scrap basic and advanced rule sets!

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

12/11/2008 06:53:25 PM · #26

I would like to see more expert challenges. There are alot of good photo edittors on this site and the thought of being able to move the head on a portrait shot to correct it would be great. I've always liked the idea of actually EDITING a photo the way a real photographer would.

Guess I'm asking for more expert challenges. Only rule should be that you can provide an original photo for every photo you use.

Judi

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/11/2008 07:25:50 PM · #27

This is a photography site. Photography includes editing as it always has and always will. The world of Photography is advancing in leaps and bounds. Unfortunately this site holds restrictions that is keeping the site from growing. You just need to look out there on the web and in galleries and magazines to see how much this craft has grown. So....DPC has a choice.

A - Keep the editing restrictions and limit its growth and in doing so fails to encourage new styles and talented photographers.
B - Open up the options of editing to allow for new talent and new skills to be shown and in the process help others to learn new skills.

I am not saying to abolish the Basic and Advanced...but I am saying to allow for the many different personalities that make up the Photography world.

If one does not like a certain editing style...they don't have to enter or vote on it. But this allows for everyone to be able to dabble in the areas that they enjoy and in the process, DPC will keep many of its talented photographers who seem to go beyond the realms of DPC and move to sites that will accommodate their preferred editing styles.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

12/11/2008 07:26:03 PM · #28

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by violinist123:
Who walks around pointing out how they improved by restricting their creative options.

It is a fairly common theme in most discussions of art and art history.

Majority of what might be considered classic pieces of art were painted under very strict constraints. The notion of artistic freedom is a pretty recent one. Most books on developing creativity focus quite heavily on the notion of the use of constraints.

Temporary, self-induced restrictions on technique can help one develop new ways of thinking creatively. However a) it should be the artist's decision b) applied to their own work only and c) should not remain in effect perpetually.

Which classic pieces of art were created under very strict constraints, and were they in place to promote the development of the artist or to appease some maniacal, tyrannical entity with a self serving agenda (e.g., the church). The notion of artistic freedom may be a recent one, as are any number of other 'freedoms', but that is hardly an argument for implementing a system from darker times.

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX DG Macro for Nikon

12/11/2008 08:09:33 PM · #29

Originally posted by Judi:

I second that motion, Judi for Queen!!!

sfalice

Canon PowerShot SX60 HS

12/11/2008 08:20:35 PM · #30

Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
When we change the rules we make a prominent announcement, usually beforehand. The link to the rules on every challenge submission page will go to the rule set in effect for that challenge -- which you certify you've read by checking the box required to submit your entry.

No one really reads that stuff until a newbie can't understand it and we have to explain it to them. It's like the rules were plain and simple and the site tried to combined them but it made things worse. The rules should be written out so there is no confusion.

ETA: this is when Scalvert jumps in and says "well why don't you write them" hahaha

Or some one of the other SC members, let's don't blame Shannon for everything.

this morning I made a suggestion in another thread that perhaps there could be established a group of English majors, writers and legal-types, who could interact with the Site Council in a private forum. In essence, the Site Council could say "this is what we want to accomplish" and the writing group could respond: "this is how you say it."

Give 'em time. Maybe this and other suggestions like it will prove helpful.

cryan

Nikon D700

12/11/2008 08:27:15 PM · #31

Yep, Judi for Queen.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

12/11/2008 08:30:04 PM · #32

too much regulations restricts growth

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

12/11/2008 08:59:12 PM · #33

Originally posted by crayon:

too much regulations restricts growth

Coffee Restricts growth :)

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

12/11/2008 09:00:25 PM · #34

Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:

Originally posted by crayon:
too much regulations restricts growth

Coffee Restricts growth :)

and that too, amen

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

12/11/2008 09:07:47 PM · #35

Originally posted by violinist123:

a/ is as I said, recent. b/ who's elses work are you going to be constraining other than your own? c/ is someone stopping you doing what you want to do, or just temporarily when you enter here?

Originally posted by violinist123:

Which classic pieces of art were created under very strict constraints, and were they in place to promote the development of the artist or to appease some maniacal, tyrannical entity with a self serving agenda (e.g., the church).

Most all of them, almost none of them and typically the later. People seem to have managed to be quite creative under those constraints, arguably more so than witnessed in more recent times.

cynthiann

Nikon D810

12/11/2008 09:07:55 PM · #36

How 'bout instead of mostly Basic and Advanced with the occasional Minimal and Expert, we try mostly Basic and Advanced (with the current Expert rules to widen the gray area) with the occasional Minimal and Master.

Sigma 85mm f/1.4 for Canon

12/11/2008 09:30:25 PM · #37

Originally posted by cynthiann:

If "master" means one possessing control or authority and An "expert" is someone widely recognized as a reliable source of technique or skill whose faculty for judging or deciding rightly, justly, or wisely is accorded authority and status by their peers or the public in a specific well distinguished domain. An expert, more generally, is a person with extensive knowledge or ability in a particular area of study.

I think it's safe to say that we need to have a new set of editing rules called... WAIT FOR IT.... WAIT FOR IT...

A Mas-pert challenge.

RKT

Canon EOS-60D

12/11/2008 10:05:27 PM · #38

Didn't we kinda talk about this back in August?

I know that thread originally started as an overlay sort of thing...then there was a poll...then...here we are again.

I don't mind the rules as they are, but would like, as many have hinted at then and now, some different restrictions-be-damned challenges, and some minimal too...every now and then.

Many of us are happy doing our creative stretching in side challenges and simply don't feel the need or feel stifled just because we can't do it in every challenge. Maybe it's a ribbon thing...don't know...don't have any.

...just a thought...

ericwoo

Nikon Z7II

Nikon NIKKOR Z 24-120 f/4 S

12/11/2008 10:07:28 PM · #39

Originally posted by cynthiann:

And then I could feel much better about walking away at the end of this current $25. I absolutely DETEST the expert rule set. If you want to make digital art, go to a digital art site and do it. I hate that crap. Clarify what's there and move the F on. I think that the primary problem is you have the same 16 people that put together the rule sets trying to rewrite the shit that no one could understand to begin with. Joe touched on it, and I've seen it in another forum or two, and I agree with the idea that SC members should be rotated in and out with term limits. That is where we get stagnant. Without some new blood flowing through every couple of years, we end up with the same BS over and over again.

And, while we're on gripes, the current size limit for challenge submissions is crap.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

12/11/2008 10:09:46 PM · #40

Originally posted by ericwoo:

And, while we're on gripes, the current size limit for challenge submissions is crap.

agree to that. 150kb is so 9600bps

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

12/11/2008 10:24:34 PM · #41

Originally posted by violinist123:

Originally posted by violinist123:
Who walks around pointing out how they improved by restricting their creative options.

Temporary, self-induced restrictions on technique can help one develop new ways of thinking creatively. However a) it should be the artist's decision...

If you're making a roundabout reference to creative restrictions here at DPChallenge, then my response is the "artist" has another "decision" they can make - that being where they choose to display their work.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

12/12/2008 09:14:09 AM · #42

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by violinist123:

Originally posted by violinist123:
Who walks around pointing out how they improved by restricting their creative options.

Temporary, self-induced restrictions on technique can help one develop new ways of thinking creatively. However a) it should be the artist's decision...

If you're making a roundabout reference to creative restrictions here at DPChallenge, then my response is the "artist" has another "decision" they can make - that being where they choose to display their work.

I fail to see how it was in anyway 'roundabout' when the conversation is obviously about rules at DPC. "Go elsewhere if you don't like it" is a valid response. One that seems to be exercised more frequently.

I just don't understand the opposition to the idea or any sort of compromise. What argument can be made that this is a learning oriented site is fine, but what sort of school keeps its students locked into the same grade quarter after quarter after quarter.

Or maybe that's where the "go elsewhere" part comes into play?

K3Master

Pentax K-3

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

12/12/2008 10:15:53 AM · #43

Originally posted by violinist123:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by violinist123:

Originally posted by violinist123:
Who walks around pointing out how they improved by restricting their creative options.

Temporary, self-induced restrictions on technique can help one develop new ways of thinking creatively. However a) it should be the artist's decision...

If you're making a roundabout reference to creative restrictions here at DPChallenge, then my response is the "artist" has another "decision" they can make - that being where they choose to display their work.

I fail to see how it was in anyway 'roundabout' when the conversation is obviously about rules at DPC. "Go elsewhere if you don't like it" is a valid response. One that seems to be exercised more frequently.

I just don't understand the opposition to the idea or any sort of compromise. What argument can be made that this is a learning oriented site is fine, but what sort of school keeps its students locked into the same grade quarter after quarter after quarter.

Or maybe that's where the "go elsewhere" part comes into play?

Part of the problem is using analogies like "locked in the same grade" as if enjoying the current rule-sets is somehow not good enough or lesser-class than a fully open editing rule-set is. There's nothing wrong with wanting a different level if that's what you enjoy, but since I've been here, I've all too frequently seen people putting it forward as this wonderful magical fix-all or higher level of learning or savior of DPC. So I understand the automatic defenses people put up when that's what they're faced with.

I'd love to see more frequent expert and minimal challenges, personally, as long as they didn't interfere with the advanced and basic too terribly much, but expert editing (or some other form of "anything goes" editing) is NOT a graduation to a higher grade, it's merely the difference between public school and a specialized art school. Two different focuses of learning, neither of which are inherently better than another.

Azrifel

Fujifilm X100VI

12/12/2008 10:41:45 AM · #44

Originally posted by Gordon:

Majority of what might be considered classic pieces of art were painted under very strict constraints. The notion of artistic freedom is a pretty recent one. Most books on developing creativity focus quite heavily on the notion of the use of constraints.

Yet it were the ones who broke all rules who are now recognized as the absolute masters.

Rembrandt broke the rules with his lighting and color choice, but most of all because he showed how people really looked. He did not make an ugly person more beautiful. And his nudes were against the moral of his day.

Frans Hals used a special painting technique which was also considered not normal for his time.

Vermeer used a camera obscura, a groundbreaking tool.

Jan Steen depicted drunken people and parties in flamboyant style, not quite accepted in the higher levels.

Van Gogh painted unrealistic depressed scenes, which nobody wanted. And then the whole group to which he belonged went into a new direction with surrealism and pointilistic techniques.

Many other painters are known for their perfection in depiction, style, light and color use. But the true masters broke the rules and followed their creative feeling. (Or in some cases where schizofrenic psychopats).

Beetle

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/12/2008 10:56:26 AM · #45

We have such a huge membership here, and so many different skill levels and interests,

we need to INCREASE the editing choices given to us, not decrease them!

smardaz

12/12/2008 11:09:04 AM · #46

Originally posted by Judi:

I wish I had written this! I wholeheartedly agree! well written Judi (but I can't vote for her as Queen or I will get in trouble with my own Queen!)

ETA: I also wonder how many old favorites who have left would come back if they knew things had opened up this way?, Don't tell me Langdon is not intrigued by the thought of returning money....

Message edited by author 2008-12-12 11:10:59.

shalrath

Nikon D200

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

12/12/2008 11:14:22 AM · #47

Originally posted by Gordon:

I personally think expert goes too far, for my tastes, by a long way.

Minimal ignores a lot of the realities of camera design, too.

So neither of those two rulesets seem to promote improvement in photography, really - without either throwing in a whole load of stuff that I wouldn't consider photography, or being so restrictive as to be an interesting academic exercise, but mostly missing the point.

I know plenty of people disagree with this on both ends, which is why the current rulesets make some sense (if they were actually used in a reasonable rotation)

Quote, unquote.

ambaker

Google Glass Google Glass

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

12/12/2008 11:16:48 AM · #48

Originally posted by Beetle:

We have such a huge membership here, and so many different skill levels and interests,

we need to INCREASE the editing choices given to us, not decrease them!

Now there ya go! I tend towards the minimal side of editing. But I see some really amazing stuff done with the heavy editing. I'd hate to see the site go all one way or the other. But, it seems that there has been a rash of DQ events that have prompted a lot of firey discussion.

Alternatively, we could have a special open challenge each week. The paying members could take turns writing the rules for this special challenge, and deal with the images that did not meet the rules.

This would serve a three fold purpose.

1. Increase the number of paying members, as other people want to make up the rules too.
2. More flavors of challenges. More interesting rule sets. And sooner or later you are guaranteed that as a paying member, the challenge will have rules exactly to your liking.
3. We might see better written rules, and if nothing else other people will understand what the SC goes through each week.