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04/02/2009 07:17:15 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The student of the history of Jesus is, from the point of view of textual criticism, on vastly safer ground than the student of the life of Julius Caesar or indeed of any other figure of ancient history.
And Moreland adds [More.ScCy, 136]: |
Julius Caesar was compulsive about having his histories written during his campaigns, and he was from his birth to his death a figure of historical relevance and he published his narratives on a yearly basis. Thousands of copies were made during his lifetime.
We don't have any stories of what Jesus did for most of his life. I know what Julius Caesar did between the ages of five and twenty five, I have no idea what Jesus Christ did in those same years.
The New Testament is a collection of 27 books collected and compiled between 45 A.D. and four hundred years later. Much of the gospels were part of an oral tradition for centuries before being put on the page. I am not saying that oral tradition cannot be accurate, in a pre literate society people were much better at recalling great stories with little if any error from teller to teller than we can imaging today, but to say that the history of Jesus is on vastly safer ground than the student of the life of Julius Caesar is just factually wrong. |
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04/02/2009 07:34:59 PM · #77 |
I am not a Bible scholar, however logic would dictate the fallicy of these statements from the essay linked:
"restored to what was originally written by Luke, according to the textual critics"
"and as we have seen, my NIV has gotten back to the original text"
If the originals are lost, how can anyone state that they know with certainty what they contained? I do not believe that The Iliad as read today is exactly as it was originally penned, nor that the life of Julius Caesar is exactly represented. However, no one is saying either of those texts are to be used to determine the way to get to Heaven.
We can say we believe there are no important changes in the NT or that the overall message is as originated, but we can never be 100% sure.
Even if we discount this argument and assume we can get back to the original text, I still have a problem with the various interpretations from differing denominations. I have been told to research each denomination and choose the one that most closely fits what I believe, but that seems too much like shopping for a car. Not my idea of finding the truth! |
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04/02/2009 07:38:56 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
but then you make a huge assertion that basically Christianity is based on nothing. |
Maybe you misheard or just wanted to put words in his mouth Doc. I didn't hear your statement above. I think maybe you're contributing to the noise now. :) |
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04/02/2009 07:43:24 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I am not saying that oral tradition cannot be accurate, in a pre literate society people were much better at recalling great stories with little if any error from teller to teller than we can imaging today, but to say that the history of Jesus is on vastly safer ground than the student of the life of Julius Caesar is just factually wrong. |
You left out the clause "from the point of textual criticism" which probably makes all the difference in the world. From that point of view you have no idea what Julius Caesar did from the ages of 5 to 25. At least if you are going to doubt the textual accuracy of the New Testament then you must, likewise, cast even more doubt on the textual accuracy of the history of Julius Caesar. You can't have it both ways.
Message edited by author 2009-04-02 19:53:26. |
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04/02/2009 07:52:01 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
but then you make a huge assertion that basically Christianity is based on nothing. |
Maybe you misheard or just wanted to put words in his mouth Doc. I didn't hear your statement above. I think maybe you're contributing to the noise now. :) |
I was reacting to this statement: "There simply isn't independent, accurate documantation for so much of what must be taken on faith to be a good and true Christian for a logical mind to qwrap around."
I don't think I hyperbolized his statement too much.
Message edited by author 2009-04-02 19:52:46. |
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04/02/2009 08:18:03 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
First you say you aren't an expert because it would take too much of your time, but then you make a huge assertion that basically Christianity is based on nothing. |
That twists the context of what I said so badly it's ridiculous.
One: I said that I do not have the time, inclination, knowledge or experience to debate the faithful......nor would I aspire to do so.
My only assertion on Christianity is that it seems to be solely based on ONE extraordinarily controversial publication which scholars and teh faithful cannot agree upon.
So how the heck would someone like me be able to sift through it?
You can talk about base concepts and values, and refute that some of the controversy surrounds parts that don't change the main theme, BUT......there are all too many like Fred Phelps' lot who do just what it is that I'm talking about.
Then you have people like the Bakkers and Jimmy Swaggert, who like it or not, speak for Christians.
Why should I believe you over Pat Robertson?
The only point I'm trying to make is that I do have a reasonably decent grasp on what is good and decent, but it sure would be tough for me to try to decide what path I would want to take if I decided that I needed one to follow and I wanted to find the "Best" group of Christians to lead me.
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04/02/2009 08:23:14 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I am not saying that oral tradition cannot be accurate, in a pre literate society people were much better at recalling great stories with little if any error from teller to teller than we can imaging today, but to say that the history of Jesus is on vastly safer ground than the student of the life of Julius Caesar is just factually wrong. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You left out the clause "from the point of textual criticism" which probably makes all the difference in the world. From that point of view you have no idea what Julius Caesar did from the ages of 5 to 25. At least if you are going to doubt the textual accuracy of the New Testament then you must, likewise, cast even more doubt on the textual accuracy of the history of Julius Caesar. You can't have it both ways. |
You're making the case for doubting the veracity of biblical translation.
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04/02/2009 08:30:19 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You left out the clause "from the point of textual criticism" which probably makes all the difference in the world. From that point of view you have no idea what Julius Caesar did from the ages of 5 to 25. At least if you are going to doubt the textual accuracy of the New Testament then you must, likewise, cast even more doubt on the textual accuracy of the history of Julius Caesar. You can't have it both ways. |
I did not use that term because it is being used to artificially slant the argument. Yes, vastly more contemporary source material existed on Caesar than Christ, so the error parsing filter that is the arcane field of "textural criticism" finds more errors. It is no more a loadstone to truth than semiotics or Jungian analysis. If you can use it to prove to yourself that we don't know what Caesar did in his early life, then you can use it to invalidate any and all of our written history. Wrong tool for the job.
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04/02/2009 08:31:37 PM · #84 |
Well, for me, I will try to be the best I can according to my understanding of the Holy Scripture and on judgement day when The Lord asks why so many chose to worship in a house that did not carry the name of His Son who gave His life for me, I had rather not be among them.
Now, I don't think we will be required to know and understand everything in the Scripture but, we have been instructed to study, to show ourselves approved to Him.
Anyways, God bless ya. |
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04/02/2009 09:29:54 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Then you have people like the Bakkers and Jimmy Swaggert, who like it or not, speak for Christians.
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They may claim to speak for Christians. They don't speak for me, and, at best, they speak for a minority of Christians. Others may decide that they are "representative" of all Christians, but that would be a mistake.
Message edited by author 2009-04-02 21:32:51. |
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04/02/2009 09:37:28 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Yes, vastly more contemporary source material existed on Caesar than Christ... |
Wait. I need more info here because honestly I would have said it was exactly opposite. Can you give me an idea of how many source documents we have about Caesar and how contemporary extant copies actually are (I assume by "contemporary" you mean "written at the time of Caesar")? I did some searching for this but I couldn't come up with much. It sounds like you know. |
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04/02/2009 11:14:22 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Then you have people like the Bakkers and Jimmy Swaggert, who like it or not, speak for Christians. |
Originally posted by chromeydome:
They may claim to speak for Christians. They don't speak for me, and, at best, they speak for a minority of Christians. Others may decide that they are "representative" of all Christians, but that would be a mistake. |
But that's the point......they've made a half-zillion dollars spewing their crap, and people *DO* buy into it.
To you or I, how is this possible, yet they made the big time.
That's what I find so sad......these people flagrantly abuse Christianity for their own sick agendas.
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04/02/2009 11:18:28 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's what I find so sad......these people flagrantly abuse Christianity for their own sick agendas. |
We can all agree with that bruthuh! |
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04/02/2009 11:30:33 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's what I find so sad......these people flagrantly abuse Christianity for their own sick agendas. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
We can all agree with that bruthuh! |
Why do people fall for their scams?
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04/02/2009 11:38:48 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's what I find so sad......these people flagrantly abuse Christianity for their own sick agendas. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
We can all agree with that bruthuh! |
Why do people fall for their scams? |
Desperation, hope, fear, ignorance...
Pretty much the same reasons people get into belief systems in the first place, only on a less positive scale. |
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04/03/2009 01:09:24 AM · #91 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's what I find so sad......these people flagrantly abuse Christianity for their own sick agendas. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
We can all agree with that bruthuh! |
Why do people fall for their scams? |
They certainly don't speak for me, they don't speak for many people. They use religion as a tool to control others. Some promise healing, other promise riches, and most of it (If not all) is a scam. People, even good people, still fall for scams unfortunately. They extend their faith too far due to dire circumstances. That's how they get rich. And the rich religious leaders do not only exist in the 'Christian' world.
Here are a few areas that confuse me when it comes to Christianity that I hope someone can chime in on:
- The death penalty: I was for it as a kid believing that a person should suffer as they made others suffer. Now, I see it differently (The only one in my family who does). While the sin of murder is something that should be met with punishment, I do not believe that it is within the power of man to take an individuals life. God did not say "Thou shalt not kill...unless the person killed first and you plan on executing him/her." Prison is suppose to be about rehabilitation. While a person might want blood for blood, I've come to believe that the only real way to end the suffering of losing a loved one to murder is to come face to face with that person and to forgive him/her. This may take years or a lifetime. You may have to be on your knees night after night asking for that strength. In the end though, when you've released that hate you've stopped the growth of that darkness in your heart and allowed room for love. Sounds corny to some maybe, but I really believe that. (A friend of mine was just divorced. She got her "I want a divorce" via email. All nasty details aside, I told her the only way she will truly be happy again is when she's learned to forgive her ex.) I stand by that, but I see many Christians on the news supporting the death penalty and wonder why?
- Abortion: This is a gray area for me. I don't know that it is murder, I don't know that life has really begun and that God has blessed the child-to-be with a soul. As a man, how can I say "I don't believe your 14yr old daughter should be allowed to stop the process of bringing a baby into this world." Unless science has a way of detecting whether or not a being has a soul or not, I can't say with 100 percent accuracy that He thinks it's wrong. Abortion is an unfortunate reality of our times. Without it how many more kids would there be in foster care homes?
- Gay rights/marriage: Let me be frank and say that if it was a choice, then the entire gay community has got me fooled. If they had a choice and I meet my maker and He says "Why did you support the 'gay agenda'?" I can only answer by asking "How did they fool me...did they have secret meetings I was unaware of?" I really can't believe that people are willing to put so much effort into stopping gays from having equal rights when only decades ago women were fighting for their rights, and African Americans for their rights, to be seen as equals. Is it possible that God put the gay community here so that the heterosexual community who are overpopulating our foster care homes with 'unwanted' kids, could have another option; to have their kids live with 2 loving parents who would raise the child to be a productive member of society without the bigotry still instilled in many of us? I wish I knew because this issue in particular is one I struggle with. I have gay friends, I see the love they have for their partner, I can't see how God could not bless the love between 2 people, man or woman, when that love can be so much stronger and powerful than many of the hetero relationships. |
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04/03/2009 09:26:17 AM · #92 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
They use religion as a tool to control others. |
Religion has always, from the very beginning, been a "social tool", the purpose of which, primarily, is to control or shape a population. I am NOT saying this in a negative way, but it's nevertheless a fact.
R.
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04/03/2009 10:10:24 AM · #93 |
- The death penalty:
- Abortion:
- Gay rights/marriage:
O.K., I'll speak to these a bit-
Death penalty: God gave the Israelites some stern rules to follow while they were wandering around in the desert. Yes, he said, "Thou shalt not kill." I think in context with His further instructions we might more likely translate that as "Thou shalt not murder". He specifically instructed them to execute murderers. Not as punishment, but to teach the whole society the value of the life taken, and to remove that cancerous influence. Personally, I can agree with that. If we refuse to exact a huge cost for taking a life, then life becomes cheap...as it has in our society at this time. It costs nothing but "freedom", and that cost now also comes with three squares, clothing, medical & dental and color TV. It should cost a man, or woman, EVERYTHING to take a human life. The value of a single life is immense, and we cheapen it if taking one costs next to nothing. And I think that is a Christian point of view.
Abortion: I think God hates it. I think He created us, as above, with tremendous value, actually and potentially. I understand how pregnancy to some might be a terrible thing, and wouldn't condemn...but...when abortion for convenience is common, I think God is saddened and outraged. And I think that is another way society as a whole is cheapening the value of human life. Can't be burdened with another kid? Might have to cut back on comfort, conveniences, and vacations? See the man. I don't mean to condemn, as I'm sure there are "some" situations that "might" call for an abortion. But I also think the vast majority of cases are convenience oriented.
Gay marriage: Christians have a duty to speak out about what God has to say...then let people alone to do as they will. Do I think gay marriage is "right"? Not really. But then, do I think the state having ANY say over affairs of the heart, or religion, or private matters that harm no one, is right? Not at all. I'm not really settled on a position on this issue, but lean toward liberty and personal responsibilty a lot.
As Christians I think we narrowly choose things to condemn people over, then wink at the other things that "God hath said". It's not right to condemn homosexuality, then gloss over adultery, theft, greed, pride, and the myriad other sins of the heart that God has pointed out to us. "You that preach 'thou shalt not commit adultery', do you steal?" "Let him that is without sin be the first to cast a stone."
Peace
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04/03/2009 11:21:11 AM · #94 |
The good news heavyj is that all three of those issues fall into the opinion pile. There are intelligent Christians that fall on both sides of each issue. Frankly your motivations for holding each opinion are more important than the opinion themselves. Also, be aware that even though the Christian Right has seemingly hijacked our faith for political gain, not everybody walks that line. Personally I would consider myself to the left of center and my faith is the central, most imporant part of my life.
I don't need to go into all three of your issues but I'll tell you I echo your feelings on many. I'm very against the death penalty. I'm generally against both abortion and gay "marriage" but understand both are very complex issues and are far from black/white or pro/anti.
Message edited by author 2009-04-03 11:21:32. |
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04/03/2009 12:57:49 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
They certainly don't speak for me, they don't speak for many people. They use religion as a tool to control others. Some promise healing, other promise riches, and most of it (If not all) is a scam. People, even good people, still fall for scams unfortunately. They extend their faith too far due to dire circumstances. That's how they get rich. And the rich religious leaders do not only exist in the 'Christian' world. |
Unfortunately, this hearkens back to some of my original issues with wondering who to believe. Though I consider myself smart enough not to be taken in by charlatans like the Swaggarts & Bakkers in this world, good and decent, albeit naive, people DO get drawn in, and taken advantage of all too often.
But for me, then I have to look at the Presbyterians from my local area whom I worked side by side in the Chorti village in Honduras who were some of the kindest and most decent people I've ever met. What about them? Do they have a pipeline to God? Are they doing it right?
Decisions of faith are really tough for us humanoids because there is much good among the religions of the world.......but the human factor is always in the mix. I remember a few years back I was attending an evangelical free church that had a terrific minister......he was an inspiration, and a warm and loving man. But something political happened, and overnight he became persona non grata and was basically run off. That really shocked and stunned me most of all from the aspect of having seen this man being respected, admired, and followed for the better part of a decade.
Originally posted by heavyj:
Here are a few areas that confuse me when it comes to Christianity that I hope someone can chime in on:
- The death penalty: I was for it as a kid believing that a person should suffer as they made others suffer. Now, I see it differently (The only one in my family who does). While the sin of murder is something that should be met with punishment, I do not believe that it is within the power of man to take an individuals life. God did not say "Thou shalt not kill...unless the person killed first and you plan on executing him/her." Prison is suppose to be about rehabilitation. While a person might want blood for blood, I've come to believe that the only real way to end the suffering of losing a loved one to murder is to come face to face with that person and to forgive him/her. This may take years or a lifetime. You may have to be on your knees night after night asking for that strength. In the end though, when you've released that hate you've stopped the growth of that darkness in your heart and allowed room for love. Sounds corny to some maybe, but I really believe that. (A friend of mine was just divorced. She got her "I want a divorce" via email. All nasty details aside, I told her the only way she will truly be happy again is when she's learned to forgive her ex.) I stand by that, but I see many Christians on the news supporting the death penalty and wonder why? |
I would like to be a part of this discussion, if it's okay, as someone who believes in God, and that Jesus walked among us and brought us much, but doesn't necessarily believe that Jesus is God/Son of God.
I used to be in favor of the death penalty for murder, but I changed that.
I had occasion, through my church to become a pen pal with a woman who killed her two children in extraordinary circumstances.
I won't go into the whole deal, but suffice it to say that I chose to NOT judge this person and accept her as a pen pal at the urging of the person in our church who is in charge of our prison outreach program.
I'm glad that I decided that the circumstances were none of my concern since I felt that I could not possibly ever become apprised of the situation accurately enough to make an honest and informed opinion. She and I became friends, and slowly over time, she opened her heart to me, trusted me, and talked to me about what happened to her and gave me insight into what happened to a person that enabled/caused her to lose her mind enough that on some level it made sense to kill her children.
I don't know if it will even be possible for you reading this to think it's even possible to be able to wrap your head around this; I know I wouldn't have ever thought that I could have......but I did.
I will never again be of the opinion that the death penalty is the automatic answer......I still think that there may be circumstances, such as that of a serial killer or the like, but I am also glad that I will never be in the position where I would be the one making that ultimate decision.
Things do change when you least think it likely.
Originally posted by heavyj:
- Abortion: This is a gray area for me. I don't know that it is murder, I don't know that life has really begun and that God has blessed the child-to-be with a soul. As a man, how can I say "I don't believe your 14yr old daughter should be allowed to stop the process of bringing a baby into this world." Unless science has a way of detecting whether or not a being has a soul or not, I can't say with 100 percent accuracy that He thinks it's wrong. Abortion is an unfortunate reality of our times. Without it how many more kids would there be in foster care homes? |
This to me, is a decision that is between a woman and her God, or the equivalent. Nobody but God has the right to tell a woman that she will carry a baby to term. Period.
Originally posted by heavyj:
- Gay rights/marriage: Let me be frank and say that if it was a choice, then the entire gay community has got me fooled. If they had a choice and I meet my maker and He says "Why did you support the 'gay agenda'?" I can only answer by asking "How did they fool me...did they have secret meetings I was unaware of?" I really can't believe that people are willing to put so much effort into stopping gays from having equal rights when only decades ago women were fighting for their rights, and African Americans for their rights, to be seen as equals. Is it possible that God put the gay community here so that the heterosexual community who are overpopulating our foster care homes with 'unwanted' kids, could have another option; to have their kids live with 2 loving parents who would raise the child to be a productive member of society without the bigotry still instilled in many of us? I wish I knew because this issue in particular is one I struggle with. I have gay friends, I see the love they have for their partner, I can't see how God could not bless the love between 2 people, man or woman, when that love can be so much stronger and powerful than many of the hetero relationships. |
This one is pretty simple to me. Judge not lest ye be judged. I have many gay friends whom I love unconditionally for the people that they are as my friends. I have no issue with who someone I care about chooses to spend their life with.....I will support their choice of with whom to share their life, and their right to do so without interference from anyone who has no right to tell them how to live.....which reverts back to the God thing. Let God be the judge.
All of these are my opinions, and the guidelines that I try to live and abide by. I hope that these are reasonable and kind ideals that others will share with me.....but I am aware that these views are not universal, so I try to temper them with a certain level of discretion where it seems indicated rather than create strife. I am unwilling to compromise my principles, but I'm not going to wade into a KKK meeting with my rainbow umbrella flailing, either!.......8>)
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04/03/2009 01:02:48 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Death penalty: God gave the Israelites some stern rules to follow while they were wandering around in the desert. Yes, he said, "Thou shalt not kill." I think in context with His further instructions we might more likely translate that as "Thou shalt not murder". He specifically instructed them to execute murderers. Not as punishment, but to teach the whole society the value of the life taken, and to remove that cancerous influence. Personally, I can agree with that. If we refuse to exact a huge cost for taking a life, then life becomes cheap...as it has in our society at this time. It costs nothing but "freedom", and that cost now also comes with three squares, clothing, medical & dental and color TV. It should cost a man, or woman, EVERYTHING to take a human life. The value of a single life is immense, and we cheapen it if taking one costs next to nothing. And I think that is a Christian point of view.
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I don't believe murder in the first degree is the only way one can be executed (Correct me if I'm wrong). What about those that proclaim innocence until the very end? Have we murdered any innocent people because the justice system failed? And if so, is it worth the price? A man who kills his cheating in the midst of her adultery only later to completely fall to his knees begging for forgiveness, not from us but from God. In that moment there was uncontrollable anger, so much that it would cause him to kill. He is not a murderer like those that kill because you haven't paid your debts, he is one that has killed and truly repented for what he did. Does he deserve to die as much as the rapist/murder in the cell next to him. |
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04/03/2009 02:45:20 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
Originally posted by farfel53:
Death penalty: God gave the Israelites some stern rules to follow while they were wandering around in the desert. Yes, he said, "Thou shalt not kill." I think in context with His further instructions we might more likely translate that as "Thou shalt not murder". He specifically instructed them to execute murderers. Not as punishment, but to teach the whole society the value of the life taken, and to remove that cancerous influence. Personally, I can agree with that. If we refuse to exact a huge cost for taking a life, then life becomes cheap...as it has in our society at this time. It costs nothing but "freedom", and that cost now also comes with three squares, clothing, medical & dental and color TV. It should cost a man, or woman, EVERYTHING to take a human life. The value of a single life is immense, and we cheapen it if taking one costs next to nothing. And I think that is a Christian point of view.
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I don't believe murder in the first degree is the only way one can be executed (Correct me if I'm wrong). What about those that proclaim innocence until the very end? Have we murdered any innocent people because the justice system failed? And if so, is it worth the price? A man who kills his cheating in the midst of her adultery only later to completely fall to his knees begging for forgiveness, not from us but from God. In that moment there was uncontrollable anger, so much that it would cause him to kill. He is not a murderer like those that kill because you haven't paid your debts, he is one that has killed and truly repented for what he did. Does he deserve to die as much as the rapist/murder in the cell next to him. |
...and thankfully, I'm not the judge, either. Are there extenuating circumstances? Certainly. It would be tragic indeed to execute someone with faulty or incomplete evidence. There must be absolute certainty, by all means. Is there a degree of guilt that would demand lenience? Probably.
But my point is that when we completely abandon capital "punishment" the cost of the crime goes way down, and the value of the life (or lives) taken goes down with it.
And the risk involved with committing cold blooded murder becomes only prison, no matter how heinous. I don't feel that's good for society at all.
Message edited by author 2009-04-03 14:47:00.
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04/03/2009 03:39:06 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Originally posted by heavyj:
Originally posted by farfel53:
Death penalty: God gave the Israelites some stern rules to follow while they were wandering around in the desert. Yes, he said, "Thou shalt not kill." I think in context with His further instructions we might more likely translate that as "Thou shalt not murder". He specifically instructed them to execute murderers. Not as punishment, but to teach the whole society the value of the life taken, and to remove that cancerous influence. Personally, I can agree with that. If we refuse to exact a huge cost for taking a life, then life becomes cheap...as it has in our society at this time. It costs nothing but "freedom", and that cost now also comes with three squares, clothing, medical & dental and color TV. It should cost a man, or woman, EVERYTHING to take a human life. The value of a single life is immense, and we cheapen it if taking one costs next to nothing. And I think that is a Christian point of view.
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I don't believe murder in the first degree is the only way one can be executed (Correct me if I'm wrong). What about those that proclaim innocence until the very end? Have we murdered any innocent people because the justice system failed? And if so, is it worth the price? A man who kills his cheating in the midst of her adultery only later to completely fall to his knees begging for forgiveness, not from us but from God. In that moment there was uncontrollable anger, so much that it would cause him to kill. He is not a murderer like those that kill because you haven't paid your debts, he is one that has killed and truly repented for what he did. Does he deserve to die as much as the rapist/murder in the cell next to him. |
...and thankfully, I'm not the judge, either. Are there extenuating circumstances? Certainly. It would be tragic indeed to execute someone with faulty or incomplete evidence. There must be absolute certainty, by all means. Is there a degree of guilt that would demand lenience? Probably.
But my point is that when we completely abandon capital "punishment" the cost of the crime goes way down, and the value of the life (or lives) taken goes down with it.
And the risk involved with committing cold blooded murder becomes only prison, no matter how heinous. I don't feel that's good for society at all. |
I'm sorry but I don't think the research supports that statement at all. I don't really have time now to look it up but I'm fairly certain the death penalty isn't a deterrent when you look a the states with and without it. Moral issues aside, does the death penalty work? Well it gets rid of the person, but so does jail.
To put it practically, like the example of someone killing their wife's lover in a fit of rage. Do you think they are even remotely thinking of the consequences at that point? No, otherwise they wouldn't do it. The consequence of taking a life should be deterrent enough, and its not. So the thought of jail or the death penalty isn't what's going to stop them. And in the cases of premeditated murder... the person doesn't think they are going to get caught. That's why they plan it out. And some even WANT to get caught, want the infamy.
And I've heard also that putting someone to death can be more expensive than a lifetime in prison partly because of all the appeals. Chances are that person could live out most of their life in prison anyway if they keep appealing. |
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04/03/2009 03:54:36 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
- Gay rights/marriage: Let me be frank and say that if it was a choice, then the entire gay community has got me fooled. If they had a choice and I meet my maker and He says "Why did you support the 'gay agenda'?" I can only answer by asking "How did they fool me...did they have secret meetings I was unaware of?" I really can't believe that people are willing to put so much effort into stopping gays from having equal rights when only decades ago women were fighting for their rights, and African Americans for their rights, to be seen as equals. Is it possible that God put the gay community here so that the heterosexual community who are overpopulating our foster care homes with 'unwanted' kids, could have another option; to have their kids live with 2 loving parents who would raise the child to be a productive member of society without the bigotry still instilled in many of us? I wish I knew because this issue in particular is one I struggle with. I have gay friends, I see the love they have for their partner, I can't see how God could not bless the love between 2 people, man or woman, when that love can be so much stronger and powerful than many of the hetero relationships. |
Yea we are tricky folks, got you all fooled! ;) To the issue of choice... it's so simple its beyond me how people still think that this is a real argument. "So when did you choose to be straight?" or how about "So, average straight male, tell me, what do you think about having sex with a man? How about falling in love with a man? Could you make yourself do it? Could you choose to do that the rest of your life?" Oh no way? You think it's gross? Exactly. I know plenty of Gay men who think being with women is gross too. You think being gay is unnatural, well being straight feels unnatural to them. It's that simple.
I apologize for being so graphic but seriously. Some people think of gays as just parading around with limp wrists and fail to realize everything being Gay entails. It's not something you put on like an outfit.
And as far as your point on Gay adoption. Thank you. It is scary the amount of people that think children are better of in group homes than in a loving Gay home. Adoption is a long, difficult process, with so many hurdles, gay or straight. Chances are that person, or those people are going to really, really want that kid and do their best to make their lives great. But any heterosexual couple can just have a baby whenever they want, no preparation and who knows what kinds of parents they are going to be... |
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04/03/2009 04:18:46 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by farfel53:
Originally posted by heavyj:
Originally posted by farfel53:
Death penalty: God gave the Israelites some stern rules to follow while they were wandering around in the desert. Yes, he said, "Thou shalt not kill." I think in context with His further instructions we might more likely translate that as "Thou shalt not murder". He specifically instructed them to execute murderers. Not as punishment, but to teach the whole society the value of the life taken, and to remove that cancerous influence. Personally, I can agree with that. If we refuse to exact a huge cost for taking a life, then life becomes cheap...as it has in our society at this time. It costs nothing but "freedom", and that cost now also comes with three squares, clothing, medical & dental and color TV. It should cost a man, or woman, EVERYTHING to take a human life. The value of a single life is immense, and we cheapen it if taking one costs next to nothing. And I think that is a Christian point of view.
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I don't believe murder in the first degree is the only way one can be executed (Correct me if I'm wrong). What about those that proclaim innocence until the very end? Have we murdered any innocent people because the justice system failed? And if so, is it worth the price? A man who kills his cheating in the midst of her adultery only later to completely fall to his knees begging for forgiveness, not from us but from God. In that moment there was uncontrollable anger, so much that it would cause him to kill. He is not a murderer like those that kill because you haven't paid your debts, he is one that has killed and truly repented for what he did. Does he deserve to die as much as the rapist/murder in the cell next to him. |
...and thankfully, I'm not the judge, either. Are there extenuating circumstances? Certainly. It would be tragic indeed to execute someone with faulty or incomplete evidence. There must be absolute certainty, by all means. Is there a degree of guilt that would demand lenience? Probably.
But my point is that when we completely abandon capital "punishment" the cost of the crime goes way down, and the value of the life (or lives) taken goes down with it.
And the risk involved with committing cold blooded murder becomes only prison, no matter how heinous. I don't feel that's good for society at all. |
I'm sorry but I don't think the research supports that statement at all. I don't really have time now to look it up but I'm fairly certain the death penalty isn't a deterrent when you look a the states with and without it. Moral issues aside, does the death penalty work? Well it gets rid of the person, but so does jail.
To put it practically, like the example of someone killing their wife's lover in a fit of rage. Do you think they are even remotely thinking of the consequences at that point? No, otherwise they wouldn't do it. The consequence of taking a life should be deterrent enough, and its not. So the thought of jail or the death penalty isn't what's going to stop them. And in the cases of premeditated murder... the person doesn't think they are going to get caught. That's why they plan it out. And some even WANT to get caught, want the infamy.
And I've heard also that putting someone to death can be more expensive than a lifetime in prison partly because of all the appeals. Chances are that person could live out most of their life in prison anyway if they keep appealing. |
I don't think my main point was that it is a deterrent. It is that avoiding ultimate payment for the ultimate crime cheapens the life of the victim terribly. I kill someone in cold blood and get off with prison? That life I took wasn't worth much, if all I get is, as I said, three squares, med/dental and a roof over my head for the rest of my natural life.
And the expense is immaterial. I would think with absolute conviction of guilt, one or two appeals, and carry out the sentence with very little delay, it would be far less $$$ than housing and caring for an inmate for thirty or forty years. But again, that's just money, and doesn't amount to much consideration, IMO.
But I'm not trying to convince anybody, only presenting my point of view, and trying to make it clear.
Life is so cheap in this world nowdays. I think it was Kruschev who said something to the effect that a single death was a tragedy, but a million deaths were a statistic. What a sad way to look at humanity.
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