DPChallenge: A Digital Photography Contest You are not logged in. (log in or register
 

DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> ?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask
Pages:   ... ... [69]
Showing posts 176 - 200 of 1721, (reverse)
AuthorThread
01/18/2009 06:19:50 PM · #176
Originally posted by L1:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

If it's all God's decision, what's the point?

What is the motivation to work, to excel, to get out of bed in the morning?


Because every morning we as Christians get out of bed and go to work/school/etc., we have opportunities before us to share the Good News with others. It's the The Great Commission. :)


But, the die is cast. God has already determined their fate, no matter what you decide, you can't change what is pre-determined. If their fate is to be damned for eternity, you cannot change that, so in the end, the "Great Commission" is futile.
01/18/2009 08:49:01 PM · #177
Originally posted by Melethia:

Just out of curiousity, what the heck is a baby-religion?


That was my term for a religion that only promises good things.
01/18/2009 08:51:12 PM · #178
Originally posted by trevytrev:

...that doesn't seem like an omniscient being to me.


I'll catch the rest of the post at another point. I'm just trying to answer some of the easier stuff. To be omniscient do you have to know all knowledge or do you have to know all knowledge that can be known? I would argue the second is just as valid and clearly such knowledge would be considered "godlike".

Also, even if God allows different futures to play out, he has the ability to arrive at the final outcome he wishes because he knows all outcomes. So while the details may be left to us, the big picture is in God's control.

I'll definitely say I'm more or less thinking out loud here. This is far from "doctrine".

Message edited by author 2009-01-18 20:52:54.
01/18/2009 08:57:25 PM · #179
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

If it's all God's decision, what's the point?

What is the motivation to work, to excel, to get out of bed in the morning?


Your question is self-refuting. If it's "all God's decision" then you have no choice to get out of bed and excel. If it isn't all God's decision then you can be motivated for various reasons including love for God.

I think one thing that gets missed is the passage is talking about Salvation and not what color shirt you are going to wear. I will also say there is the other side of the story and lots of Christians focus on the free will portion of the equation.
01/18/2009 09:23:09 PM · #180
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Your question is self-refuting. If it's "all God's decision" then you have no choice to get out of bed and excel. If it isn't all God's decision then you can be motivated for various reasons including love for God.

Your answer is self-refuting. If it's "all God's decision" then you can't be motivated for various reasons including love for God. If it isn't all God's decision then you refute "the ability to arrive at the final outcome he wishes."
01/18/2009 09:28:57 PM · #181
Originally posted by yanko:

Why do you choose to believe all of this? You say in one breath that our minds cannot fathom such things but it's clear your mind tries to. Why is that? Clearly you've thought about it to offer up this possible explanation so it sounds like it's important to you but to me it comes across as one leap of faith resting on top of another one. How can you justify that while refusing to take any leap of faith in these other baby religions you mentioned? You dismiss them out of hand just because they are warm and fuzzy? I'm sure that's how Christianity was 2000 years ago. Besides, if you really want something with lots of hard parts than try not believing. Now that's a challenge. :)


I believe because it speaks to me and describes the world I see very well. I also believe because I know that no worldview can present answers to all questions on two levels. First, our own personal knowledge within a worldview is limited. Nobody is likely to know everything about their worldview. I'm quite sure that's true for me. Second, even if you could pack all the knowledge possessed by a worldview's adherents into a computer, there would still be questions unanswered by that body of knowledge. I'm comfortable with that because I realize it's true for everybody no matter what you believe. I like to try to posit possible answers, but I don't know everything.
01/18/2009 09:37:11 PM · #182
Originally posted by trevytrev:

As for your second answer I don't think that really answers my question, it's kind of a copout( for lack of a more respectable term). First, in response to the scripture, I would have responded to the question Who am I to question God?, I'm god's creation, I'm molded in his likeness, he designed me to be inquisitive, to be curious, to wonder.. that's who I am. If I made a pot with a fully functional brain and vocal cords I would expect that pot to ask me why I made it to hold flowers and not pork and beans, not to scold it or play it off. None of this scripture answers the question of why god would create an individual with the knowledge that it would spend an eternity in hell(that is if you believe that god does no the true future). Now you can say that some things are beyond our comprehension but that just seems a bit of way to deflect a tough question that possibly rips a hole in faith, a we don't know why god does some of the things he does but he has his reasons and they are beyond us, let's move on. Why ask or answer and questions about god or religion and just get straight to the point, we don't understand so let's just have faith. Your thoughts?


Listen. People have wrestled with this for thousands of years. I'm unlikely to come up with the answer for you. Is God in control? Yes. Are we responsible for our actions? Yes. Is an electron a wave or a particle? Yes. I know that does not feel satisfactory, but it can still be the truth. And respectfully, God's creation is not God. Just because we do not understand his ways does not make them invalid.

Ultimately it may not matter when you are faced with deciding whether to buy into it or not. If God is in control down to the finest detail, then you will either believe or not based on his will. If God allows you this freedom, then you are personally responsible. You may as well assume the second to be true because you have no choice in the first.
01/18/2009 09:38:38 PM · #183
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by trevytrev:

...that doesn't seem like an omniscient being to me.


I'll catch the rest of the post at another point. I'm just trying to answer some of the easier stuff. To be omniscient do you have to know all knowledge or do you have to know all knowledge that can be known? I would argue the second is just as valid and clearly such knowledge would be considered "godlike".

Also, even if God allows different futures to play out, he has the ability to arrive at the final outcome he wishes because he knows all outcomes. So while the details may be left to us, the big picture is in God's control.

I'll definitely say I'm more or less thinking out loud here. This is far from "doctrine".


I will concede that the ability to foresee all possible outcomes of mankind is godlike, but not foreseeing the actual outcome is not. Weathermen input data into their supercomputers and get to see all the different weather models, even the ones with a low probability of happening. They get to foresee all the possible patterns but they never know for sure which model the current weather system will actually follow, I wouldn't call this godlike, just being supplied with the proper information. I'm stretching here but you hopefully get my point.

Now you severely contradict Free Will, as most Christians understand it, by stating: even if God allows different futures to play out, he has the ability to arrive at the final outcome he wishes because he knows all outcomes. So while the details may be left to us, the big picture is in God's control.

How can we be left to decide if god has an outcome that he wishes, somewhere along the line he is either altering our decisions or flat out not letting us decide for ourselves. You say that he has the ability arrive at the final outcome he wishes, that would mean he is in control and not us, which would mean that we do not have free will and that he gets what he wants.

Another question, do you believe in miracles that are performed by god or though people by the grace of god? If so this again goes against the free will doctrine. How can we be left to our own devises yet god is playing interventionist?
01/18/2009 09:39:42 PM · #184
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Your question is self-refuting. If it's "all God's decision" then you have no choice to get out of bed and excel. If it isn't all God's decision then you can be motivated for various reasons including love for God.

Your answer is self-refuting. If it's "all God's decision" then you can't be motivated for various reasons including love for God. If it isn't all God's decision then you refute "the ability to arrive at the final outcome he wishes."


If you read again, we agree on your first statement. The second is not necessarily true. You could have free will over your choice, but God keeps presenting the question until you choose it the way he wants. :) What's up to you is how long you take and how much trouble you'll have in the meantime.
01/18/2009 09:43:01 PM · #185
Originally posted by trevytrev:

How can we be left to decide if god has an outcome that he wishes, somewhere along the line he is either altering our decisions or flat out not letting us decide for ourselves. You say that he has the ability arrive at the final outcome he wishes, that would mean he is in control and not us, which would mean that we do not have free will and that he gets what he wants.

Another question, do you believe in miracles that are performed by god or though people by the grace of god? If so this again goes against the free will doctrine. How can we be left to our own devises yet god is playing interventionist?


Perhaps we are miscommunicating on a matter of scale. God could leave daily decisions of our lives to us but has assured that "good triumphs over evil" in the end. How we get there is up to us? That's what I'm talking about.

I believe in miracles, but I believe they are rare for the exact reason you mentioned. It's possible miracles represent God's "nudges".

Message edited by author 2009-01-18 21:43:17.
01/18/2009 09:45:18 PM · #186
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

If it's all God's decision, what's the point?

What is the motivation to work, to excel, to get out of bed in the morning?


Your question is self-refuting. If it's "all God's decision" then you have no choice to get out of bed and excel. If it isn't all God's decision then you can be motivated for various reasons including love for God.

I think one thing that gets missed is the passage is talking about Salvation and not what color shirt you are going to wear. I will also say there is the other side of the story and lots of Christians focus on the free will portion of the equation.


Exactly, you're a slave to the will of God. There's no such thing as personal responsibility.

So, anything and everything is what God has chosen. Imagine the most disgusting, heinous act you can imagine and the people doing it aren't responsible...God is.

Why even have commandments or the Golden Rule?

01/18/2009 09:48:11 PM · #187
Originally posted by DrAchoo/:



Ultimately it may not matter when you are faced with deciding whether to buy into it or not. If God is in control down to the finest detail, then you will either believe or not based on his will. If God allows you this freedom, then you are personally responsible. You may as well assume the second to be true because you have no choice in the first.


With all due respect, you can assume a third option which is there might not be some being overlooking, knowing or controlling our actions.

Message edited by author 2009-01-18 21:48:59.
01/19/2009 09:21:31 AM · #188
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Your answer is self-refuting. If it's "all God's decision" then you can't be motivated for various reasons including love for God. If it isn't all God's decision then you refute "the ability to arrive at the final outcome he wishes."

If you read again, we agree on your first statement. The second is not necessarily true. You could have free will over your choice, but God keeps presenting the question until you choose it the way he wants. :) What's up to you is how long you take and how much trouble you'll have in the meantime.

That doesn't even make sense. Adam and Eve get one shot and then everyone is damned for eternity for making the choice he presumably already knew they'd make. Ditto pretty much every major story in the Bible– one chance and then it's pillar of salt time. So either God had some expectation that the character(s) would make the correct choice (and thus isn't omnipotent) or already knew what was going to happen and staged the whole thing anyway (thereby rendering free will an illusion and his guidance pointless). You can't have it both ways.
01/19/2009 02:04:50 PM · #189
Originally posted by trevytrev:

Originally posted by DrAchoo/:



Ultimately it may not matter when you are faced with deciding whether to buy into it or not. If God is in control down to the finest detail, then you will either believe or not based on his will. If God allows you this freedom, then you are personally responsible. You may as well assume the second to be true because you have no choice in the first.


With all due respect, you can assume a third option which is there might not be some being overlooking, knowing or controlling our actions.


Oh yeah, I'm not neglecting that option. A total possibility.
01/19/2009 02:13:08 PM · #190
I think to sum up this argument, I'll go back to the electron analogy. Sometimes we just can't quite get the reality of the situation. Is an electron a particle? Well, sometimes it acts like it. Is it a wave? Well, sometimes it acts like it. The reality is likely a third option that isn't either a particle OR a wave, but is difficult for us to grasp. Does this mean we should chuck the particle idea? No. It has it's uses and can describe a portion of reality very well. Does this mean we should discard the wave idea? No. It has it's uses too. Does this apparent paradox mean we should chuck all of quantum physics? Heck no. Quantum physics is very useful and lets us have fun things like cell phones.

Is God in control? Yes. Thinking of reality in this manner has its use. Are we responsible for our actions? Yes. Thinking of reality in this manner also has its use. It is possible the true reality is a third option that is difficult to grasp? Most certainly. Should we chuck all of Christianity over this mental paradox? Personally, I don't think so.

That's about all I can say. I know that is hard if not impossible for some to swallow who rely on their intelligence as their measure of worth and value and the means to control their lives. I can quite understand that because I've been there. Ultimately that choice is yours to make.
01/19/2009 04:19:28 PM · #191
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I think to sum up this argument, I'll go back to the electron analogy. Sometimes we just can't quite get the reality of the situation. Is an electron a particle? Well, sometimes it acts like it. Is it a wave? Well, sometimes it acts like it. The reality is likely a third option that isn't either a particle OR a wave, but is difficult for us to grasp. Does this mean we should chuck the particle idea? No. It has it's uses and can describe a portion of reality very well. Does this mean we should discard the wave idea? No. It has it's uses too. Does this apparent paradox mean we should chuck all of quantum physics? Heck no. Quantum physics is very useful and lets us have fun things like cell phones.



The bovine scatology is strong in this one.
01/19/2009 05:04:39 PM · #192
Originally posted by fir3bird:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I think to sum up this argument, I'll go back to the electron analogy. Sometimes we just can't quite get the reality of the situation. Is an electron a particle? Well, sometimes it acts like it. Is it a wave? Well, sometimes it acts like it. The reality is likely a third option that isn't either a particle OR a wave, but is difficult for us to grasp. Does this mean we should chuck the particle idea? No. It has it's uses and can describe a portion of reality very well. Does this mean we should discard the wave idea? No. It has it's uses too. Does this apparent paradox mean we should chuck all of quantum physics? Heck no. Quantum physics is very useful and lets us have fun things like cell phones.



The bovine scatology is strong in this one.


Heh. What can I say?

The Message that points to Christ on the Cross seems like sheer silliness to those hellbent on destruction, but for those on the way of salvation it makes perfect sense. This is the way God works, and most powerfully as it turns out. It's written,

I'll turn conventional wisdom on its head,
I'll expose so-called experts as crackpots.
So where can you find someone truly wise, truly educated, truly intelligent in this day and age? Hasn't God exposed it all as pretentious nonsense? Since the world in all its fancy wisdom never had a clue when it came to knowing God, God in his wisdom took delight in using what the world considered dumb—preaching, of all things!—to bring those who trust him into the way of salvation.

While Jews clamor for miraculous demonstrations and Greeks go in for philosophical wisdom, we go right on proclaiming Christ, the Crucified. Jews treat this like an anti-miracle—and Greeks pass it off as absurd. But to us who are personally called by God himself—both Jews and Greeks—Christ is God's ultimate miracle and wisdom all wrapped up in one. Human wisdom is so tinny, so impotent, next to the seeming absurdity of God. Human strength can't begin to compete with God's "weakness."

A little mental judo from Paul... :)
01/19/2009 06:46:36 PM · #193
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by fir3bird:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I think to sum up this argument, I'll go back to the electron analogy. Sometimes we just can't quite get the reality of the situation. Is an electron a particle? Well, sometimes it acts like it. Is it a wave? Well, sometimes it acts like it. The reality is likely a third option that isn't either a particle OR a wave, but is difficult for us to grasp. Does this mean we should chuck the particle idea? No. It has it's uses and can describe a portion of reality very well. Does this mean we should discard the wave idea? No. It has it's uses too. Does this apparent paradox mean we should chuck all of quantum physics? Heck no. Quantum physics is very useful and lets us have fun things like cell phones.



The bovine scatology is strong in this one.


Heh. What can I say?

The Message that points to Christ on the Cross seems like sheer silliness to those hellbent on destruction, but for those on the way of salvation it makes perfect sense. This is the way God works, and most powerfully as it turns out. It's written,

I'll turn conventional wisdom on its head,
I'll expose so-called experts as crackpots.
So where can you find someone truly wise, truly educated, truly intelligent in this day and age? Hasn't God exposed it all as pretentious nonsense? Since the world in all its fancy wisdom never had a clue when it came to knowing God, God in his wisdom took delight in using what the world considered dumb—preaching, of all things!—to bring those who trust him into the way of salvation.

While Jews clamor for miraculous demonstrations and Greeks go in for philosophical wisdom, we go right on proclaiming Christ, the Crucified. Jews treat this like an anti-miracle—and Greeks pass it off as absurd. But to us who are personally called by God himself—both Jews and Greeks—Christ is God's ultimate miracle and wisdom all wrapped up in one. Human wisdom is so tinny, so impotent, next to the seeming absurdity of God. Human strength can't begin to compete with God's "weakness."

A little mental judo from Paul... :)

Hmmm.
This sounds like anti-intellectual drivel to me. Shame on me and people like me for not just taking what preachers & the bible assert at face value. I have to ask myself what makes more sense; A god who sets up a system where people are more likely to become damned for seeking out truth with intellectual honesty (like most members of the National Academy of Sciences), or a god concept created by ancient & ignorant people who chose to be creative rather than admit they don't know some answers, a god concept that became a very useful tool for powerful people to lull lower classes into contentment?

Frankly, I now know more about Christianity and world religions than almost all of the religious people I know. I find the notion mindnumbingly absurd that there is a god with some "gotcha" strategy to screw with people like me who have taken the time to learn a few things about what is being asserted by religious leaders. So, God values ignorance over education? That is, in essence, what those verses are promoting.

Regarding quantum mechanics & electrons. We have crystal clear observations that lead us to practical applications such as cell phones. Successful experiments are not that same as fundamentally understanding quantum mechanics or relativity. Ask a physicist what we KNOW regarding quantum mechanics and that person could rattle off equations and observations, but ultimately would have to answer that there is a great deal we just don't understand about exactly why certain things happen the way they happen. The reason we don't throw that stuff out is because we have repeatable experiments that demonstrate important qualities of these things that lead to useful applications and help us refine our understanding of these phenomena. So, what experiment can I repeat to show that the god concept should be embraced? Is there something supernatural that alters our natural universe? If so, then where is the data? If not, then why does it matter & how do you think you know anything about it?

Data & science aside, I've tried Christianity. I've knocked & the door has remained tightly closed. I've also been inside church meetings where even people who publicly profess confidence in the existence of God, who say they have been touched directly by God, they still have deep seeded doubts about the existence of a god. Why is that? If there is a god who interacts with these individuals why is it that so many "believers" have a perpetual crisis of faith? It seems like believers are continually fighting with themselves to find a way to believe what they're told. If there was a god who was as amazing and convincing as believers claim to know in public, then why is there so much private hand wringing about struggling with faith?

I suspect it's because the whole fragile latticework of faith is built upon logical fallacies & held together with a mortar of denial, but the fear of losing ones comfort zone, including potential alienation from a loving community, that fear creates more cognitive dissonance than what is created by continued struggles with faith, so most people will just cling to belief. Me, I chose the only honest route I could and I was alienated by my "faith" community, so I get a wee bit bitter about the implication that I'm just hellbent on destruction because I want to think I'm wise or intelligent. Those were never motivations for me losing my faith and I seriously doubt they were motivations for any non-believer. It would have been far easier for me to stay a believer & becoming a non-believer is the most humbling thing that has ever happened to me.
01/19/2009 07:51:35 PM · #194
I've got another topic that's always made me wonder: The Holy Trinity

The 1st of the ten commandments says there is one one true God. If I remember my catechism, this was in context of many religions at the time that had several gods.

Then Christianity comes along and we get the Holy Trinity - God the father, Jesus his son, and the Holy Spirit.

This always seemed to contradict the 1st commandment.

tI was explained to me at one point that the is one God, but 3 personalities. That all 3 are part of the same deity.

That doesn't really work for me either. The New Testament has several passages where God the father refers to his Son with pride and Jesus pleads with his father and asking things of him and then the Holy Spirit working in yet other areas. Each seems very distinctive to me and not necessarily part and parcel of the same God entity.

Your take on this?
01/19/2009 08:04:07 PM · #195
Originally posted by JMart:

Snip the Rant


Wow. A lot boiled to the surface there. It pains me at the wounds people nurse that have been potentially inflicted by people of faith. If you can look me in the eye and tell me my worldview is a "latticework of faith built upon logical fallacies and held together with a mortar of denial" then so be it. You are entitled to your opinion. I've really tried to show the opposite. I am an intelligent, rational being who believes this crap because it makes sense to me, speaks to me, and helps me live my life to my fullest.

Doubt is doubt. The person who does not doubt at all is, I think, a person not devoting a lot of time to thinking. If you don't have doubts about some of the "big questions" of life, you aren't putting in enough time.

I'm curious, though, in an honest fashion, why you think people unable to perfectly describe their faith are intellectually bankrupt while you fully admit that Science, which one would think is full of much more black and white answers, "ultimately would have to answer that there is a great deal we just don't understand about exactly why certain things happen the way they happen." I'm not knocking Science. I am a man of Science. But it strikes me as a bit hypocritical.
01/19/2009 08:09:09 PM · #196
Originally posted by scarbrd:

I've got another topic that's always made me wonder: The Holy Trinity

The 1st of the ten commandments says there is one one true God. If I remember my catechism, this was in context of many religions at the time that had several gods.

Then Christianity comes along and we get the Holy Trinity - God the father, Jesus his son, and the Holy Spirit.

This always seemed to contradict the 1st commandment.

tI was explained to me at one point that the is one God, but 3 personalities. That all 3 are part of the same deity.

That doesn't really work for me either. The New Testament has several passages where God the father refers to his Son with pride and Jesus pleads with his father and asking things of him and then the Holy Spirit working in yet other areas. Each seems very distinctive to me and not necessarily part and parcel of the same God entity.

Your take on this?


Dr Seuss explains the Trinity:
There is one What with three Whos. The three Whos are God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is a Who with two Whats. The two Whats are: Fully Man. Fully God.

Frankly understanding the Trinity isn't super important to me. Jesus is God. That's the important part. The first chapter of John basically boils it down by saying, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. "

Message edited by author 2009-01-19 20:10:44.
01/19/2009 08:29:19 PM · #197
Originally posted by scarbrd:

I've got another topic that's always made me wonder: The Holy Trinity

The 1st of the ten commandments says there is one one true God. If I remember my catechism, this was in context of many religions at the time that had several gods.

Then Christianity comes along and we get the Holy Trinity - God the father, Jesus his son, and the Holy Spirit.

This always seemed to contradict the 1st commandment.

tI was explained to me at one point that the is one God, but 3 personalities. That all 3 are part of the same deity.

That doesn't really work for me either. The New Testament has several passages where God the father refers to his Son with pride and Jesus pleads with his father and asking things of him and then the Holy Spirit working in yet other areas. Each seems very distinctive to me and not necessarily part and parcel of the same God entity.

Your take on this?


Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Dr Seuss explains the Trinity:
There is one What with three Whos. The three Whos are God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is a Who with two Whats. The two Whats are: Fully Man. Fully God.

Frankly understanding the Trinity isn't super important to me. Jesus is God. That's the important part. The first chapter of John basically boils it down by saying, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. "

But you didn't explain that.

PLEASE take each of the parts of the Trinity and explain it.

You say Jesus is God......isn't Jesus the son of God?

What is the Holy Ghost/Spirit?

Is it an entity, like God, or an ethereal concept?

Part of the problem, at least for a lot of people like me is the rhetoric.

Is it one, or three?

Your Dr. Suess analogy really isn't helpful.....it kind of strengthens the fable aspecdt, at least in my mind.
01/19/2009 08:38:48 PM · #198
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Wow. A lot boiled to the surface there. It pains me at the wounds people nurse that have been potentially inflicted by people of faith.

Potentially???? Let's be honest and fair.......HAVE inflicted.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

If you can look me in the eye and tell me my worldview is a "latticework of faith built upon logical fallacies and held together with a mortar of denial" then so be it. You are entitled to your opinion. I've really tried to show the opposite. I am an intelligent, rational being who believes this crap because it makes sense to me, speaks to me, and helps me live my life to my fullest.

Of course anyone who can rationally look at the stories and the knowledge that there has been 2000 years to get the story straight, and STILL have all this confusion can do that, Jason.

Biblical scholars cannot agree on many major points, much less many of the minor points that cause much strife.......need we go into interpretations of abominations?

I have some lovely, fresh pork chops in the 'fridge that I'm cooking on the grille for dinner tomorrow night.....abomination, right?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Doubt is doubt. The person who does not doubt at all is, I think, a person not devoting a lot of time to thinking. If you don't have doubts about some of the "big questions" of life, you aren't putting in enough time.

Then it would stand to reason that any intelligent, educated person who hasn't been bitten by the God bug would have MUCH confusion understanding Faith if the fervid can't really explain it or NOT doubt, right?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm curious, though, in an honest fashion, why you think people unable to perfectly describe their faith are intellectually bankrupt while you fully admit that Science, which one would think is full of much more black and white answers, "ultimately would have to answer that there is a great deal we just don't understand about exactly why certain things happen the way they happen." I'm not knocking Science. I am a man of Science. But it strikes me as a bit hypocritical.

I don't think he's talking so much about people like you as the people who have more of a "Because it is so written." kind of attitude about Faith, and cannot communicate in an intelligent manner and have the fear thing going as well.

Just some thoughts.....8>)
01/19/2009 08:58:36 PM · #199
I probably wouldn't answer for JM, Jeb. He's obviously angry and he obviously cares and you might get run over on his way to me.

BTW, the word "potentially" was a polite way of circumventing self-inflicted wounds. Many people enjoy the role of Pariah. I'm not saying JM is one of them, but it's always a possibilty. That was my nice way of overlooking that.

To go back to the Trinity, there are examples that can be helpful, but only take them as far as they are helpful. The Irish like to point to a clover. It has one leaf with three lobes. How many leaves? One. How many lobes? Three. Very simplistic, but helpful.

Jesus is called the "son" of God to help denote something about their relationship. God does not have a penis. Jesus does not have a divine mom. John 1 tells us as long as God existed, so did Jesus. One never existed without the other. Perhaps you can think of them as different aspects of the same being. The phrase used to describe it is, "The one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
01/19/2009 09:07:18 PM · #200
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I think to sum up this argument, I'll go back to the electron analogy...

One very important distinction: educated people all over the world, regardless of culture, language or background, generally agree that electrons exist. It amazes me that people can utterly dismiss all the thousands of previous beliefs as mere myths (or 'pretentious nonsense') and then declare with apparent conviction that despite the world's religions historically batting .000, THIS one's real. I'm sure all the earlier believers felt the same way. "Of publishing a book on religion, my dear sir, I never had an idea. I should as soon think of writing for the reformation of Bedlam, as of the world of religious sects. Of these there must be, at least, ten thousand, every individual of every one of which believes all wrong but his own." - Thomas Jefferson

Speaking of whom, "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." - Jefferson
Pages:   ... ... [69]
Current Server Time: 03/28/2024 04:38:18 PM

Please log in or register to post to the forums.


Home - Challenges - Community - League - Photos - Cameras - Lenses - Learn - Prints! - Help - Terms of Use - Privacy - Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2024 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 03/28/2024 04:38:18 PM EDT.