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10/09/2008 05:37:04 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by metatate:
After reading this, I wanted to go through the results and see if I agreed. I don't think I do. The insinuation here is that processing makes images score higher. This might be true but the "WINNERS" tend to be very strong images without excessive processing.
I have to say that "commercial", well-lit photos like this:
tend to do just as well or better than dramatically processed images. I looked through the ribbon images in recent challenges and processing doesn't see to be a huge factor in those that were in the top 5. Maybe it's just me and my understanding of "over-processing"?
Maybe someone could show me an example (without offending the photog)?
Originally posted by SteveJ:
I agree that unless a photo is processed to hell in a hand cart, it just doesn't make the grade here anymore. A good image, well exposed and interesting composition, but not processed to any great extent will not do well. Mediocre shots with excessive PP seem the order of the day and score well. |
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I have to agree. There are many here who don't like heavy processing and will vote down because of it but nobody votes something down simply because it has untouched natural light or studio light so long as the technicals are deemed good (i.e. no blowouts, sharp, good tones, etc). So it is the natural look, the minimally edited photo (at least in appearance) that has the advantage going in. Now if the heavily processed photo has the better concept, meets the challenge better then it may win. It's like in boxing. In order to beat the champ you have to be better than the champ as ties go to the champ (i.e. the natural looking shots).
P.S. People seem to forget Joey Lawerence didn't win that many ribbons when he was here. Although if he had continued he probably would but only because his photography in general has gotten better.
Message edited by author 2008-10-09 17:41:22.
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10/09/2008 05:45:53 PM · #52 |
This one's over the top, mundane...
That's a bad-ass shot. Totally awesome.
Message edited by author 2008-10-09 17:48:14. |
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10/09/2008 05:47:05 PM · #53 |
Btw, didn't we have this discussion recently? Oh I know I started that thread. I seem to recall getting slammed for it too. Must be a yanko thing. :P
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10/09/2008 05:48:54 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
This one's over the top, mundane...
That's a bad-ass shot. Totally awesome. |
That's probably because it was found and untouched by yanko's hands (so to speak). :P
Message edited by author 2008-10-09 17:49:23.
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10/09/2008 06:49:31 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Btw, didn't we have this discussion recently? Oh I know I started that thread. I seem to recall getting slammed for it too. Must be a yanko thing. :P |
Yah, we had a "down with anything Richard says" meeting and specifically mentioned that thread, lol!! :P
Actually, it was positively referenced earlier. |
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10/09/2008 06:59:23 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Originally posted by yanko:
Btw, didn't we have this discussion recently? Oh I know I started that thread. I seem to recall getting slammed for it too. Must be a yanko thing. :P |
Yah, we had a "down with anything Richard says" meeting and specifically mentioned that thread, lol!! :P
Actually, it was positively referenced earlier. |
Ha!
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10/09/2008 07:31:50 PM · #57 |
Uhhh, just to get back to the original gist of this thread...Danny, to say you just say you won a 'ribbon or two' is like me saying I've ridden a horse or two worth $100,000 or two! Jeez! :-) (And horsey people out there...ever heard of h/js Popeye K, Nikita K, DownBeat and Kudos? Rest my case).
I'm pretty much a middle-of-the-road photog in terms of this site. I often go against the grain so I don't get the DPC-friendly votes you need to win. All I can say is I have my little pp routine, and I pretty much stick with it, and do my best to take better pics as opposed to relying on heavy pp. And if I ever come within sniffing distance of a ribbon that ain't brown, I'll consider myself incredibly lucky. |
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10/15/2008 10:10:00 AM · #58 |
crabappl3 the catch here is that you can end up falling into the trap of only shooting shots that score well with the DPC voting public and fall away from your own artistic vision. It's a double edged sword for sure, but somewhere in between should be your own style and a photograph that stands on it's own, and scores well.
I'm relatively (10 months?) new to this site and photography as well for the same amount of time and believe the above said to be true... I hadn't carefully observed such spectacular images before, especially of landscapes, nor had I any idea of HDR and other processes. For about a month I was in a panic to learn the technicalities of them, but alas, I'm an idiot. Even now with the minimal PP skills I have, I catch myself wondering if I can 'save a pic'...In short, I found myself veering in a direction I feel one shouldn't venture on before working on core fundamentals of capturing or putting together an image...(as far as photography is concerned, opposed to Visual/graphic art. I have so much to learn... Not be misunderstood, PP and even heavy PP has worked amazingly for images by creating a certain effect or by magnifying their 'soul' ... sometimes I feel it can smother it.
Message edited by author 2008-10-15 10:12:18. |
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10/15/2008 10:53:08 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by Iraklis:
crabappl3 the catch here is that you can end up falling into the trap of only shooting shots that score well with the DPC voting public and fall away from your own artistic vision. It's a double edged sword for sure, but somewhere in between should be your own style and a photograph that stands on it's own, and scores well.
I'm relatively (10 months?) new to this site and photography as well for the same amount of time and believe the above said to be true... I hadn't carefully observed such spectacular images before, especially of landscapes, nor had I any idea of HDR and other processes. For about a month I was in a panic to learn the technicalities of them, but alas, I'm an idiot. Even now with the minimal PP skills I have, I catch myself wondering if I can 'save a pic'...In short, I found myself veering in a direction I feel one shouldn't venture on before working on core fundamentals of capturing or putting together an image...(as far as photography is concerned, opposed to Visual/graphic art. I have so much to learn... Not be misunderstood, PP and even heavy PP has worked amazingly for images by creating a certain effect or by magnifying their 'soul' ... sometimes I feel it can smother it. |
I hope you don't move an inch for DPC. You're one of my favorite photographers here. |
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10/15/2008 12:31:29 PM · #60 |
-danny
Overall, I have the opinion challenge "quality" has made steady improvement over time. Even better are the marvelous side challenges which have contributed greatly to the body of work here. It is in no small part due to those spirits of the site, those lovers of this visual communication - like yourself, whose individual creative efforts comprise this community , also worth to mention, the increasing betterment of hardware and software refinement which users employ - your new D300 certainly may be an example.
Style is much broader in my mind than a narrow distinction of either the technical in-camera perfect exposure against process/print, & other components one might employ to edit. Both are linked, both are chosen as tools to craft an individual's vision.
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10/16/2008 09:48:48 AM · #61 |
| Thank you Don. That's very encouraging... |
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10/16/2008 10:33:20 AM · #62 |
| I am here to learn and become a better "photographer" and also view beautiful places and things that I would never have seen before. But....it is discussions like this that makes me just want to quit trying to better my self. My photos are not great by no means...I'm learning.....my pp is not great but I'm learning. This kind of discussion makes me fill like, if I haven't reached a certain level of knowledge of photography, my photos do not measure up and are not the quality they should be for this site. It is very discourageing to me. Yes, I would hope to someday reach the point where they are great "quality" but I have to get there some how, and the way to do that is try, try, try, and have experianced people, like you, help me do that and maybe someday I will feel like I can join the quality crowd. |
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10/16/2008 10:52:04 AM · #63 |
 Meow - Yah know, in the end it's all up to what makes YOU the photographer happy. It's great to create images that others appreciate, but it's still personal. In the end, a photographer has never learned all there is to know, thus we just have to be happy with the skill levels we attain and the images we create or keep on pushing the envelope to learn more. We will never ever know it all and have accomplished all there is to photography, so it is an on-going experience! Perhaps those no longer here have evolved photographically (notice I didn't say developed, muahahah)a person level that drives them to try other things and the validation of a "great DPC score" is no longer their goal.
My 2º! (Probably get change back...) |
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10/16/2008 01:15:03 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Meow I am here to learn and become a better "photographer" and also view beautiful places and things that I would never have seen before. But....it is discussions like this that makes me just want to quit trying to better my self. My photos are not great by no means...I'm learning.....my pp is not great but I'm learning. This kind of discussion makes me fill like, if I haven't reached a certain level of knowledge of photography, my photos do not measure up and are not the quality they should be for this site. It is very discourageing to me. Yes, I would hope to someday reach the point where they are great "quality" but I have to get there some how, and the way to do that is try, try, try, and have experianced people, like you, help me do that and maybe someday I will feel like I can join the quality crowd. |
To the OP this is a sentiment that I and I think many others share when we read posts like yours, Perhaps the reason the site seems different is that things have changed in the world of photography, first the cameras are cheap enough that even us working Joe's can afford what just 4 years ago would have been a top of the line pro camera, software has gotten cheap enough that even us blue collar sweat hogs can afford to buy it. Some of us are actually new at this and are learning to be better, we enjoy the challenges and see them as opportunities to try new things and focus on new subjects that we might not have noticed before, even more important is the feedback that we hope to get.
Comments like yours, as wrapped up in saccharine BS as they are, really come off as elitist and exclusionary. Like some old rich guys at the local golf club bemoaning all the new young members. It is people with attitudes like yours and comments like those you make that can make a community like this a negative and noninclusive place. I am sure there was a time when your own photos might have been less than stellar as well(or perhaps you are some sort of prodigy with a camera), we all go through it, some choose to help others with their journey while others choose to look down on those same people with disdain and disgust.
I for one think you need to make a choice, either join the community that has grown and changed in your time away as an enthusiastic and open participant with an eye to the future and a positive attitude or Go away and leave us alone. We don't want people like you around to spoil our enjoyment and love of the adventure of learning to take great photographs, we know we aren't pros and we certainly don't need to hear it from the likes of you.
Message edited by author 2008-10-16 13:17:26.
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10/16/2008 03:14:18 PM · #65 |
| That wasn't my post, but Sheila's. :) |
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10/16/2008 03:48:57 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
So I was a very active member on this site back in 2002 - 2004 and entered a lot of challenges and won a ribbon or two. Well the portrait challenge sparked my interest, so I dusted off my camera and took a photo for it and entered the challenge. While I'm scoring fairly well, I have since gone through and voted on the current challenges and have observed that in the Members Challenge we have a lot of bad post processing (HDR being the majority of them), and in the Open Challenges a lot of the shots seem to lack style, and the photographic element that makes a photo more than a 'snap-shot'.
Now I'm not trying to ruffle feathers here, but have any of the other 'old-timers' noticed that overall the image quality of entry submissions have declined over the years? I'm not saying there aren't some great photographs in the current challenges, because I did score some really high scores, but overall the site seems to have leveled off to mediocrity in my opinion.
-danny |
I agree - the ratio of why people are here and why they enter Challenges has changed.
More energy spent on 'pre-processing' (in camera) would be good to see.
More Minimal Editing Challenges - but with 720 maybe.
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10/16/2008 04:15:40 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by macrothing:
Originally posted by crabappl3:
So I was a very active member on this site back in 2002 - 2004 and entered a lot of challenges and won a ribbon or two. Well the portrait challenge sparked my interest, so I dusted off my camera and took a photo for it and entered the challenge. While I'm scoring fairly well, I have since gone through and voted on the current challenges and have observed that in the Members Challenge we have a lot of bad post processing (HDR being the majority of them), and in the Open Challenges a lot of the shots seem to lack style, and the photographic element that makes a photo more than a 'snap-shot'.
Now I'm not trying to ruffle feathers here, but have any of the other 'old-timers' noticed that overall the image quality of entry submissions have declined over the years? I'm not saying there aren't some great photographs in the current challenges, because I did score some really high scores, but overall the site seems to have leveled off to mediocrity in my opinion.
-danny |
I agree - the ratio of why people are here and why they enter Challenges has changed.
More energy spent on 'pre-processing' (in camera) would be good to see.
More Minimal Editing Challenges - but with 720 maybe. |
I don't know there seems to be plenty who spend a lot of time setting up shots. The problem I see is too many simply take the challenge as a high school assignment, that is treat it as if you don't care and you have better things to do. If the assignment is to shoot a tree most people will just look back at what trees were shot before and how they were shot and go out and duplicate it and turn it in. If I was grading this assignment as a teacher it would get Fs for copying/cheating. I'd write a little note saying next time use your own words and tell your own story. |
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10/16/2008 04:23:01 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by yanko:
The problem I see is too many simply take the challenge as a high school assignment, that is treat it as if you don't care and you have better things to do. |
In the real world, a DPC virtual ribbon is a lot less important than a high school assignment.
The rules don't list acceptable motives for entering. |
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10/16/2008 05:06:16 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by yanko:
The problem I see is too many simply take the challenge as a high school assignment, that is treat it as if you don't care and you have better things to do. |
In the real world, a DPC virtual ribbon is a lot less important than a high school assignment.
The rules don't list acceptable motives for entering. |
Oh I know. Most people use this site just for fun or to learn the basics, hence why we get the quality we do. For those starting out a lot of this stuff will look great. It always looks great the first time you see something but once you keep at it and grow you realize how empty these photos are once that newness wears off. If we have any desire to improve the quality of images here then the things that I mentioned should be encouraged more. If you have any desire to be a very good photographer finding your own voice is much more important than anything else.
Message edited by author 2008-10-16 17:09:52. |
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10/16/2008 05:48:20 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by yanko:
If you have any desire to be a very good photographer finding your own voice is much more important than anything else. |
HEAR HEAR!!!!
( but I do agree that the overall quality since I joined has certainly declined ) |
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10/16/2008 08:45:39 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by jhomrighaus:
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Meow I am here to learn and become a better "photographer" and also view beautiful places and things that I would never have seen before. But....it is discussions like this that makes me just want to quit trying to better my self. My photos are not great by no means...I'm learning.....my pp is not great but I'm learning. This kind of discussion makes me fill like, if I haven't reached a certain level of knowledge of photography, my photos do not measure up and are not the quality they should be for this site. It is very discourageing to me. Yes, I would hope to someday reach the point where they are great "quality" but I have to get there some how, and the way to do that is try, try, try, and have experianced people, like you, help me do that and maybe someday I will feel like I can join the quality crowd. |
To the OP this is a sentiment that I and I think many others share when we read posts like yours, Perhaps the reason the site seems different is that things have changed in the world of photography, first the cameras are cheap enough that even us working Joe's can afford what just 4 years ago would have been a top of the line pro camera, software has gotten cheap enough that even us blue collar sweat hogs can afford to buy it. Some of us are actually new at this and are learning to be better, we enjoy the challenges and see them as opportunities to try new things and focus on new subjects that we might not have noticed before, even more important is the feedback that we hope to get.
Comments like yours, as wrapped up in saccharine BS as they are, really come off as elitist and exclusionary. Like some old rich guys at the local golf club bemoaning all the new young members. It is people with attitudes like yours and comments like those you make that can make a community like this a negative and noninclusive place. I am sure there was a time when your own photos might have been less than stellar as well(or perhaps you are some sort of prodigy with a camera), we all go through it, some choose to help others with their journey while others choose to look down on those same people with disdain and disgust.
I for one think you need to make a choice, either join the community that has grown and changed in your time away as an enthusiastic and open participant with an eye to the future and a positive attitude or Go away and leave us alone. We don't want people like you around to spoil our enjoyment and love of the adventure of learning to take great photographs, we know we aren't pros and we certainly don't need to hear it from the likes of you. |
Well you've said a mouthful, but I would like to just to say a small bit about what you've said in your post...
I am an average Joe who lives paycheck to paycheck. I do not have huge resources to go out and buy a new camera every time a new one comes out. Yes, I have been paid to take photographs, but I am by no means a 'pro'.
Comments like yours, as wrapped up in saccharine BS as they are, really come off as elitist and exclusionary.
Um, there was no elitist, exclusionary, saccharine BS in my post. I was merely stating my opinion. I was not pointing out anyone nor was I saying anyone was below me. I am not looking down on anyone, and yes, my photos sucked when I started, and I learned a lot by giving and receiving critiques.
We don't want people like you around to spoil our enjoyment and love of the adventure of learning to take great photographs, we know we aren't pros and we certainly don't need to hear it from the likes of you.
And not to say that I am a good photographer compared to some people on this site, but don't be wishing the better photographers away because if you really study their work, and read their comments to other photographers and yourself and learn from them, your own work will improve greatly... I know first hand, because that's what I did to better my own photography.
Relax, I'm not spoiling anyone's fun, I'm just hoping to get people to look at their own work and see if what they're submitting is their best effort. If it is, great, if not, then what can you as the photographer to better your own work?
Peace,
-danny |
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10/16/2008 09:12:44 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Well you've said a mouthful, but I would like to just to say a small bit about what you've said in your post...
I am an average Joe who lives paycheck to paycheck. I do not have huge resources to go out and buy a new camera every time a new one comes out. Yes, I have been paid to take photographs, but I am by no means a 'pro'.
Comments like yours, as wrapped up in saccharine BS as they are, really come off as elitist and exclusionary.
Um, there was no elitist, exclusionary, saccharine BS in my post. I was merely stating my opinion. I was not pointing out anyone nor was I saying anyone was below me. I am not looking down on anyone, and yes, my photos sucked when I started, and I learned a lot by giving and receiving critiques.
We don't want people like you around to spoil our enjoyment and love of the adventure of learning to take great photographs, we know we aren't pros and we certainly don't need to hear it from the likes of you.
And not to say that I am a good photographer compared to some people on this site, but don't be wishing the better photographers away because if you really study their work, and read their comments to other photographers and yourself and learn from them, your own work will improve greatly... I know first hand, because that's what I did to better my own photography.
Relax, I'm not spoiling anyone's fun, I'm just hoping to get people to look at their own work and see if what they're submitting is their best effort. If it is, great, if not, then what can you as the photographer to better your own work?
Peace,
-danny |
Yet you seem to overlook the most obvious reason for the change in the site and that is that it has attracted a lot of new photographers who are attempting to learn to be better. The only way to become a better photographer is to take more photos and this site SEEMED to be about taking photos and submitting them for the contests and in theory gaining comments on how to improve. It would seem counterproductive of someone such as yourself who proclaims a desire to have people become better photographers to suggest that those same people should perhaps not be submitting photos to the contests because they are not good enough(which frankly is what you implied in your original post). The cycle of growth and change is constant, if all you are after is top notch photography then perhaps you should join a different site or submit to National Geographic. If however you are interested in promoting this hobby and sharing your love and commitment to it then perhaps you should refrain from putting down all the people who are currently exploring this exciting hobby as you have done with this thread, Instead perhaps you could devote some time to providing some of those comments which seem to be in such short supply based on the 7 or 8 challenges I have submitted to. I as a new photographer see each new challenge as a personal challenge to myself to find a way to interpret the subject and I am eager to learn what I can do to improve, Thus I enter as many challenges as I can which I am sure has degraded the overall quality of the photos on this site, yet I feel that I have improved.
I guess my overall and long winded point is that there are two ways to approach your issue, one is to make the comment you made about how the quality of images is declining, which carries a strong note of disapproval and negativity(especially someone with so many winning photos)
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You could have commented about how many new photographers the site has attracted and about how refreshing that is and perhaps made some suggestions about some of the most common errors you have noticed, which would send a positive and inclusive message.
Were here to learn and enjoy, not to bee told that we are bringing down the quality of the site.
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10/16/2008 09:38:32 PM · #73 |
I'll just crawl back in my hole and not bother y'all.
Sorry that I've asked the community at large to look at what they're submitting to see if it's entered just to enter and get a score, or entered as their best for that challenge and to work on expanding on their skills.
Shoot for yourself and for fun... when you trap yourself into just shooting for a challenge or the DPC style that scores well, you'll quit enjoying it... and remember... lip stick looks best on humans, not pigs ;-)
-danny
Oh, and I just read back some on this thread... didn't realize how much I got bashed... such a loving place y'all have here.
Message edited by author 2008-10-16 21:46:08. |
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10/16/2008 09:48:11 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
I've asked the community at large to look at what they're submitting to see if it's entered just to enter and get a score, or entered as their best for that challenge and to work on expanding on their skills.
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The fallacy, though, exists in believing it has to be one or the other. Either you enter just to enter OR you enter your best to work on expanding skills.
I've done both. Sometimes I enter just to be able to "play." Sometimes I have a serious entry.
And, I think there is room for both in each and every challenge. |
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10/16/2008 09:54:31 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
I'll just crawl back in my hole and not bother y'all.
Sorry that I've asked the community at large to look at what they're submitting to see if it's entered just to enter and get a score, or entered as their best for that challenge and to work on expanding on their skills.
Shoot for yourself and for fun... when you trap yourself into just shooting for a challenge or the DPC style that scores well, you'll quit enjoying it... and remember... lip stick looks best on humans, not pigs ;-)
-danny
Oh, and I just read back some on this thread... didn't realize how much I got bashed... such a loving place y'all have here. |
My issue was not with WHAT you asked, My issue was the WAY you chose to ask it.
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