though the world changes about me.

Wow... that's um wow. Really insulting. Having the Bible does NOT make you more likely to learn life lessons. How does that even follow? Learning lessons is called openness to new experiences and any one of any religion can have that or not or somewhere in between. Again I ask, how are you different than me? Because you are MORE stubborn? That isn't a virtue.

I don't flit around on flowers. And if I did, boy wouldn't that be a lovely existence. Don't sit there where ever you are in your anonymous computer world and presume to tell me I don't learn lessons that make me uncomfortable. You have NO idea what I've been through in my life. I have had a lot of hard lessons that only made my views stronger. Believing in situational ethics does NOT mean I'm some air headed hippie stereotype flaking around different situations and avoiding anything that is "uncomfortable". If I did that I sure as hell wouldn't be talking to you. Because your views make me EXTREMELY uncomfortable.

I'll use your words AGAIN to aid my point AGAIN:

"It's unfair to disparage me merely because I am fluid while you are resolute."

I am simply appalled at the things you have said.

Taking the Bible "for better or for worse" is STILL you CHOOSING which lessons are worth learning. Just because you line your choices up with what you think the Bible is telling you, doesn't make you any more virtuous than someone who lines themselves up with what fits their world view. In other words, you chose the "one size fits all" option for your entire wardrobe while I am still looking around picking each piece carefully. In the end, either one of us could be better dressed. That is a matter of opinion. Why are you making fun of my shopping style?

04/10/2009 07:51:19 PM · #2017

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You're making a horrible assumption that people like Monica and I flit away the second that something becomes uncomfortable. Nothing could be further from the truth. What we find, and I'm assuming you share this Monica, is that when WE ask the uncomfortable questions, when we want to discover more, the feet dig in, the "Well, because that's the way it is, it's God." scenarios come out, and the discussion is shut down.

So then those of us who ask are left with the choice, unfulfilling that it is, of just accepting that view, or to move away, labeled as heretics, to try once again to find someone who will answer us.

04/10/2009 07:52:53 PM · #2018

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
Just because someone's worldview is steadfast doesn't mean they've necessarily put any more thought into it than a someone with a "wiggly" worldview like me. I put a lot of thought into life and my world view. Have since I was a child. There are plenty of people on both ends that don't think much about it at all. It seems it's either, the Bible is the truth and God is the only way, or that the natural world is the only way. Are you trying to say that because I'm more fluid and don't fit into either box I'm more annoying that the steadfast people on either end of the spectrum? That IS something.

Funny this.....

The older I get and the more I learn, the more I realize how little is finite and that to be fluid and open for the next lesson that's going to set you back on your heels is a good thing.

I would like to thank you for stepping in when I feel backed in a corner here. I don't understand why you can say these kinds of things and get away with it but somehow when I do I get my age brought up, and then as we just saw now apparently I'm flitting around on flowers? Perhaps I don't express myself as clearly as others, perhaps I go off on tangents and "reveal" too much, but that's who I am. I'm honest. I don't think my points are not valid because I'm a young female. It seems every debate I get into comes down to personal attacks on my character.

I am very disappointed.

04/10/2009 07:57:05 PM · #2019

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I have the grounding of Scripture and my faith. Now does that mean I don't evaluate, adjust and adapt? No. But having a reference point makes it more likely for me to learn the difficult or inconvenient lessons. I cannot flit from flower to flower taking only what feels good and moving on as soon as I run into something that makes me uncomfortable. The Bible, and my faith, for better or worse, is the foundation of my life. I have chosen this fate and I will stand by it even though the world changes about me.

You're making a horrible assumption that people like Monica and I flit away the second that something becomes uncomfortable. Nothing could be further from the truth. What we find, and I'm assuming you share this Monica, is that when WE ask the uncomfortable questions, when we want to discover more, the feet dig in, the "Well, because that's the way it is, it's God." scenarios come out, and the discussion is shut down.

So then those of us who ask are left with the choice, unfulfilling that it is, of just accepting that view, or to move away, labeled as heretics, to try once again to find someone who will answer us.

Well put. Thank you.

04/10/2009 08:14:44 PM · #2020

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

You're making a horrible assumption that people like Monica and I flit away the second that something becomes uncomfortable.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

I went to several different churches with my friends who were all trying to "save" me, and every time I thought I started to like one something would get me, turn me off to it.

Can you see why I may have this impression?

As far as tough questions go, believe me, I ask lots of those in Church. So far nobody has kicked me out.

Message edited by author 2009-04-10 20:19:17.

04/10/2009 08:23:08 PM · #2021

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

You're making a horrible assumption that people like Monica and I flit away the second that something becomes uncomfortable.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

I went to several different churches with my friends who were all trying to "save" me, and every time I thought I started to like one something would get me, turn me off to it.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Can you see why I may have this impression?

As far as tough questions go, believe me, I ask lots of those in Church. So far nobody has kicked me out.

Yes, but you ask them in YOUR church, where you're already a member of the family, and you've been accepted. It's very hard to go to a strange church and ask people questions that make them uncomfortable. Like it or not, it's fairly common for a stranger to become unpopular if they don't show the requisite respect and deference to the heirarchy.

At least this has been my experience......and not just at one church, either.

ETA: All too often that "something" that turns ME off to a denomination/congregation is a deal-breaker for them if I don't go their way.

Message edited by author 2009-04-10 20:24:26.

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

04/10/2009 08:26:31 PM · #2022

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I've only been going to my church for six months due to my move. But certainly I know the ins-and-outs of things so I know where I'm safe to ask tough question and where I'm not. That's probably an advantage.

Message edited by author 2009-04-10 20:26:45.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

04/10/2009 08:28:44 PM · #2023

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Yes, but you ask them in YOUR church, where you're already a member of the family, and you've been accepted. It's very hard to go to a strange church and ask people questions that make them uncomfortable. Like it or not, it's fairly common for a stranger to become unpopular if they don't show the requisite respect and deference to the heirarchy.

At least this has been my experience......and not just at one church, either.

ETA: All too often that "something" that turns ME off to a denomination/congregation is a deal-breaker for them if I don't go their way.

I've only been going to my church for six months due to my move. But certainly I know the ins-and-outs of things so I know where I'm safe to ask tough question and where I'm not. That's probably an advantage.

The fact that you have to, pardon the expression, pussy-foot around with your questions should be a big flag in and of itself, shouldn't it? No?

04/10/2009 08:35:14 PM · #2024

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Well....I know this may come as a shock to you, but tact is not always my strongest suit.