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02/12/2009 06:45:21 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by kaiser_chief:
I personally struggle to see why some people have an average score given of below 4.0.....Either they are doing this to help their own score, are frustrated that their own score is not doing as they think it should, are overly harsh on others photos without being as harsh on their own, or vote down photos that are not of their style based on personal opinion, and not the technical and subject matter reasons. |
I used to struggle with that myself......but I got into a discussion recently about scoring and it was most enlightening.
If a voter is consistenly at a 3-4 average, and they don't only give those scores, but in fact reward the images that truly move them, then it's more of a case of different classification of the images.
What the one person pointed out is that in most challenges, there are images that are really good, some very good, some good, some bad/really bad, and then there are a bunch of middle of the road images that are neither good or bad, therefore they don't even really register in his eye/mind.
So he votes them as 3s.
I actually understand and can see how that would come about, and since that's the way he votes ALL the time, then it's consistent, and fair, albeit differently than the way I vote.
Truth be told, I think he's a lot better at judging images of great depth than I as well, so I actually learn from his style of duly noting images that really impress him.
So don't judge someone with a different voting style too harshly.....maybe strike up a conversation and see if you can figure it out.
Of course, there are still some people that just piss me off with their voting and commentary, but hey, you can't make everybody happy, right?......8>)
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02/12/2009 06:53:25 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I used to struggle with that myself......but I got into a discussion recently about scoring and it was most enlightening. |
I was involved in the same conversation, and understanding those people with very different criteria makes it a little easier to swallow it when an entry I think is decent get slammed with a 2 or 3. In my scale, that says it's a crappy snapshot, but not to some folks. This is their vote for an image not speaking to them or containing whatever quality they are looking for. Maybe it's the same thing as what Olbol was saying about "wasting his time with rubbish", but it sure comes off more diplomatically.
Message edited by author 2009-02-12 18:54:11. |
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02/12/2009 06:57:04 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by olbol:
Although my overall vote tends to be quite low. |
I think this is an understatement... a 3.8423 vote cast average is a bit past "quite low". |
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02/12/2009 07:34:19 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by violinist123:
Originally posted by DigiFotoBuddy:
I like the idea. May be allow users to go to the next entry after voting 1 or 2. But remove thoes votes during scrubbing if 1 and 2 vote doesn't have meaningful comment.
Is it purely a conincidence that users who didn't like the idea, their average votes given is in the range 3.6 - 4.1? Just a thought. |
My avg is 4. I am ambivalent to the idea since I haven't voted in the longest time. However I would point out that given how pissy people get over negative commentary, forcing people who have the oh-my-god-how-rude voting averages to actually put words to those numbers is probably not something that will be well received. |
I am very well aware as many time I also got thoes nasty response back on the comments I gave. But that has not lowered my average vote given. |
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02/12/2009 08:14:17 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by violinist123:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
But in a not too terribly long time, I've learned to do some passable work, and it has been mostly due to people's willingness to take time with me and constructively guide me rather than just tell me I sucked. |
Nothing wrong with that. Plenty of ways to get instruction and help here, particularly by simply posting in the forums and asking.... |
Yes, but the site's stated purpose in holding the challenges is to "help each other become better photographers" -- see the About page.
Originally posted by violinist123:
Originally posted by DigiFotoBuddy:
I like the idea. May be allow users to go to the next entry after voting 1 or 2. But remove thoes votes during scrubbing if 1 and 2 vote doesn't have meaningful comment.
Is it purely a conincidence that users who didn't like the idea, their average votes given is in the range 3.6 - 4.1? Just a thought. |
My avg is 4. I am ambivalent to the idea since I haven't voted in the longest time. However I would point out that given how pissy people get over negative commentary, forcing people who have the oh-my-god-how-rude voting averages to actually put words to those numbers is probably not something that will be well received. |
I agree, and my average is over 6.
I think this site does its best to recognize the many varied skills, equipment, and aesthetic values people bring -- forcing any kind of conformity seems contrary to the very nature of artistic exploration and experimentation. We have relatively few rules, and those govern behavior and language, not ideas or opinions.
How hard is it to just say "IMO, the poor lighting/composition/focus really detracted from this photo"?
Admittedly, "Your photo makes me puke" conveys a similar message in somewhat fewer letters, but is so non-specific that it's not likely to actually help the photographer take a better picture next time, placing you at imminent risk of repeated emesis the following week. Of course, the photographer may be able to obtain monetary consolation be selling copies of the photo as a safer alternative to syrup of ipecac ...
Message edited by author 2009-02-12 20:28:20. |
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02/12/2009 08:15:38 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
[quote=kaiser_chief] ... and they don't only give those scores, but in fact reward the images that truly move them, then it's more of a case of different classification of the images.
... and since that's the way he votes ALL the time, then it's consistent, and fair,.. |
I think as long as most voters are consistent then that's all we can really ask for.
If the images that are winning deserve to win, than the site has justice.
There's always going to be that inner struggle to vote higher/lower than your own
if you're participating in that challenge. After all, if you're putting your best
foot forward, then you might vote based that yours is truly the best.
Maybe if voters did a 2nd, 3rd, or even dare I say, 4th view at their votes and stretched
them across the board on the 10-1 scale, people would be happier. Think of it as a curve
on test back in the school days. If the highest score you give is a 7, then why not make it
a ten in comparison to other photo in the challenge? Give the best of the best the high it
deserves and the lows... (easier to do on non-participating challenges)
Confidentiality on this site and during the voting process is a great thing.
Let's not compromise the integrity by forcing users to reveal their identities
by making them leave comments. just my thoughts... (p.s. guilty of all above good and bad) |
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02/12/2009 08:23:09 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by violinist123:
Nothing wrong with that. Plenty of ways to get instruction and help here, particularly by simply posting in the forums and asking.... |
Yes, but the site's stated purpose in holding the challenges is to "help each other become better photographers" -- see the About page. |
Actually that's not what it says, so why bother putting it in quotes. It says 'teach ourselves', presumably through seeing what works and what doesn't within the confines of a given theme. So people can teach themselves, and any critical commentary picked up along the way can be considered as well. That includes "I love this", "you should fix that" and "this is garbage". All of it is as instructive as the recipient wishes it to be. |
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02/12/2009 08:26:16 PM · #33 |
Thanks all, for the input albeit mostly on voting styles and general reasoning for giving/not giving low scores.
Can I paint the picture a little clearer by using the following scenario that has happened to myself and, by reading other's comments, to many other participants on this site.
* You enter a challenge and are able to monitor your score by using the speadsheet graciously supplied by a fellow DPCer. (Don't know yet if that's a good or a bad thing!)
* You reach the 100 vote mark and your average is in the high 5's with scores averaging between 4's and 9's.
* You refresh the next hour with only a single vote posted and BANG, you are hit with a one!....with no explanation given.
* This trend seems to occur more toward the middle and latter part of challenges.
Contrary to what I have said above, 1's may have been given earlier when many votes have been submitted between updates, but when the average vote is in the high 5's or 6's after 100 votes you would have to think the entry is not a load of "complete rubbish" as suggested earlier.
My "suggestion" was only posted to:-
a) try to deter people from boosting their own scores
b) deter the time wasters from bothering to upset people who are genuinely trying to benefit from this site.
c) not upset people
After all it was only a suggestion
Message edited by author 2009-02-12 21:44:23. |
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02/12/2009 08:39:43 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by violinist123:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by violinist123:
Nothing wrong with that. Plenty of ways to get instruction and help here, particularly by simply posting in the forums and asking.... |
Yes, but the site's stated purpose in holding the challenges is to "help each other become better photographers" -- see the About page. |
Actually that's not what it says, so why bother putting it in quotes. |
So sorrrreeeee, I was paraphrasing from memory. Here is the full statement:
Originally posted by The About Page:
The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week. The idea quickly took off and became much more in the months that followed. |
I dare you to present a cogent argument showing how the original statement and my paraphrase are fundamentally different in meaning, given the language modifications inherent in the scaling-up of the number of participants.
The plural "ourselves" refers to the group, not to each individual, and while potentially ambiguous, I'd argue that in this case -- supported by the existence of a voting and comment system -- the clear intent is to have the phrase take the meaning of "each other," and not to "myself, and she herself, and he himself" and so on ... |
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02/12/2009 09:03:58 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by violinist123:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by violinist123:
Nothing wrong with that. Plenty of ways to get instruction and help here, particularly by simply posting in the forums and asking.... |
Yes, but the site's stated purpose in holding the challenges is to "help each other become better photographers" -- see the About page. |
Actually that's not what it says, so why bother putting it in quotes. It says 'teach ourselves', presumably through seeing what works and what doesn't within the confines of a given theme. So people can teach themselves, and any critical commentary picked up along the way can be considered as well. That includes "I love this", "you should fix that" and "this is garbage". All of it is as instructive as the recipient wishes it to be. |
Actually all it says is the site was built so that 4 people could teach themselves to be better photographers (i.e. Drew, Langdon and a couple of their friends). It says nothing about what the rest of us should do with this site.
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02/12/2009 09:07:16 PM · #36 |
I've wanted to suggest to the site council to not allow people to vote on challenges that they have entered. I think people have a tendency to unfairly score their competition a little lower compared to when they vote in challenges that they haven't entered. Whether it's intentional or not, I'm not sure, but sub-consciously when they see another quality picture, I think they become insecure and mark good pictures lower. I don't understand how else top-10 finishers receive votes of a 1,2,3, or even a 4.
If on average people receive 150-200 votes per challenge, it might drop to half that number, but I think 90-95% of the votes would be legitimate un-biased votes. I think with the current system only about 60-70% of the votes are legitimate.
Message edited by author 2009-02-12 21:07:45. |
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02/12/2009 09:19:39 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by violinist123:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by violinist123:
Nothing wrong with that. Plenty of ways to get instruction and help here, particularly by simply posting in the forums and asking.... |
Yes, but the site's stated purpose in holding the challenges is to "help each other become better photographers" -- see the About page. |
Actually that's not what it says, so why bother putting it in quotes. |
So sorrrreeeee, I was paraphrasing from memory. Here is the full statement:
Originally posted by The About Page:
The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week. The idea quickly took off and became much more in the months that followed. |
I dare you to present a cogent argument showing how the original statement and my paraphrase are fundamentally different in meaning, given the language modifications inherent in the scaling-up of the number of participants.
The plural "ourselves" refers to the group, not to each individual, and while potentially ambiguous, I'd argue that in this case -- supported by the existence of a voting and comment system -- the clear intent is to have the phrase take the meaning of "each other," and not to "myself, and she herself, and he himself" and so on ... |
'Help each other' is not the same as 'teach ourselves', where's the ambiguity? By your reasoning, a bunch of folks who knew nothing decided they could teach each other something. Seems impossible, unless of course one or more was first teaching them self.
The existence of a voting and comment system doesn't seem relevant at all. Was the last election a learning experience for the presidential candidates or a popularity vote? Same here, the challenges are a popularity vote on the submitted images. There's no ribbon offered for most-improved is there? No incentive in the challenge system to do anything other than win and have a more popular photo than your competitors as gauged by avg vote received.
Anyone could click through this site and see that the overwhelming majority of knowledge transfer and encouragement happens in the forums, not the challenges. I would add that only in the forums do 'challenges' exist that DO reward for things like 'most improved'.
Message edited by author 2009-02-12 21:20:45. |
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02/12/2009 09:31:22 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by camphan:
I've wanted to suggest to the site council to not allow people to vote on challenges that they have entered. I think people have a tendency to unfairly score their competition a little lower compared to when they vote in challenges that they haven't entered. Whether it's intentional or not, I'm not sure, but sub-consciously when they see another quality picture, I think they become insecure and mark good pictures lower. I don't understand how else top-10 finishers receive votes of a 1,2,3, or even a 4. |
We thrashed that theory in a forum debate quite some time ago and discovered that,
1. There are quite a few people who have no such issue with the challenge entries relative to their own.
2. There is an astonishingly high ratio of actively voting & commenting people whose average vote given is higher than their vote received.
If somewone has a more gripping, visually appealing image than mine, what on earth is my voting it a 1 going to accomplish?
After you've been here a while, and as you get more comfortable wiyth the photographer that you are, how you do in a challenge is pretty irrelevant in the big picture.
Just for giggles, I looked at the Abandoned challenge where I got a red ribbon.....I voted 26 entries in the top 60 higher than mine.
I think by and large the community settles into a system that works and works pretty well.
The last thread where this was hashed pretty hard made me look back through my last dozen or so decent challenge images looking at 1s & 10s......I discovered that for all the squawking, I really didn't get very many of either....even on the one I got a red ribbon, which was a 7.1984, I only got 10-10s.
Personally, having looked at and pondered the voting thing from a lot of different perspectives over the last year or so, it seems to average out pretty nicely.
There is so much I need to do for my photography skills that I really don't have time to get excited about a score.
It's just for fun, after all.
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02/12/2009 09:36:02 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by violinist123:
Anyone could click through this site and see that the overwhelming majority of knowledge transfer and encouragement happens in the forums, not the challenges. I would add that only in the forums do 'challenges' exist that DO reward for things like 'most improved'. |
Yeah.....dude has a point.
The side challenges are a sterling example of that......take a theme, work on it and develop it for a month between 50-100 participants sharing ideas and techniques, and have it evolve into the next step or into a deeper offering on the same theme later.
The forums are where you can learn how to process, fix your computer, find out how things work.....the list goes on.
Hey! I say the challenges are irrelevant!
Let's bag 'em! LOL!!!!
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02/12/2009 09:38:42 PM · #40 |
As a newcomer to the site, I'd like to see comments required on 1's and 2's. In my mind, if someone is averaging a high 5 or a low 6 in a challenge, and the receive some 1's and 2's, someone is abusing the system. If they are giving what seems to be the forerunner in the competition a 1 or a 2, what are they giving the so-so photos, or the ones that are completely out of focus and you can't tell what in the world they are photos? (I wasn't in the top tier, but people on the forums, who were averaging over 6 would announce when the 2's were being given out)
I was very excited to find this site--it was exactly what I was looking for, but the extremely low votes with no input as to why were hard to take. I wasn't sure I wanted to be a part of something that people would go and slam you just to raise their votes or to be cruel. It's now my third challenge, and I'm getting a little thicker skinned. But I still can't help but wonder whether I'm getting slammed for a valid reason or not. I think it's cowardly to slam a person and not explain.
Also, I like voting the challenge I'm in. I have no problem voting people higher than what I'm receiving. In all three challenges, I knew where I was at before I voted, and I still voted myself in the middle of the pack. When I vote on a challenge I've entered, it is a learning experience--I'm looking a lot more carefully at each photo.
ok, enough ranting. Just saying it can be a real turn-off for newbies, and I actually feel that I've done pretty well in the 2 challenges I've seen through to the end.
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02/12/2009 09:45:01 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
As a newcomer to the site, I'd like to see comments required on 1's and 2's. |
I agree in theory, but in practice, I think the others are right. People will give the lowest vote they can without having to leave a comment. Myself, I will rarely leave a vote of 4 or less without some explanation. And I regularly receive PM's asking for more explanation of those comments, which lets me know it is appreciated. I also think I get the most out of commenting on the mid range votes of 5. It makes me think hard about why the photo is ok, but does not stand out. I can then try to apply some of those lessons to my own photography. |
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02/12/2009 09:48:48 PM · #42 |
Here's my suggestion... Be proactive. If we know there are going to be some 1's thrown out for no reason, then throw some 10's out for no reason... :) And do it to the really mediocre photos that you can tell someone spent some time on...
Details: Creatively photograph an apple any way you see fit.
Stats: You have rated 183 of 184 images (99%) in this challenge.
You have given an average score of 6.3115.
Yeah, that's how I roll. |
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02/12/2009 09:59:54 PM · #43 |
Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread yet but here it goes ... this might stir something...
You can not vote on a challenge that you take part in
My reasons:
- No one-sided voting, people giving low scores to boost theirs (this will increase the overall average for everyone)
- Forces people to vote (this is the core problem - not a lot of people vote) ... look at the 'End' challenge, there were 146 photographs submitted but only 194 votes were casted for the winner? How many of them were people that did submit!
There are 103,635 registered users and we are having a hard time casting over 200 votes.
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02/12/2009 10:00:22 PM · #44 |
| Well, I think of all the sub-4 voters (on my images) as beady-eyed troglodytes, & I'm coming to burn y'alls village after rollover. |
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02/12/2009 10:09:02 PM · #45 |
throwing in some 10's is a nice idea, but I'd rather get a 10 because someone really enjoyed my photo... But maybe I should up my overall vote range. Right now I figure I'm a middle-of-the-pack person. I vote the photos that I like a little more than mine a 6 and a little less than mine a 5. I gave more 4's in the apple challenge that I have in any other challenge so far. But I also gave quite a few higher scores (I actually enjoyed a good portion of the photos). I'm at 5.7 for overall average given.
Has the overall average given gone down over time? Perhaps we need to boost the averages for awhile--a vote stimulus package!
Message edited by author 2009-02-12 22:09:44. |
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02/12/2009 10:10:08 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by pwarmuz:
Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread yet but here it goes ... this might stir something...
You can not vote on a challenge that you take part in
My reasons:
- No one-sided voting, people giving low scores to boost theirs (this will increase the overall average for everyone)
- Forces people to vote (this is the core problem - not a lot of people vote) ... look at the 'End' challenge, there were 146 photographs submitted but only 194 votes were casted for the winner? How many of them were people that did submit!
There are 103,635 registered users and we are having a hard time casting over 200 votes. |
READ THE THREAD!
The theory that people vote down others' entries simply doesn't hold water, and most
people simply aren't that immature.
How would not allowing you to vote in a challenge you enter force you to vote?
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02/12/2009 10:13:16 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by pwarmuz:
Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread yet but here it goes ... this might stir something...
You can not vote on a challenge that you take part in |
I disagree and many others will. I have more interest in the challenges I am in. Most of the time I can vote fairly,and if I feel I can't then I sit out on voting. My average vote received is 5.27 and cast is 5.77. I do not believe such a restriction would make any real difference, other than alienating the people who have the most interest in the subject of the week. |
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02/12/2009 10:14:49 PM · #48 |
Not voting in a challenge you entered would then mean less votes given, less chance of feedback etc etc
I have int he past voted and commented on all photos (except my own) in a challenge. Others have done similar. It would lead to less votes, and less comments. I am usually more interested in challenges I have entered, as I find it interesting to see others take on the topic, and see if anyone else did any of the other ideas I had, so while looking, I often then vote and comment
Those that vote down great images because they think they might help their own image really should consider why they are here, and there will only be a couple of them, which can't affect the overall scores much anyway |
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02/12/2009 10:17:17 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
throwing in some 10's is a nice idea, but I'd rather get a 10 because someone really enjoyed my photo... But maybe I should up my overall vote range. Right now I figure I'm a middle-of-the-pack person. I vote the photos that I like a little more than mine a 6 and a little less than mine a 5. I gave more 4's in the apple challenge that I have in any other challenge so far. But I also gave quite a few higher scores (I actually enjoyed a good portion of the photos). I'm at 5.7 for overall average given.
Has the overall average given gone down over time? Perhaps we need to boost the averages for awhile--a vote stimulus package! |
It's an AVERAGE!
That means whether it's a 3.5, or a 7.5, it's an average, not necessarily an indication of anything other than what the viewers/voters assign as a numeric value.
If the highest score was a 7, you'd very rarely see a 6 as a regular score, if the high score was a 15, you'd see more 10s.
If you look past the myopic concept of seeing only a handful of 1s and 2s here and there, as well as 9s & 10s, you'd see that where the AVERAGE score is a better barometer of the impact that the image has on the voting body.
Why is it that the low quantity of 1s & 2s here and there gets some people so twisted up?
My suggestion to the comlainants in this thread would be to go look at the last 25 entries you've had and count all the 1s & 2s and see if it really is a problem.
I'll bet you'll be surprised.
Also....to everyone that has chimed in......look at your average vote given.....is it higher than your average vote received?
If not, then you're part of the problem that you perceive, and are unhappy about.
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02/12/2009 10:18:35 PM · #50 |
All I guess I want is to generate more voters ... why so little of them ... the 'End' challenge is an perfect example. For some reason it thought we should see at least 500+ votes constantly every challenge when our we have over 100,000 users. It's just my perception ... wouldn't 500+ give you heck of a feedback?
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