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02/12/2009 03:02:26 PM · #26 |
| Just solved my own "mystery" circuit tripping. After 2 days of testing, testing and testing, trying over and over to determine why one of my outside light circuits stopped working (wires recut/stripped and terminals cleaned, bulbs replaced, transformer replaced, outdoor socket dead, lead in wires to outdoor socket dead) - I discovered that the GFI switch for that outlet was located in a seldom used bathroom and had tripped. No notation in the main panel - but there is now. |
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02/12/2009 03:03:31 PM · #27 |
| You may also want to get in the attic space above the lights just to make sure no critters are chewing on the wires. |
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02/12/2009 03:04:18 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
With an ohmmeter that can measure at least into the 100,000 ohm range measure across the blades and across each blade to ground.
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Ohmmeter, schommeter. Just touch it to your tongue and see what happens;-p
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02/12/2009 03:07:28 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So far the best idea I've come up with is to leave the lights on and try to notice exactly when the circuit is tripped and see what's going on. |
If you still want to do this, you can get an adapter which screws into one of the working light sockets and provides an electrical outlet -- plug in an electric clock and it will show what time the power cuts out.
My first thoughts were also of an appliance (freezer, furnace, etc.) which kicks in with a motor which draws a lot of current to get started.
Congratulations on getting your own place. :-) |
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02/12/2009 03:10:35 PM · #30 |
There are some oddly located GFI outlets: for my exterior lights/outlets, there is a gfi on a random outlet in my living room! Conveniently located, as it happens, behind my entertainment center.
Go figure. |
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02/12/2009 03:49:57 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by chromeydome:
There are some oddly located GFI outlets: for my exterior lights/outlets, there is a gfi on a random outlet in my living room! Conveniently located, as it happens, behind my entertainment center.
Go figure. |
I find that rather interesting since GFI plugs normally are circuit specific. As such, a GFI for exterior lights and outlets should be situated on the outside circuit. As it relates to bathrooms, each of the plugs need to be GFI compliant and they are normally linked to one GFI plug, which is as a rule located in the powder room on the ground floor.
When it comes to Doc's problem, I tend to side with those who have mentioned a humidity problem, as well as a possible overload whenever a motor driven apparatus kicks in.
Good luck to you Doc, and do keep us informed of your progress.
Ray |
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02/12/2009 03:59:06 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by chromeydome:
There are some oddly located GFI outlets: for my exterior lights/outlets, there is a gfi on a random outlet in my living room! Conveniently located, as it happens, behind my entertainment center.
Go figure. |
I find that rather interesting since GFI plugs normally are circuit specific. As such, a GFI for exterior lights and outlets should be situated on the outside circuit. As it relates to bathrooms, each of the plugs need to be GFI compliant and they are normally linked to one GFI plug, which is as a rule located in the powder room on the ground floor.
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Yes--it happens to be on the inside of the exterior wall, if you know what I mean. So I guess the outside circuits pass by there and they tagged that outlet as the guy. Found it only because a contractor was cutting siding on a table saw in the backyard, knocked on the door and said he had blown the breaker. Wasn't a breaker, but the well-hidden, oddly placed gfi. I woulda found it later that evening, of course, when the tv was dead :-) |
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02/12/2009 04:14:25 PM · #33 |
I was up in the attic above the garage trying to map out how I'm going to run my treadmill line and things looked clean up there. I didn't follow the lines into the house attic though.
A question about a random GFI on the circuit. Why would that trip the breaker on the panel? and why would I be able to restore the circuit by turning the panel breaker back to on? Wouldn't the GFI have tripped and stay tripped until I found it and wouldn't the GFI trip itself and the circuit breaker in the panel stay on? |
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02/12/2009 04:32:49 PM · #34 |
A standard breaker trips from HEAT and ONLY heat. The circuit is getting HOT, hence the warnings from others about fire. GFI/GFCI breakers (or outlets) trip for different reasons and ARC fault breakers (mandatory for bedrooms for 5 or so years now in new construction) will trip if an arc is 'seen' on the circuit from say, a frayed wire.
You say the house is only 10 years old? Sounds to me like you have that wrong, or some moron wired it up. Or things were remodeled (possibly incorrectly) There is an electrical code in this country and it changes over time for reasons of SAFETY. It's updated every 3 years and is actually a product of the NFPA - National Fire Protection Assoc. So the code of 95 or 98 would have applied to a 10 year old house. I was working in the field (mostly new construction) when the '98 code was in effect. And you cannot have a kitchen outlet shared with a non-kitchen use. So if that outlet is in the kitchen (and therefore must be GFCI if it's within 3 feet of the sink or on a counter/backsplash) it's in violation. All kitchen, bath and dining room circuits must be 12ga wire and 20amp rated, so if you have a 15amp breaker on that circuit check the wire gauge going to it. 14 gauge wire is for 15amp circuits (the romex covering would be marked. It's usually white for 14amp and yellow for 12amp, at least for the past 10 years or so.) Lighting circuits like the kitchen light, outside lights can be shared, and can have outlets on them like in a hallway -just not in the kitchen (or bath or DR).
The counter has to have 2 separate circuits plus the fridge, DW, disposer are all to be on their own circuits. If you have a dedicated type spot for a microwave it should be on it's own circuit as well. This is all for safety. A 20 amp circuit can hande 2400 watts where a 15 amp can handle 1800, and you shouldn't really try to pull more than 80% of that rating. Coffee pots, microwaves, 4 slot toasters can all hit 1500 watts. Add in other appliances and you can easily overload at 15 amp circuit (think toaster, coffee pot, waffle iron and microwave on any given morning for breakfast) Hair dryers can hit 1500 too, hence a bathroom needs to be on it's own 20 amp circuit.
You say only 4 or 5 outlets/lights on that circuit? That's not many. Most elec circuits, for cost reasons, for the amount of space in a breaker box, will lean more toward the max of 8 to 10 items on a circuit when possible.
Also consider that some electricians like to use 14/3 or 12/3 wire - meaning it has one white(neutral) wire and 2 black (hot) wires plus the ground. You get two circuits for the same effort of pulling one wire around the building. But you can't use these wires on GFI/GFCI circuits as sharing the white wire will trip the breaker as it's automatically giving a ground fault.
So I'd say spend the $100 and have a qualified electrician come and have a look at the place. You know you have a problem. I suspect there are other issues, especially if the place was built 10 years ago. It wasn't built to code or has since been modified - and something was done wrong that you know about. There may be other issues you don't know about. Better safe than sorry.
Message edited by author 2009-02-12 16:34:46.
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02/12/2009 04:39:27 PM · #35 |
Ya Prof, I wasn't specific enough. The house was built in 1997, so it wouldn't have used 1998 codes, I guess. There is no kitchen outlet on the circuit, I don't know if you caught that. I have not been able to find ANY plug that is on the circuit although I suspect there may be some because the electrician labelled it as "lights/plugs". The circuit is 15 amp and the wiring in the house appears to be 14/3. There are GFCI plugs in the kitchen, but as I said, they are not on the circuit in question.
The chance of a remodel is always high and I certainly can't promise that someone didn't add something somewhere. |
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02/12/2009 04:40:19 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
So I'd say spend the $100 and have a qualified electrician come and have a look at the place. You know you have a problem. I suspect there are other issues, especially if the place was built 10 years ago. It wasn't built to code or has since been modified - and something was done wrong that you know about. There may be other issues you don't know about. Better safe than sorry. |
If there are any code violations or similar "issues" which were not disclosed at the time of sale, you may be able to take action against the seller to get it paid for. |
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02/12/2009 04:42:47 PM · #37 |
other responses may have come from working electrcians or those that have worked as an electrician in the past - for all you know.
so maybe you should buzz off and short out ... ?
Flame, Flame, Flame... You need to turn your crcuit breaker off. I do know what I'm talking about. I have been both an electrician and and electronic tech (IBEW) Boeing and RCA. And, if you go back and read the original problem and my response the recommendation is to hire an electrician and not play around giving bad advice and thinking it is a joke. There are to many houses that burn down due to do-it-yourself wiring which the insurance company may not pay for if that is the cause. |
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02/12/2009 05:19:04 PM · #38 |
| Let's recall I did put my own 20-amp dedicated circuit into my last house. It passed inspection and everything when we sold. I also wired and installed a new gas fireplace. I'm not a complete rube. I am smart enough to know what not to touch. That being said, I understand there is a time and place for calling in the pros. I'm close to it, but on the other hand electricity is not rocket science. If you understand the basics, you can easily understand what's going on. I'm just searching and diagnosing. If I can do that myself and save the electrician 5 hours of work then that's good for both of us. There would be nothing more frustrating to me than to call an electrician, have him goof around for 2 hours, and then declare he can't get the problem to occur and call him when it does. |
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02/12/2009 05:48:05 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
It could still be a leak from the bathroom, one that's too small to soak through the ceiling below, but enough to cause a short. My parents had a leak for years that was caused by a trim nail being in contact with a copper supply line for the bathroom. Galvanic corrosion ate through the pipe and it dripped for a long time until the hole grew big enough that the water soaked the kitchen ceiling below.
It might also be critters chewing the insulation.
Hopefully, it's just the breaker. |
I hope so too. The big problem with the leak theory is really there's no way to know without cutting holes somewhere and I want to avoid that if possible. The wallboard has a texture on it that would be difficult to simulate. |
There are fiber optic or video systems that let you drill a small hole (1/4-3/8") between the joists or studs, feed in the camera and look around. I had access to one at my previous job and it helped me inspect some otherwise inaccessible wiring and plumbing. My neighbor the electrician let me borrow his circuit tracer in exchange for helping him with this thing.
Now that I think about it, have you pulled the fixtures and inspected the connections in their boxes? You may have a loose connection there and something as innocuous as opening and closing a door may cause a loose wire to short and trip the breaker. |
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02/12/2009 05:52:40 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Now that I think about it, have you pulled the fixtures and inspected the connections in their boxes? You may have a loose connection there and something as innocuous as opening and closing a door may cause a loose wire to short and trip the breaker. |
There WAS a loose connection on the kitchen fixture, but I tightened it down and I don't think it should be a problem now. I have not pulled down the eating nook or dining room fixture. I hope it's not the dining room because it's a large fixture and looks like a beast to try to control while removing. |
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02/12/2009 06:00:33 PM · #41 |
Wiring is not a hobby , When your car breaks down you bring it to a professional and you don't even sleep in it , Hire a professional it will make you sleep better at night
I have been an electrician for 25 years and I have done many fire jobs where half of the house burn because of faulty wiring good luck , Send me a plane ticket and I will come and fix it for you
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02/12/2009 08:05:28 PM · #42 |
| I'm glad you said the house was built in 1997 so we can rule out aluminum wiring! Just a thought and it may sound somewhat kinky but is the bed up against a plug causing it to pinch the wiring at night? |
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02/12/2009 08:13:09 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by TLL061:
Wiring is not a hobby , When your car breaks down you bring it to a professional and you don't even sleep in it , Hire a professional it will make you sleep better at night
I have been an electrician for 25 years and I have done many fire jobs where half of the house burn because of faulty wiring good luck , Send me a plane ticket and I will come and fix it for you |
I have to agree, I do home inspections and I see a lot of poor wiring, a couple of weeks ago I inspected a house that had partially burned down because the wiring for the pot growing lights was not done properly. I also have a brother who had his house burn down when he overlaoded a circuit in an older home. So unless the next challenge is fire related getting a professional is a good idea. |
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02/12/2009 08:50:07 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
I'm glad you said the house was built in 1997 so we can rule out aluminum wiring! Just a thought and it may sound somewhat kinky but is the bed up against a plug causing it to pinch the wiring at night? |
I'm going to tell Jenn I really have no choice but to test this theory out tonight... |
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02/12/2009 08:57:19 PM · #45 |
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02/12/2009 09:19:41 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by TLL061:
Wiring is not a hobby , When your car breaks down you bring it to a professional and you don't even sleep in it , Hire a professional it will make you sleep better at night
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I am always amazed by how many medical decisions are made on DPC based on the advice of fellow photographers who have no medical background. So the good doctor is just trying to extend this tradition to wiring. Sounds no more and no less dangerous than the medical advice people ask for and accept around here all of the time. |
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02/12/2009 09:26:08 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by ErikV:
I am always amazed by how many medical decisions are made on DPC based on the advice of fellow photographers who have no medical background. So the good doctor is just trying to extend this tradition to wiring. Sounds no more and no less dangerous than the medical advice people ask for and accept around here all of the time. |
just the result might kill yo...
oh forget it |
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02/12/2009 09:44:35 PM · #48 |
OK, I'm going to take a minute to vent here. You know why I don't call in the pros right away? Because sometimes they are idiots. I mentioned my dishwasher didn't work because no water was getting to the dishwasher. The guy came to fix it today. "Looks like a bad valve" he said and replaced it. That's great, except it didn't fix the problem. "Well", he says to my wife, "I think it's your valve under the sink." He then packs up, tells Jenn good day, and bills Kitchen-Aid (thankfully) $133. I get home and proceed to take five minutes to switch the hose to the hot water valve for the sink. You know what, idiot?
IT'S NOT THE F*ING VALVE!
You know, I understand that expertise demands a premium for your time. Hell, I get paid a lot per hour because I have 9 years of specialized training in my field. But if you are going to demand $60-$80 and hour, don't act like a freaking moron. Make me think you were worth every penny!
Now I have to call the service center back tomorrow and say, hey, you didn't fix my problem and they had better send someone out a bit more proto than the 4 days as previously done.
So to everybody that thinks I'm an idiot for just trying to diagnose a problem when I actually have a small amount of knowledge in the subject (recall the framing experience), I'm apparently no worse than many in the trade.
[/rant]
PS: I fully realize there are great tradesmen out there and I am not in any way disparaging the people who have offered help on this thread. You have all been great! When I find someone I trust who has expertise with cars or plumbing or whatever, I hold on to them like they are pure gold! |
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02/12/2009 09:54:49 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by d56ranger:
This is why electricians make more money than photographers. I's the knowledge. You call the photog. for wedding pictures and not the electrician because the photog knows how to take pictures, you call an electrician to fix electrical problems because s/he knows about electricity. My suggestion on how to fix the situation is to keep-it-simple-stupid: CALL AN ELECTRICIAN BEFORE THE HOUSE BURNS DOWN and leave the photogs, here, out of the loop as it's obvious from the above discussions, they know nothing. |
Originally posted by soup:
your response is in a thread where a doctor who also takes pictures posted a question. i'm not sure about everyone elses careers - but i'm pretty sure there is a response in this thread from an electrical engineer...
other responses may have come from working electrcians or those that have worked as an electrician in the past - for all you know.
so maybe you should buzz off and short out ... ? |
Maybe YOU know nothing outside of photography, but the rest of us here do.
There are people from all walks of life here, and most of the rest of us have varied interests as well as photography......I am no electrician, but I've dealt with my fair share of house problems.......it's not rocket science, and the best plan of attack has been mentioned by at least three people......keep isolating components in the system 'til you either find the offending unit, or isolate the section of the wiring where the problem lies.
Something that not every "Professional" electrician is necessarily going to do right out of the gate.
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02/12/2009 10:01:45 PM · #50 |
I would open the socket boxes for the outside lights, and see if there is wire coming and going in both of them. If that's the case, then maybe the circuit leads on out into the lawn like someone posted earlier. Another tack would be to disconnect each light socket, until you find where the tripping no longer occurs.
Where you found the two white wires, that may be part of a circuit going to or coming back from a wall light switch.
Take out the bulbs, and inspect the sockets for loose parts or soot inside too. Sometimes the rivets will work loose and cause an arc which eventually leads to a carbon track and more arc. That in turn shorts out when it gets damp.
BTW, my work, self employed, for the last 20 years has been industrial wiring and machine repair around citrus and vegetable packing facilities. Before that I was a musician and sound engineer who worked a lot with low level and signal level equipment.
I also recommend that if you do not turn up a very obvious short in the line or sockets, it's time to call a local electrician. Whatever you do, don't put a breaker rated more than 15 amps on that circuit if it is AWG 14 wire.
Best of luck with finding the culprit. I hope that it is an easy fix when you do find it. If I was nearby, I would be happy to come over and check it out for you.
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