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02/12/2009 10:02:51 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by d56ranger:
my response the recommendation is to hire an electrician and not play around giving bad advice and thinking it is a joke. |
You mean like the guy I had come to my business 'cause I told him I thought I needed a new service being as how it was 40 years old?
He looked at it briefly, flipped some of the breakers on and off, unscrewed the faceplate off the box, gave it a perfunctory perusal, and told me it was fine.
Two weeks later, I stood twenty feet away from it during an electrical storm and watched with horror as it sparked, crackled, and smoked until the storm passed.
Yeah......what a pro!
He not only shot himself in the foot as an electrician, but as a businessman, too.
I was already braced to have a new service put in due to the age of the building.
Nobody's playing around here, there are good suggestions being made, and trust me, Jason is smart enough to know when he's at the end of the road.
Message edited by author 2009-02-12 22:05:34.
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02/12/2009 10:36:19 PM · #52 |
I am not an electrician, but well schooled in the finer arts of electrons & have read a few books on building code etc
when i redid my kitchen, did all the electrical, added 5 new circuits, separated everything yada yada yada.. (plumbing too..)
had two scares both involving asking my spouse to turn off MARKED breakers ...
my wirecutters have large gouges now ..
compared to what i pulled out of the wall /(damn DIY'ers ;) / mine is fine ..
attacking the basement in month (reinsulating & likely rewiring )
but i won't ask my spouse to touch the breakers
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02/12/2009 11:22:31 PM · #53 |
Woo hoo! OK, some good news. I got the dishwasher fixed. It was actually the hose from the water supply to the dishwasher. It has a catastrophe valve that kicks in if it senses the water is going too fast. The valve was activating too quickly. A new hose and we're in business. So I'll give the repair guy a break and consider him only 80% of a moron. ;)
The other good news is it is starting to rain. We'll see if the circuit trips because it hasn't for over 24 hours. I was thinking of misting the outdoor lights to see if I could trip it, but we'll let mother nature do the job. I think moisture is the best bet. It explains the sporadic nature of the problem. |
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02/12/2009 11:27:52 PM · #54 |
Good news is always good news!
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02/13/2009 12:17:56 AM · #55 |
More good news! Jenn had both the kitchen light on and the light over the sink on. When she flipped the kitchen light off they both went off and the circuit tripped. I thought it may be the light switch so I took the cover off to look inside. I thought we'd flip the circuit back on to see if something was sparking and shorting in the receptacle, but actually what we saw was the kitchen light very briefly turn on before the circuit trips again. So I'm pretty sure the problem is with the kitchen light or the switch to the light. I'm going to pull it down tomorrow and look at it (while the circuit is off). If I don't see something obvious to me, I'll call in the pros, but at least I'll be able to point to a specific location for them to start working.
Woo hoo!
The kitchen light has two switches for turning it on and off (one on each end of the kitchen). Does anybody think that has anything to do with it? |
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02/13/2009 09:55:14 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The kitchen light has two switches for turning it on and off (one on each end of the kitchen). Does anybody think that has anything to do with it? |
Could be. I had a 2-way that somebody wired wrong and it tripped breakers all the time til I finally rewired it the right way.
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02/13/2009 10:33:40 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
Remember, "If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical problem" : )
One other thing that comes to mind would be a cross wired 3 or 4 way switch somewhere in that circuit. |
quote from my first reply
With a 3 way switch set up like that, there are a couple of wires that go from one switch to the other. At any time, one or the other of them has power on it if the switches are wired correctly. It's easy to make a mistake and cross the wires, and it takes some thinking and experience to get it back right if it does get misconnected. The diagram for hooking up 3 way switches is printed on the box with most of them.
If you do tackle the job of fixing it, be sure to check that there is no power on the whole circuit as you go along. Even though the light is off, there may be 120 volts on one line or the other. Good luck with it.
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02/13/2009 10:41:22 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
Remember, "If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical problem" : )
One other thing that comes to mind would be a cross wired 3 or 4 way switch somewhere in that circuit. |
quote from my first reply
With a 3 way switch set up like that, there are a couple of wires that go from one switch to the other. At any time, one or the other of them has power on it if the switches are wired correctly. It's easy to make a mistake and cross the wires, and it takes some thinking and experience to get it back right if it does get misconnected. The diagram for hooking up 3 way switches is printed on the box with most of them.
If you do tackle the job of fixing it, be sure to check that there is no power on the whole circuit as you go along. Even though the light is off, there may be 120 volts on one line or the other. Good luck with it. |
Google 3 way switch wiring diagrams, there are several ways it is accomplished and the hard part is figuring out which way the circuit was wired. Reading the diagrams is the easy part, hopefully they used different colored wires to help trace the circuits. Your problem may be just a faulty switch which would be an easy fix but if the switches were changed and the wiring screwed up it will make it much tougher. Good luck and like mentioned above just because the light is off does not mean there is no power present, in a three way switch there is always power somewhere in the circuit unless it is killed at the panel. Have fun!
Message edited by author 2009-02-13 10:51:19. |
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02/13/2009 11:24:11 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... I'm going to pull it down tomorrow and look at it (while the circuit is off). ... |
Your friend --> Non-Contact Voltage Detector
:-D |
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02/13/2009 11:25:45 AM · #60 |
I am going to tackle this when I get home. I'm pretty sure the switch is wired wrong. Interestingly though, the other switch (which doesn't seem to cause the problem), if you switch it slowly, gives off that electrical popping noise like there is a short in there, so I'm going to explore that one too.
And don't worry. I realize my marginal expertise and prefer to do all work with the power killed at the panel. I know you can do it with the juice on if you are careful, but I don't trust myself that much.
Thanks for the help! I'll give a report later tonight. |
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02/13/2009 11:26:47 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... I'm going to pull it down tomorrow and look at it (while the circuit is off). ... |
Your friend --> Non-Contact Voltage Detector
:-D |
Ooh, I like that. Definitely going to pick one up next time at Home Depot (which seems to be every day).
Message edited by author 2009-02-13 11:26:53. |
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02/13/2009 11:50:00 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
More good news! Jenn had both the kitchen light on and the light over the sink on. When she flipped the kitchen light off they both went off and the circuit tripped. I thought it may be the light switch so I took the cover off to look inside. I thought we'd flip the circuit back on to see if something was sparking and shorting in the receptacle, but actually what we saw was the kitchen light very briefly turn on before the circuit trips again. So I'm pretty sure the problem is with the kitchen light or the switch to the light. I'm going to pull it down tomorrow and look at it (while the circuit is off). If I don't see something obvious to me, I'll call in the pros, but at least I'll be able to point to a specific location for them to start working.
Woo hoo!
The kitchen light has two switches for turning it on and off (one on each end of the kitchen). Does anybody think that has anything to do with it? |
Glad you've traced down the source. It is rewarding to be able to point to a specific problem - even when calling in the pros. |
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02/13/2009 12:43:35 PM · #63 |
| Doc, I told you on page 1 of this thread to check the switch....But at least the different ideas were entertaining.;) |
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02/13/2009 12:48:34 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I am going to tackle this when I get home. I'm pretty sure the switch is wired wrong. Interestingly though, the other switch (which doesn't seem to cause the problem), if you switch it slowly, gives off that electrical popping noise like there is a short in there, so I'm going to explore that one too. |
I experienced some problems with both the plugs and switches in the bathroom my daughter uses. Armed with an ohmmeter I checked the power leading to both of these items and surprisingly everything was seemingly fine.
It was only after I took out the switches and plugs that things get back to normal. I firmly believe that since my daughter takes showers that are so hot that one could almost cook lobsters, that the steam in the room had a negative impacts on the switches and outlets.
Things work fine now.
Ray |
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02/13/2009 12:56:10 PM · #65 |
Dr. Achoo,
About 12 years ago, I purchased a newly constructed home. After living in it for about a year, I noticed one of the switches "sizzling" and a faint glow behind the switch plate. The electrical contractor had used the cheapest switches he could buy. I immediately replaced all of the cheap switches in the house. The guy at Home Depot tried to save me money by recommending the cheap switches again but I figured in the long run, the expensive switches were a better deal. Personally, I would replace both switches on this circuit.
Good luck!
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I am going to tackle this when I get home. I'm pretty sure the switch is wired wrong. Interestingly though, the other switch (which doesn't seem to cause the problem), if you switch it slowly, gives off that electrical popping noise like there is a short in there, so I'm going to explore that one too.
And don't worry. I realize my marginal expertise and prefer to do all work with the power killed at the panel. I know you can do it with the juice on if you are careful, but I don't trust myself that much.
Thanks for the help! I'll give a report later tonight. |
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02/13/2009 12:58:12 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by rodneyg:
... I purchased a newly constructed home. ... I noticed one of the switches "sizzling" and a faint glow behind the switch plate. ... |
Dang! That's just plain SCARY! Good thing you noticed it before your house burned down. |
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02/13/2009 01:08:28 PM · #67 |
FWIW - i've personally re-wired GFCI breakers in the 50amp range after the supposed licensed electrician mis-wired it. so i'll ask you d56ranger - what do you suppose the PRO did wrong ?
i did so because the place i worked for got called for service because a brand new hot tub was tripping the GFCI. the problem on multiple occasions - wasn't the tub - but the wiring in the breaker.
i anxiously await your response..........
i'm not trying to knock your skills - whatever they may be. but at the same time sometimes people have knowledge in more than one field.
Originally posted by d56ranger:
other responses may have come from working electrcians or those that have worked as an electrician in the past - for all you know.
so maybe you should buzz off and short out ... ?
Flame, Flame, Flame... You need to turn your crcuit breaker off. I do know what I'm talking about. I have been both an electrician and and electronic tech (IBEW) Boeing and RCA. And, if you go back and read the original problem and my response the recommendation is to hire an electrician and not play around giving bad advice and thinking it is a joke. There are to many houses that burn down due to do-it-yourself wiring which the insurance company may not pay for if that is the cause. |
my guess was the switch you're mentioning was a dimmer type... ?
Originally posted by rodneyg:
... I purchased a newly constructed home. ... I noticed one of the switches "sizzling" and a faint glow behind the switch plate. ... |
Message edited by author 2009-02-13 13:10:23.
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02/13/2009 01:17:41 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
More good news! Jenn had both the kitchen light on and the light over the sink on. When she flipped the kitchen light off they both went off and the circuit tripped. I thought it may be the light switch so I took the cover off to look inside. I thought we'd flip the circuit back on to see if something was sparking and shorting in the receptacle, but actually what we saw was the kitchen light very briefly turn on before the circuit trips again. So I'm pretty sure the problem is with the kitchen light or the switch to the light. I'm going to pull it down tomorrow and look at it (while the circuit is off). If I don't see something obvious to me, I'll call in the pros, but at least I'll be able to point to a specific location for them to start working.
Woo hoo!
The kitchen light has two switches for turning it on and off (one on each end of the kitchen). Does anybody think that has anything to do with it? |
You mentioned that you found two white wires disconected in the kitchen light? AHA! Perhaps it's a clue.
There are many ways to run the wires for a 3 way switch - I was taught to run power to Switch A, the travelers then run to Switch B and attach the lead to the light off Switch B. Kept it standardized from our POV, easier to troubleshoot should that be needed, etc.
They make wires in different colors for a reason and code says if you use a white pigtail say, where it's functioning as a black wire (in a 3 way this can happen) then it needs to be marked as black (elec tape comes in colors for this (and other) reasons, or a marker, or paint can be used). Perhaps the installer didn't bother with this part? Or perhaps someone added the second switch to make it a 3 way and scabbed stuff together to make it work.
You're gonna need a GOOD diagram of all the permutaions of how one can do a 3 way light and switch and then figure out how they did it, then figure out if it's right or what needs done to fix it. Assuming it's not as simple as a loose wire/bad switch or someone installed a new light fixture and boogered the wiring when they reconnected it.
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02/13/2009 01:23:17 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
More good news! Jenn had both the kitchen light on and the light over the sink on. When she flipped the kitchen light off they both went off and the circuit tripped. I thought it may be the light switch so I took the cover off to look inside. I thought we'd flip the circuit back on to see if something was sparking and shorting in the receptacle, but actually what we saw was the kitchen light very briefly turn on before the circuit trips again. So I'm pretty sure the problem is with the kitchen light or the switch to the light. I'm going to pull it down tomorrow and look at it (while the circuit is off). If I don't see something obvious to me, I'll call in the pros, but at least I'll be able to point to a specific location for them to start working.
Woo hoo!
The kitchen light has two switches for turning it on and off (one on each end of the kitchen). Does anybody think that has anything to do with it? |
You mentioned that you found two white wires disconected in the kitchen light? AHA! Perhaps it's a clue.
There are many ways to run the wires for a 3 way switch - I was taught to run power to Switch A, the travelers then run to Switch B and attach the lead to the light off Switch B. Kept it standardized from our POV, easier to troubleshoot should that be needed, etc.
They make wires in different colors for a reason and code says if you use a white pigtail say, where it's functioning as a black wire (in a 3 way this can happen) then it needs to be marked as black (elec tape comes in colors for this (and other) reasons, or a marker, or paint can be used). Perhaps the installer didn't bother with this part? Or perhaps someone added the second switch to make it a 3 way and scabbed stuff together to make it work.
You're gonna need a GOOD diagram of all the permutaions of how one can do a 3 way light and switch and then figure out how they did it, then figure out if it's right or what needs done to fix it. Assuming it's not as simple as a loose wire/bad switch or someone installed a new light fixture and boogered the wiring when they reconnected it. |
I immediately thought of this too. However, the circuit didn't work at all while the two whites were disconnected (and it looked like they had been connected at one time because there was a nut on one wire and the other had that corkscrew appearance like it had been wrapped around) and returned to working when I reconnected them. I was paranoid that I had completed some incorrect wiring when I reconnected the two, but that doesn't make total sense to me. Am I wrong, but wouldn't an incorrectly wired 3-way circuit just not work because the circuit breaker is always tripped? In my limited understanding I'm not sure how a wiring scheme could lead to an intermittent problem. My bet is the switch is bad or some wire in the switch box can short if you exert the proper pressure on the switch while switching it off. |
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02/13/2009 01:45:00 PM · #70 |
Jason, Normally on a house purchase the bank and or the buyer insist on a home inspection. For $500-600 the inspector with all utilities running spends 2-3 hours going over the house with a fine toothed comb. The inspectors duties include checking attic and crawl space for insect, rodent, or water damage. Interior inspection includes all water faucets, water heater, plug receptacle, lighting, water damage ect. ect.
If the circuit was tripped when doing the inspection it should have been flagged.
If a installed light was disconnected it should have been flagged.
Hell if any included appliances did not work properly it should have been noted.
If the seller paid for the inspection, they where responsible for full discloser before you sighed 5,000 pages.
If the inspector didn’t find these problems ( drive by inspection) well there is a reason they are bonded.
Your state rules might differ, but I doubt by much..
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02/13/2009 01:54:07 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ooh, I like that. Definitely going to pick one up next time at Home Depot (which seems to be every day). |
Thank you for helping to keep my son-in-law in a job :) |
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02/13/2009 01:57:44 PM · #72 |
3 way switch wiring diagrams
Here is a link to some variations on how three ways switches are supposed to be wired. To fix your you need to be able to figure out which way it was done originally then figure out which wire is which, not an easy fix. Good luck. |
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02/13/2009 01:59:14 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by alans_world:
Jason, Normally on a house purchase the bank and or the buyer insist on a home inspection. For $500-600 the inspector with all utilities running spends 2-3 hours going over the house with a fine toothed comb. The inspectors duties include checking attic and crawl space for insect, rodent, or water damage. Interior inspection includes all water faucets, water heater, plug receptacle, lighting, water damage ect. ect.
If the circuit was tripped when doing the inspection it should have been flagged.
If a installed light was disconnected it should have been flagged.
Hell if any included appliances did not work properly it should have been noted.
If the seller paid for the inspection, they where responsible for full discloser before you sighed 5,000 pages.
If the inspector didn’t find these problems ( drive by inspection) well there is a reason they are bonded.
Your state rules might differ, but I doubt by much.. |
Oh yeah, I know all that. It was not picked up on the inspection other than it was noted the kitchen light did not work. (I assumed the lights were burned out, but that wasn't the case. The inspector is not going to remove the light fixture anyway.) The dishwasher problem was not noted and it's possible it had worked at the time. (I think the hose problem was coming from some grit in the catastrophe valve.) I also know already the hot water heater is near the end of its life and that's on the list to replace.
I'm not worried about this though. I knew what I was getting into. Being handy my goal was to get the best price for the house rather than annoy the seller with a laundry list of requests to fix. When you are trying to convince someone to lose money on a transaction you need to make things as smooth as possible for them. ;) I expected to find surprises like this and I'm not disappointed, eh? So far though, it's cost me $20 for a new dishwasher hose and some hours of work. |
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02/13/2009 02:03:11 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
3 way switch wiring diagrams
Here is a link to some variations on how three ways switches are supposed to be wired. To fix your you need to be able to figure out which way it was done originally then figure out which wire is which, not an easy fix. Good luck. |
Thanks. So do you think incorrect wiring could work at times and then not? Could it possibly be something like this? Or does this not make sense as a possible issue?
Switch 1: Down Switch 2: Down ---> light off, no trip
Switch 1: Down Switch 2: Up ---> light on, no trip
Switch 1: Up Switch 2: Down ---> light on, trip
Switch 1: Up Switch 2: Up---> light off, no trip
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02/13/2009 02:03:52 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by alans_world:
Jason, Normally on a house purchase the bank and or the buyer insist on a home inspection. For $500-600 the inspector with all utilities running spends 2-3 hours going over the house with a fine toothed comb. The inspectors duties include checking attic and crawl space for insect, rodent, or water damage. Interior inspection includes all water faucets, water heater, plug receptacle, lighting, water damage ect. ect.
If the circuit was tripped when doing the inspection it should have been flagged.
If a installed light was disconnected it should have been flagged.
Hell if any included appliances did not work properly it should have been noted.
If the seller paid for the inspection, they where responsible for full discloser before you sighed 5,000 pages.
If the inspector didn’t find these problems ( drive by inspection) well there is a reason they are bonded.
Your state rules might differ, but I doubt by much.. |
And if we do our job right we are worth every penny!!!!!! |
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