Diagnosing Electrical Problem - DPChallenge Forums

02/13/2009 02:10:43 PM · #76

Originally posted by PapaBob:

Originally posted by alans_world:
Jason, Normally on a house purchase the bank and or the buyer insist on a home inspection. For $500-600 the inspector with all utilities running spends 2-3 hours going over the house with a fine toothed comb. The inspectors duties include checking attic and crawl space for insect, rodent, or water damage. Interior inspection includes all water faucets, water heater, plug receptacle, lighting, water damage ect. ect.
If the circuit was tripped when doing the inspection it should have been flagged.
If a installed light was disconnected it should have been flagged.
Hell if any included appliances did not work properly it should have been noted.
If the seller paid for the inspection, they where responsible for full discloser before you sighed 5,000 pages.
If the inspector didnâ��t find these problems ( drive by inspection) well there is a reason they are bonded.
Your state rules might differ, but I doubt by much..

And if we do our job right we are worth every penny!!!!!!

Without question!!

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

02/13/2009 02:14:02 PM · #77

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by PapaBob:
3 way switch wiring diagrams
Here is a link to some variations on how three ways switches are supposed to be wired. To fix your you need to be able to figure out which way it was done originally then figure out which wire is which, not an easy fix. Good luck.

Thanks. So do you think incorrect wiring could work at times and then not? Could it possibly be something like this? Or does this not make sense as a possible issue?

Switch 1: Down Switch 2: Down ---> light off, no trip
Switch 1: Down Switch 2: Up ---> light on, no trip
Switch 1: Up Switch 2: Down ---> light on, trip
Switch 1: Up Switch 2: Up---> light off, no trip

Yes, all you have to do is hit the right combonation with the switches to create the short condition, typically I find them wired to where when you hit the right sequence then one of the switches becomes dead and will not operate the light but in your case it sounds like it creates a direct short instead.

Prof_Fate

02/13/2009 02:26:41 PM · #78

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I agree with papaBob. Something's wired wrong. BUT you have to identify how it's wired now - you need to find:

The hot black (and white) that go to the breaker box - are then in the light, switch 1 or switch 2?
The black and white that go to the light fixture come from where?

The linked diagrams are fantastic. I was taught to wire as in the first one, but have seen (the mess) that is the third one where the power is fed into the light fixture. See the white wire turns black and the black turns white? It's quicker (but wrong) to not label the wires but just hook them up. Now the original guy had no problems, but over 10 years I can see Joe Homeowner changing the light himself - 'wiring is simple!' and so he disconnects all the wires (white to white, black to black,right?) and when he goes to put them back together realizes not all white wires are created equal! Perhaps he replaced the fixture recently (to help sell the house) or I think you said the owners were investors...so there were renters in there? Perhaps they put up their lights while the lived there and then put the landlords back in before the moved (i have our old DR light for just that reason - when we move the fancy 'spensive one the wife bought will be coming with us).

So I'd suspect something is wrong at the light itself - you should be able to pull the cover off and not have to drop the light to see what's actually in the box. Ideally its one white and one black, but you already know that's not the case, huh?

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

02/13/2009 02:33:37 PM · #79

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

... BUT you have to identify how it's wired now ...

I have a cheap little gizmo called a "Toner" I sometimes use to map network and phone wiring.

02/13/2009 02:36:27 PM · #80

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

The linked diagrams are fantastic. I was taught to wire as in the first one, but have seen (the mess) that is the third one where the power is fed into the light fixture. See the white wire turns black and the black turns white? It's quicker (but wrong) to not label the wires but just hook them up. Now the original guy had no problems, but over 10 years I can see Joe Homeowner changing the light himself - 'wiring is simple!' and so he disconnects all the wires (white to white, black to black,right?) and when he goes to put them back together realizes not all white wires are created equal! Perhaps he replaced the fixture recently (to help sell the house) or I think you said the owners were investors...so there were renters in there? Perhaps they put up their lights while the lived there and then put the landlords back in before the moved (i have our old DR light for just that reason - when we move the fancy 'spensive one the wife bought will be coming with us).

So I'd suspect something is wrong at the light itself - you should be able to pull the cover off and not have to drop the light to see what's actually in the box. Ideally its one white and one black, but you already know that's not the case, huh?

Ya, I suspect the fixtures were switched out by the investors as they flipped the house to make it more appealing. I might have even caught whiff that the fixtures were gone when they bought it from the bank at foreclosure auction. (The people being foreclosed upon were probably all, "screw this, I'm taking my nice kitchen light!") So they either put the new light in themselves or hired some handy guy they know and he did it wrong.

I'm going to switch out both switches anyway because that's cheap and easy (and I don't like the popping noise on the one). I have to pull the light down to see how it's wired, but that's not hard either. IIRC, I think there are two sets of white and one set of black, but I might be wrong. I didn't look carefully, but I don't recall that someone took the time to label the two like-colored wires so as to differentiate them. So it will take a little working out. That voltage sensor will come in handy and is a good thing to have in the tool box anyway. This is how I accumulate tools. :) I've already picked up a good set of pipe wrenches to get the cap off the gas line for the dryer.

Message edited by author 2009-02-13 14:43:14.

02/13/2009 02:42:13 PM · #81

Originally posted by PapaBob:

And if we do our job right we are worth every penny!!!!!!

So are you an home inspector? Cool. Another little surprise on the house was the fact the eastern third of the house appears to have no crawlspace access. I've never seen something like it. There is a cement foundation wall with either a firewall or beam or something that runs almost the length of the house. The only access to the other side is a 8-10 inch gap in this wall and another space where the air duct goes through. Of course we wanted to have a cable outlet installed over this area (it's the living room/dining room that is over this area). The poor cable guy had to run a line completely around the house. It's not an addition and I don't know why they built the house like this. My guess is there is some access under the living room or dining room carpet which is now unusable because of the carpet. I suppose someone could have gone through the place where the air duct is and worked backward, but I scratched my head at that one.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

02/13/2009 02:48:24 PM · #82

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

... Another little surprise on the house was the fact the eastern third of the house appears to have no crawlspace access. I've never seen something like it. ...

Jimmy Hoffa! :-)

02/13/2009 03:01:01 PM · #83

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... Another little surprise on the house was the fact the eastern third of the house appears to have no crawlspace access. I've never seen something like it. ...

Jimmy Hoffa! :-)

I always like to joke with real estate agents and ask them if there is any signs of an old indian burial ground a la Poltergeist. This could be it!

02/13/2009 03:03:11 PM · #84

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by PapaBob:
And if we do our job right we are worth every penny!!!!!!

So are you an home inspector? Cool. Another little surprise on the house was the fact the eastern third of the house appears to have no crawlspace access. I've never seen something like it. There is a cement foundation wall with either a firewall or beam or something that runs almost the length of the house. The only access to the other side is a 8-10 inch gap in this wall and another space where the air duct goes through. Of course we wanted to have a cable outlet installed over this area (it's the living room/dining room that is over this area). The poor cable guy had to run a line completely around the house. It's not an addition and I don't know why they built the house like this. My guess is there is some access under the living room or dining room carpet which is now unusable because of the carpet. I suppose someone could have gone through the place where the air duct is and worked backward, but I scratched my head at that one.

Yes, I am an inspector, kinda fun to see how people screw perfectly good homes up....

Unless the flooring is a concrete slab I would expect an access point somewhere and like you said it may be under the carpet, typically anytime you have a crawl space under a floor there should be access to the space. Are there any sort of air vents? Air vents or some sort of vent system is always needed to keep crawl space moisture down which prevents mold and other moisture related issues in check. If the floor is a cement slab with not air space then naturally you would not have a need for access.

02/13/2009 03:12:16 PM · #85

Your in house crawl space should be located in the floor of a closet.

02/13/2009 03:21:09 PM · #86

Originally posted by alans_world:

Your in house crawl space should be located in the floor of a closet.

Either you are making a very good guess or are some sort of ax murderer that has scoped out Jason's house....:P

02/13/2009 03:33:23 PM · #87

LOL, no not a ax murderer, But I have done a few 100 foundations, and more often than I care to remember a set of plans had footings mis marked. 4 yards of 5 gallon buckets of mud, in a 2foot crawl space falls short of fun...

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

02/13/2009 03:36:37 PM · #88

Originally posted by PapaBob:

Originally posted by alans_world:
Your in house crawl space should be located in the floor of a closet.

Either you are making a very good guess or are some sort of ax murderer that has scoped out Jason's house....:P

Haha. yes, there is access in a closet, but only to 2/3rds of the crawlspace as I mentioned. I speculate there is a second access for the living room/dining room section, but that it is trapped under the carpet. I was down there looking around when the cable guy came trying to find a solution to where we wanted the cable outlet. (Now it's an issue for me in how I want to run some surround speakers.) Now that I think of it, I've never lived in a house with a vaulted entry. Perhaps that foundational wall down the middle is load bearing for that section of house.

There are vents all around the foundation, but there's no way you are gaining access through one.

Other peculiarities I've noticed: the wall shared by the garage and the office (where my treadmill will be) is actually two walls side by side. The garage wall has no insulation while the office wall does. That seems normal, I guess, but why build two walls like that with plywood between? I guess the plywood is to hold the insulation in place. Even stranger, the roof of the garge seems to "tuck" under the roof of the house. It's hard to explain, but there is a space which looks like a triangle where you have plywood from the house roof coming down, plywood from the garage roof coming down, but then a plywood cover overtop which seems to make a triangular tunnel. I have no idea why that was done. I discovered all these things when I was mapping out how to get my treadmill line to the office.

Message edited by author 2009-02-13 15:38:02.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

02/13/2009 03:58:55 PM · #89

From your description, it could be possible that the garage was added after the house was built. Or perhaps the design called for them to be farther apart, but there were limitations related to the lot size/configuration which caused them to be snuggled up like that ... or maybe they just really like each other ... ;-)

02/13/2009 04:06:10 PM · #90

Sounds like the office is a add on, there would be no other reason for two studded walls. As far as foundation access, without seeing it I could give you enough information to get you in trouble..:)

02/13/2009 04:38:04 PM · #91

Originally posted by GeneralE:

That just doesn't make sense to me though. You don't design a 2500 sq foot house without a garage. The garage as separate entity idea might have some traction, but I'm not sure about that either.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

02/13/2009 04:45:39 PM · #92

Just for fun. Here's the ground floor. The A is the access. The red line is the wall I can't get beyond. The wall between the garage and office is the double wall. Now that I look at it, the double wall may be because the garage extends out from the house. Maybe it was easier to do that instead of butting a wall out from the corner of the office?

Message edited by author 2009-02-13 16:47:13.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

02/13/2009 04:46:06 PM · #93

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

[
Other peculiarities I've noticed: the wall shared by the garage and the office (where my treadmill will be) is actually two walls side by side. The garage wall has no insulation while the office wall does. That seems normal, I guess, but why build two walls like that with plywood between? I guess the plywood is to hold the insulation in place.

My guess, without seeing the actual construction is that the wall could be designed as a sound barrier to keep noise from the garage area from intruding into the office.

It doesn't sound like the way I'd do it, but I've seen several contractors that think they understand noise control do some pretty goofy stuff (and charge premium $$ for it).

02/13/2009 05:36:27 PM · #94

Doc, Quick question, look at where the garage foundation attaches to the house foundation, does it look smooth, or do yo notice what may look like a rocky appearance?

Prof_Fate

02/13/2009 06:17:54 PM · #95

house is on a crawl space with footing, etc. Garage is probably a slab deal so the seperate wall could be a load bearing wall for the garage seperate from the house wall as each 'building' is on a seperate footing/foundation. Or it could be some odd fire code deal. Or the owner/builder made some change that resulted in this odd affair.

MelonMusketeer

Nikon D7000

Nikon MF 50mm f/1.4

02/13/2009 08:48:22 PM · #96

If you just want to run a wire through a place where there is not enough room to crawl, you can tape a pulling cord or rope to a piece of pvc pipe with a wiring "sweep" elbow on the leading end, and push it through the space. You then hook the cord with a heavy wire hook, through a hole in the floor, and use that to pull in the new wire. I would also put a spare heavy nylon string with the new wire for future wires like a computer or telephone line.
You may want to look into a wireless system for the surround sound thing.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

02/13/2009 08:50:56 PM · #97

The garage does sound like it may have been added, the original exterior wall would have plywood under the the finished siding, to get the wall to flush up they would remove the siding but it makes sense to leave the plywood.

Kinda sound like there may be secret tunnels you have not found yet so keep looking!

BeeCee

Nikon D40

02/13/2009 10:06:46 PM · #98

Originally posted by PapaBob:

Kinda sound like there may be secret tunnels you have not found yet so keep looking!

Oooh, hidden grow-op.... that would explain weird wiring as well. Gee, maybe Doc can start a new career! ;)