?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask

01/15/2009 04:15:25 PM · #28

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Who is the "beloved disciple"?

John.

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

01/15/2009 04:19:16 PM · #29

Originally posted by trevytrev:

Do you believe that God is Omniscient including the ability to see past, present and future completely?

Another question we can only answer within our limited understanding. I've always like to think of it as if God exists "outside" time (I realize that term is limited). If you think of time as a square plane in two dimensions, think of God as being "above" it in a third dimension. In that position one could see all time. It's a very rough analogy though and certainly not robust. Ultimately it's a question I can't give you the answer on. Let's put it this way, certainly I would agree that God knows as much as can be known.

JMart

Nikon D80

01/15/2009 04:24:02 PM · #30

Back in my born-again days I was very perplexed by my fellow Christians' (evangelical types) belief that Mormons are not Christians. In my mind at the time I saw Mormons as followers of Jesus who were indeed a variety of Christian and that didn't sit well with many Christians I discussed it with. Even now that I'm an atheist I identify Mormons as a Christian sect and my Christian relatives & friends don't think it's right to call them Christian. So, I'm curious why so many Christians seem threatened by including Mormons under the Christian tent.

01/15/2009 04:32:43 PM · #31

Originally posted by littlegett:

This goes into my next question, which is said that jesus died for our sins. Yet, this happen 2000 years ago, so how did he die for 'MY' sins? How did he know that I was going to be here and that I would sin? (Not saying I have done anything sinful, just saying for argument sake) Now, also, how can I put my faith, my 'blind' faith into an entity that does not put its faith in me? That believes 2000 years before I even come into existence that I would need to be saved, that I would mess up that I would need him?

Lastly, why is Pagan such a bad word?

Side note, I was raised roman catholic, baptized against my misses (as a babe) forced to do the whole alter boy thing and sunday school stichc.

I wouldn't necessarily think of it on a 1:1 correlation. Jesus died to allow us a method for attaining salvation. (This is going to get heavy here, so bear with me) Previously we had "The Law", a set of rules for proper living. If you lived according to the Law you were "righteous" (in a proper standing with God). The reality, however, is the Law was really meant just to show us we can not do it on our own. Nobody follows The Law fully. We all fall short. Jesus lived a life without sin. His death allows him to "pay" for our guilt. That payment sits like a gift waiting to be taken. This is also another analogy that can only be taken so far.

Many in Rant know I enjoy the writing of CS Lewis mainly because I think he is eloquent. This is what he says on the subject:

In his radio broadcasts Lewis remarked:

I think everyone who has some vague belief in God, until he becomes a Christian, has the idea of an exam or of a bargain in his mind. The first result of real Christianity is to blow that idea into bitsâ�¦God has been waiting for the moment at which you discover that there is no question of earning a passing mark in this exam or putting Him in your debts.

Later Lewis said that such an awakened individual "discovers his bankruptcy" and so says to God: "You must do this. I canâ��t." He elaborated: "Christ offers [us] something for nothingâ�¦." In connection with good works he stated: "[You are] not doing these things in order to be saved, but because He has begun to save you already."

EDIT: Oh wait, the Pagan question. I think it's more of an obsolete word rather than a "bad" word. Pagan refers to most worldviews that are polytheistic, which is, naturally, anathema to Christianity (and Judaism and Islam).

Message edited by author 2009-01-15 16:43:41.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

01/15/2009 04:42:16 PM · #32

Originally posted by JMart:

I have looked at this question closely over time as I like to talk with Mormons who come to my door. I'll give you a few reasons why Christians see Mormons as having gone "over the line" from being just a fringe denomination that is nevertheless "within the fold" and being something separate.

1) The Trinity. For some reason many Christians find a big difference in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit being, "three persons of one substance" (the Nicene creed) and "three persons of one purpose". Frankly I'm not sure why it matters, but I do list it because to many Christians this is a "deal breaker".
2) The doctrine of Glorification. Mormons believe that we can attain Godhood. This is probably most discretely elucidated by James Talmage (an important Mormon leader) when he said, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be." Mainstream Christianity would reject this outright.
3) Salvation by works. Mormons believe works are needed to attain the highest heaven much more so than other denominations. There is an admitted spectrum here, but Mormons are on the far end and most American denominations, as mentioned, reject this as well.
4) More Holy Texts. As mentioned, many American denominations believe in "sola scriptura" (The bible is the ultimate and only source for religious knowledge). Mormons have multiple other texts they consider equal to the Bible, the Book of Mormon being the most obvious.

Personally I try not to judge. If I see Mormons in heaven I'm not going to complain to God. However, by my learning and experience, I do not agree with Mormons on many doctrinal issues. I just don't know whether those issues are enough to get you kicked out.

Message edited by author 2009-01-15 16:46:21.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

01/15/2009 04:50:32 PM · #33

The biggest thing for me is that I have no idea who to believe. If I didn't have what I believe to be a personal relationship with God as I understand God to ber based on my experience, it would be really hard for me to choose a sect.

How does a reasonably intelligent, somewhat worldly person sort the wheat from the chaff?

My boss is one of the most decent, caring, good people I've ever met in my life, he doesn't preach to me, but he is always willing to talk with me any time about any religious question I have.

Oddly enough, he seems to be pretty similar to you in a lot of ways, including character, yet you two are probably two of the most liberal, radical people I have ever met of the Mennonites.

And I live in a part of the country where it's generally accepted that Mennonites are rigid, and stringent both in their beliefs and behaviors. There are many black cars, horse & buggy rigs, and homes without electricity......not all of whom are Amish.

Yet neither of you strike me as typical of the Mennonite stereotype as it is around here.

So that tells me I can't even draw any conclusions on what it means to be a Mennonite.....so what do I think about something that I have NO knowledge or experience with like......Presbyterians?????

What about the Rapture? Is that something I need to consider? Vatican II? Is the Old Testament to be accepted literally?

When you get into interpretation, which scholar wins?

Can you understand my confusion?

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

01/15/2009 04:59:10 PM · #34

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Yup I can totally understand. Once again I think CS Lewis has eloquently spoken my opinion:

I hope no reader will suppose that "mere" Christianity is here put forward as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions-as if a man could adopt it in preference to Congregationalism or Greek Orthodoxy or anything else. It is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can bring anyone into that hall I shall have done what I attempted. But it is in the rooms, not in the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals. The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. For that purpose the worst of the rooms (whichever that may be) is, I think, preferable.
It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into your room you will find that the long wait has done you some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and paneling.
In plain language, the question should never be: "Do I like that kind of service?" but "Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular door-keeper?"
When you have reached your own room, be kind to those Who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. That is one of the rules common to the whole house.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

01/15/2009 05:10:42 PM · #35

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Who is the "beloved disciple"?

John.

Hmmm. If only the answer were so simple.

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

01/15/2009 05:15:21 PM · #36

Some of these might sound smart-alec, but I really don't mean them that way. It just perplexes me to no end...

1. Was Adam a caveman? If not where did the cavemen come from?
2. Why are there no mention of dinosaurs in the bible?
3. Why do Christians believe the earth is only 2000 years old when there is so much evidence to the contrary?
4. Where did the people go when they died before the option to be saved became available?
5. Where are the people who previously went to hell for something that is no longer considered a sin?

I have plenty, but I'll stop here.

01/15/2009 05:30:54 PM · #37

Well here's what I've been wondering about; what is so secretive about the Mormon religion? I don't dislike Mormons, I just don't understand them. When I was in high school one of my best friends was Mormon and he wanted to invite us to go to church one Sunday. They wouldn't let us in! A different friend of mine married a Mormon in her church. Every inch of the church was covered in bed sheets so that we non-Mormons couldn't see anything. I live about 20 miles away from the Mormon Temple in Nauvoo and they have signs on the sidewalk that say no standing, etc. My husband took some people from California over there for dinner one night and they wanted to see the temple. They must not have seen the sign because they were standing on the sidewalk looking at the temple. 4 guys in vans pulled up and all but beat them over the head and told them to leave!
I just want to know what the big secret is?

01/15/2009 05:32:00 PM · #38

Originally posted by Kelli:

I'll start with the easy ones.
3. It's 6,000 year, not 2000 years and many, many Christians believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old just like everybody else.
1-2. I'm not even sure Adam was a real person, but he could also have been a man like you and me. (Perhaps he was the "first" man with a soul). All this depends on whether you think the creation story is literal or figurative. I lean toward figurative because the original hebrew is very poetic with lots of puns and such. If getting the details down is most important, then you don't write poetry.
4. I do not know. Perhaps we have a hint from one of Jesus' parables, "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."
5. This is a non sequitur because nobody is likely to have fallen under whatever your thinking is here. You mean someone who failed to keep dietary laws we no longer follow (as an example)? This would be a person that never lied, stole, envied, etc but still decided to chow down on some shellfish?

01/15/2009 05:38:25 PM · #39

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I lean toward figurative because the original hebrew is very poetic with lots of puns and such. If getting the details down is most important, then you don't write poetry.

That reminded me of another question I have. Back when the Dead Sea Scrolls were on display in Chicago I went to see them. Well, I didn't go to see them, but since I was there! I was really confused. There were several people there praying and crying, etc. I just couldn't wrap my mind around how these people were so emotional about ripped up bits of paper. For that matter I don't understand how people base their religious beliefs on these ripped up bits of paper. I'm not trying to be incensitive, but when I saw the display, that's exactly what it looked like, paper that had been run over by a lawn mower.

01/15/2009 05:40:47 PM · #40

Originally posted by icu1965:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I lean toward figurative because the original hebrew is very poetic with lots of puns and such. If getting the details down is most important, then you don't write poetry.

That reminded me of another question I have. Back when the Dead Sea Scrolls were on display in Chicago I went to see them. Well, I didn't go to see them, but since I was there! I was really confused. There were several people there praying and crying, etc. I just couldn't wrap my mind around how these people were so emotional about ripped up bits of paper. For that matter I don't understand how people base their religious beliefs on these ripped up bits of paper. I'm not trying to be incensitive, but when I saw the display, that's exactly what it looked like, paper that had been run over by a lawn mower.

Do you have kids? Have they ever made you cry or brought joy to your heart for silly things like little scribbles on a piece of paper? Try explaining that to someone.

01/15/2009 05:45:05 PM · #41

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Do you have kids? Have they ever made you cry or brought joy to your heart for silly things like little scribbles on a piece of paper? Try explaining that to someone.

Nope don't have kids. But there again, what does ripped up paper have to do with bringing joy to ones heart? Do you think they were happy because what they were seeing reaffirmed their beliefs?

01/15/2009 06:08:12 PM · #42

Originally posted by icu1965:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you have kids? Have they ever made you cry or brought joy to your heart for silly things like little scribbles on a piece of paper? Try explaining that to someone.

Nope don't have kids. But there again, what does ripped up paper have to do with bringing joy to ones heart? Do you think they were happy because what they were seeing reaffirmed their beliefs?

Possibly. Or perhaps they were just reflecting on their belief and that's what made them happy. I have to admit I wind up crying in church almost every week. Crazy. All I can say is my faith has become so much a part of who I am that it can drive strong emotions. When I was a child my grandfather would choke up when reading the Bible. I never understood it and it always made me uncomfortable. Now I'm likewise afflicted. I guess you would have to think about something in your life that you have a similarly strong passion for. If you don't, maybe it's time you found one. ;)

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

01/15/2009 06:13:06 PM · #43

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by icu1965:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you have kids? Have they ever made you cry or brought joy to your heart for silly things like little scribbles on a piece of paper? Try explaining that to someone.

Nope don't have kids. But there again, what does ripped up paper have to do with bringing joy to ones heart? Do you think they were happy because what they were seeing reaffirmed their beliefs?

Possibly. Or perhaps they were just reflecting on their belief and that's what made them happy. I have to admit I wind up crying in church almost every week. Crazy. All I can say is my faith has become so much a part of who I am that it can drive strong emotions. When I was a child my grandfather would choke up when reading the Bible. I never understood it and it always made me uncomfortable. Now I'm likewise afflicted. I guess you would have to think about something in your life that you have a similarly strong passion for. If you don't, maybe it's time you found one. ;)

Well I grew up VERY differently :) My dad's family is Irish, so very non-emotional, unless they're dancing and drinking beer. My mom's family is Mexican, way too emotional if you ask me! I grew up being afraid of what God will do to you if you don't "obey". I suppose I never stopped to think of being happy of what God would do if I followed the commandments.
Thanks for that!

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

01/15/2009 06:21:35 PM · #44

Just a few questions:

1. It has been argued that belief is the result of indoctination. You believe in what you do because of the environment in which you live or were raised in. Do you believe this is to be true?

2. If your answer to #1 is FALSE then did you withhold your faith in the bible and the god it depicts until after you investigated works by other religions as well as works by those who claim there is no god as well as your own personal experiences? In other words, shouldn't it take a life time before one subscribes to any god?

3. If your answer to #2 was NO, you didn't spend a lifetime researching then how can you justify your seemingly random choice of faith? Wouldn't it seem that #1 is in fact TRUE, that your faith is just a by product and was predetermined? Wouldn't that undermine the very concept of faith?

ETA: Feel free to answer in the general sense. These are not questions just for you but generally speaking for any religious person.

Message edited by author 2009-01-15 18:23:22.

01/15/2009 06:26:45 PM · #45

Originally posted by yanko:

I believe that to be true, but I also believe that once a person is old enough to make their own decisions, then they can change their beliefs. Most children don't have a choice to decide what church they go to until they are able to take themselves to church. I was baptized when I was a baby, I had no choice in that matter. I had to go to my first communion because my mom made me. Now that I'm old enough to make my own decisions, I'm still Catholic, but I think if I ever have kids I will not make them commit to a religion, like my mother did, until they can decide for themselves.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

01/15/2009 06:28:14 PM · #46

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scarbrd:
I've got one . . .

No disrespect intended.

I've never really understood the bit about constant praise and worship of God. I get all the faith, belief, salvation points.

But does God really require that we attribute all things to him? Being omnipotent as he is, does he need constant reassurance that we know all things possible come through him? I see people all the time thanking God for winning a football game, having a safe family, etc. Almost as if losing someone dear or losing a game is somehow Godâ��s retribution for not acknowledging him.

I've even heard my more fundamentalist friends say that in heaven we spend eternity praising God. Does that sound like heaven to anyone?

I don't know if I am saying this quite right, but it appears to me that some people think God's ego is so fragile that if we do not constantly acknowledge and worship him, we are somehow doing him a disservice?

Make sense?

Good one. I have lots of the same questions. Frankly God does not need our praise although the Bible says he delights in it. The breakdown probably comes in trying to describe God in human terms. God is to us as we are to an ant. How does an ant describe the workings of man, something far more complex than it? It's impossible. Still, we do our best and often wind up using human adjectives or human analogies. God is described as a "father" which tries to indicate some qualities of a relationship, but is obviously not literally true.

I've heard the eternity praising God thing too. I can't quite imagine this is literally true either, but I would think that living in the actual presence of God would invoke awe, praise, joy and all sorts of positive emotions. I think as far as Scripture says (and I could be wrong on this), the Angels are the ones Praising God forever, not us. Revelation, however, is a very hard book to understand and is full of imagery and poetry.

How do you reconcile the idea that god is as powerful as is generally believed, yet petty enough to still require your constant praise, or even to delight in it.

Do you care what an ant thinks about you? Why do you think your god cares about you, or what you think, if you are so insignificant to it?

I agree that this constant need to provide money and support to the church, in the name of god, is likely due to a breakdown in trying to describe God in human terms, by humans that stood to benefit from the explanations they give. Otherwise, the god they describe always seems to be obsessed with the unimportant and trivial, for a being so all powerful.

01/15/2009 06:30:04 PM · #47

Originally posted by yanko:

#1 Completely discounts adult conversions. I know lots and lots and lots of people who came to faith in their adult years. This would indicate that the environment you were raised is not the be-all of faith.
#2 One can weigh the truth of a statement on its own merits without hearing other statments. In other words, I think it is valid to jump before hearing all stories. That being said, I have at least a passing knowledge (if not more) of the dozen most common faiths in the world. Christianity is unique among them and I find that compelling.
#3 Remember the question, "Compared to God, what do I bring to the Table of Salvation?" The answer is "nothing". I fully realize that the things under God's control, when I was born, where I was born, who my parents are shape who I am. While adult conversions show these do not predetermine your fate, we can all agree they help. Is it fair some are born with this advantage? You'll have to ask God.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

01/15/2009 06:37:40 PM · #48

Originally posted by Gordon:

I reconcile them by pointing out, again, our language and comprehension are not up to the task. God does not "require" my praise. What does that even mean? He'll die without it? And why must a being be "petty" to delight in something they have created?

The fact that God cares about us is incredible. I agree. WHY does he delight in us? Why create us? I do not know because I am not God. Yet he does. It is humbling.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

01/15/2009 06:38:47 PM · #49

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Christianity is unique among them and I find that compelling.

I find this statement interesting. Could you expound on what you mean by unique, or at least explain its uniqueness, as you see it?