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08/15/2008 09:01:59 AM · #301 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Ok I watched the video. I got to say that I'm all for it BUT...
In the first sentence of the narration it says that this is to "ease prisoners at the end of their sentence back into society".
So I think we're missing something here. This prison (at least from the vid) is not for the long term. It is for prisoners who served almost all of their sentence to now be moved to this new place to get them skills to move back into soceity.
This if fine with me. But it was presented throughout this thread as "the" prison that Norway uses for its convicted. But unless I misunderstood, it is just for the ones who are nearly done with their sentence. |
Thanks for sharing your views. Yes, inmates serve most of their sentence in an ordinary prison and are only moved to the special camp for the last months (I mentioned this specifically in my posts at 08/14/2008 06:57:41 PM, 08/13/2008 11:48:57 PM, 08/13/2008 11:08:36 PM, for example). |
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08/15/2008 09:04:50 AM · #302 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
(4. The woman thought her children were in danger and that they would only be save in heaven. That's why she killed them. Guess where she got these ideas. If you take religion and her fears seriously, her actions make complete sense.) |
Thou shall not kill.
'Worry not about to tommorow'
Just two random 'religious' thoughts from my bible..before I head to work.
Don't try to paint this as religions fault...this lady needs to be removed from society. I don't understand why ANYONE would want to pick up the tab for taking care of this MURDERER for her entire life. Who cares if she 'learns how to deal'? |
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08/15/2008 09:10:40 AM · #303 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
(4. The woman thought her children were in danger and that they would only be save in heaven. That's why she killed them. Guess where she got these ideas. If you take religion and her fears seriously, her actions make complete sense.) |
Thou shall not kill.
'Worry not about to tommorow'
Just two random 'religious' thoughts from my bible..before I head to work.
Don't try to paint this as religions fault... |
She was obviously religiously motivated (in part), otherwise she wouldn't have gotten the idea that she was sending her children to heaven. But let's not turn this into a discussion about religion (again...).
Originally posted by egamble:
I don't understand why ANYONE would want to pick up the tab for taking care of this MURDERER for her entire life. Who cares if she 'learns how to deal'? |
What do you suggest we do with her? Think about your Bible quote above and about what Jesus would propose... |
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08/15/2008 09:25:02 AM · #304 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
What do you suggest we do with her? Think about your Bible quote above and about what Jesus would propose... |
Yeah...he spoke about personal responsibilities to God. The Government has no such responsibilities...it's responsibility to keep it's citizens safe from harm. |
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08/15/2008 09:26:07 AM · #305 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
What do you suggest we do with her? Think about your Bible quote above and about what Jesus would propose... |
Yeah...he spoke about personal responsibilities to God. The Government has no such responsibilities...it's responsibility to keep it's citizens safe from harm. |
So what do you suggest we do with her? |
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08/15/2008 09:29:57 AM · #306 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
What do you suggest we do with her? Think about your Bible quote above and about what Jesus would propose... |
Yeah...he spoke about personal responsibilities to God. The Government has no such responsibilities... |
Ahhh... so wtf is Bush doing leading your country down the path of theocracy? And, if government has no responsibility to gods of any kind, I guess governments can just do whatever the hell they please with immunity, right? Like, say, in Sierra Leone, Darfur, the Balkans, Georgia....
Your sense of justice as prescribed by your bloodthirsty tribalist god is becoming all the more clear. |
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08/15/2008 09:30:54 AM · #307 |
Originally posted by Judi:
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by egamble:
Check it out
I really hope they let this woman out...and work in a daycare somewhere. I bet she just needs a hug. |
i bet you one roll of film that someone's gonna say "but that's an isolated case!" :p |
I think you got your roll of film!! |
one for Judi, one for Eric, and one more for Ms Steffi K (for being our example)
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08/15/2008 09:31:47 AM · #308 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
What do you suggest we do with her? Think about your Bible quote above and about what Jesus would propose... |
Yeah...he spoke about personal responsibilities to God. The Government has no such responsibilities...it's responsibility to keep it's citizens safe from harm. |
So what do you suggest we do with her? |
I think Eric earlier already suggested that she be sent to work in some daycare somewhere, lol |
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08/15/2008 09:43:56 AM · #309 |
Just found a theory about moral development you might find interesting:
Kohlberg's stages of moral development
Please also consider the "Heinz dilemma" further down the page. How would you answer it? Is the husband "evil" for stealing? Should he be punished?
People here suggesting things like "If there were no punishment, I'd go rob a bank." are obviously stuck in stage two of the moral development according to Kohlberg. |
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08/15/2008 01:17:00 PM · #310 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Ahhh... so wtf is Bush doing leading your country down the path of theocracy? And, if government has no responsibility to gods of any kind, I guess governments can just do whatever the hell they please with immunity, right? Like, say, in Sierra Leone, Darfur, the Balkans, Georgia....
Your sense of justice as prescribed by your bloodthirsty tribalist god is becoming all the more clear. |
Ask him (bush)...not me. How can I know what any man is thinking?
If you would pay attention ,intead of trying to satisfy your apparent bloodthirst for 'christian' blood, you would see that I can't stand what the current Republicans have done to our government.
As for your absurd comments about Darfur..etc. The responsibility of the government is to protect its citizenry..if it fails that responsibility, the people should abolish that government and institute one that will uphold its primary responsibility. |
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08/15/2008 01:18:34 PM · #311 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
So what do you suggest we do with her? |
We can split the burden of this woman. I will take her out for a nice dinner, tell her she looks pretty, pat her on the head and show her that she is a special human being DEEP DOWN INSIDE.
Then she can babysit YOUR kids, nephews/neices, grandchildren...etc.
Deal? |
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08/15/2008 01:25:00 PM · #312 |
âA government big enough to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have.â
-Thomas Jefferson
Just wanted to insert a quote...now back to the debate at hand. |
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08/15/2008 01:31:04 PM · #313 |
Back to the woman with the children. It is and was obvious to me that the woman is suffering from some sort of mental disease. Parents do not normally mass kill their offspring. Ironically in this case, as she appears to be suffering from schizophrenia, which can be passed on to children, a logical step for evolution would be for her to kill her offspring and herself, thereby preventing the genes responsible from continuing along that blood line. Also, they are her children, I find it ironic that the majority can dictate how you raise your children but not the actual parents. Again this is unlike I believe every other species of the world.
Anyhow, it is so blindingly obvious to me that she needs at absolute-minimum medication and most likely a very long stay in a mental hospital that I cannot understand why it was even brought up.
It pains me at the lack of education most people have with mental illness and how quickly they push it aside to grasp at any symptoms of the disease. Mr. Smith sees police officers as giant monsters with tentacles and shoots one, he gets life in prison, surrounded by giant monsters with tentacles and he kills himself, people rejoice, others call him a coward. Easy when you have not been there. Always easier to assume you have had the hardest life possible and everyone needs to get in line behind you.
Another thing that pains me is the opposite direction society is taking on mental illness, there used to be hospitals dedicated to mental diseases in all their forms. Now it is a small wing with a max stay of a week in the basement of most hospitals. From someone who worked in the nursing home business she says over half of the elderly sent to them have mental issues severe enough to present a real threat to others however they are legally required to accept these people until they act out, at which point they are stuck with family, or out on the street.
If someone, without their knowledge has a deadly disease and passed it to another, they would not be called a murderer. However, if it is a mental disease, people grab their torches and ask for the harshest penalties possible.
It frankly makes me sick to live in this world, every single day, with people like some of you. No wonder I turned into an anti-social misfit, I don't want any part of a society that glorifies the suffering of others, for any reason. That glorifies ignorance and hate. The glorifies fairy-tales over frank reality.
Thou shalt not murder... except when it is your children dishonoring you, when it is a gay man, when it is a sodomite, when god says it is ok, when the person has sex outside wedlock... yes, thou shalt not murder... maybe the greatest mental disease of them all. I think some of you have one hell of a log in your eye...
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08/15/2008 01:38:56 PM · #314 |
Originally posted by togtog:
Back to the woman with the children. It is and was obvious to me that the woman is suffering from some sort of mental disease. Parents do not normally mass kill their offspring. Ironically in this case, as she appears to be suffering from schizophrenia, which can be passed on to children, a logical step for evolution would be for her to kill her offspring and herself, thereby preventing the genes responsible from continuing along that blood line. Also, they are her children, I find it ironic that the majority can dictate how you raise your children but not the actual parents. Again this is unlike I believe every other species of the world.
Anyhow, it is so blindingly obvious to me that she needs at absolute-minimum medication and most likely a very long stay in a mental hospital that I cannot understand why it was even brought up.
It pains me at the lack of education most people have with mental illness and how quickly they push it aside to grasp at any symptoms of the disease. Mr. Smith sees police officers as giant monsters with tentacles and shoots one, he gets life in prison, surrounded by giant monsters with tentacles and he kills himself, people rejoice, others call him a coward. Easy when you have not been there. Always easier to assume you have had the hardest life possible and everyone needs to get in line behind you.
Another thing that pains me is the opposite direction society is taking on mental illness, there used to be hospitals dedicated to mental diseases in all their forms. Now it is a small wing with a max stay of a week in the basement of most hospitals. From someone who worked in the nursing home business she says over half of the elderly sent to them have mental issues severe enough to present a real threat to others however they are legally required to accept these people until they act out, at which point they are stuck with family, or out on the street.
If someone, without their knowledge has a deadly disease and passed it to another, they would not be called a murderer. However, if it is a mental disease, people grab their torches and ask for the harshest penalties possible.
It frankly makes me sick to live in this world, every single day, with people like some of you. No wonder I turned into an anti-social misfit, I don't want any part of a society that glorifies the suffering of others, for any reason. That glorifies ignorance and hate. The glorifies fairy-tales over frank reality.
Thou shalt not murder... except when it is your children dishonoring you, when it is a gay man, when it is a sodomite, when god says it is ok, when the person has sex outside wedlock... yes, thou shalt not murder... maybe the greatest mental disease of them all. I think some of you have one hell of a log in your eye... |
They might be sick...but if their 'disease' causes them to harm other people, to takes lives or to inflict upon the 'rights' of another person..they forfeit their right to live in society. Their fault or no...it doesn't matter. They do not have the right to inflict havoc and damage upon the rest of the populace...just because it hurts YOUR feelings. |
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08/15/2008 01:40:55 PM · #315 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
So what do you suggest we do with her? |
We can split the burden of this woman. I will take her out for a nice dinner, tell her she looks pretty, pat her on the head and show her that she is a special human being DEEP DOWN INSIDE.
Then she can babysit YOUR kids, nephews/neices, grandchildren...etc.
Deal? |
I asked you a serious question. Would you please be so kind and provide a serious answer? If you don't agree with policies other people suggest you should provide a better alternative. |
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08/15/2008 01:41:45 PM · #316 |
Originally posted by SDW:
âA government big enough to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have.â
-Thomas Jefferson
Just wanted to insert a quote...now back to the debate at hand. |
"A government that provides everthing the people needs has made Slaves of the people"
-David Ey |
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08/15/2008 01:42:04 PM · #317 |
Originally posted by egamble:
They might be sick...but if their 'disease' causes them to harm other people, to takes lives or to inflict upon the 'rights' of another person..they forfeit their right to live in society. Their fault or no...it doesn't matter. They do not have the right to inflict havoc and damage upon the rest of the populace...just because it hurts YOUR feelings. |
and most likely a very long stay in a mental hospital
I'm sorry you think that murder is the only solution to the problem, and that anyone not rejoicing it wants dangerous people on the streets. |
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08/15/2008 02:00:51 PM · #318 |
Originally posted by Incarcerated forever:
I have been beat beyond recognition, raped, and placed in a cell so small I canât even turn around if I could. I canât even catch my breath, they donât let me visit my family, and I donât get the chance to go out in the yard for one-hour of exercise during the day. My cell has no light so I just lay in the dark; at least I have a soft bed. I wish I could be back in society once again. Iâm to young to be in this prison, but Iâm here forever; why canât I get a second chance? |
Now that a bad prison to be in, wouldn't you agree?
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08/15/2008 02:06:04 PM · #319 |
| Nothing but an appeal to pity having little substantive to do with the discussion at hand. |
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08/15/2008 02:06:50 PM · #320 |
who is this "incarcerated forever" person? I can't find the quote in the thread or the name in the DPC system. Do you know this person?
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Incarcerated forever:
I have been beat beyond recognition, raped, and placed in a cell so small I canât even turn around if I could. I canât even catch my breath, they donât let me visit my family, and I donât get the chance to go out in the yard for one-hour of exercise during the day. My cell has no light so I just lay in the dark; at least I have a soft bed. I wish I could be back in society once again. Iâm to young to be in this prison, but Iâm here forever; why canât I get a second chance? |
Now that a bad prison to be in, wouldn't you agree? |
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08/15/2008 02:11:33 PM · #321 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
who is this "incarcerated forever" person? I can't find the quote in the thread or the name in the DPC system. Do you know this person?
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Incarcerated forever:
I have been beat beyond recognition, raped, and placed in a cell so small I canât even turn around if I could. I canât even catch my breath, they donât let me visit my family, and I donât get the chance to go out in the yard for one-hour of exercise during the day. My cell has no light so I just lay in the dark; at least I have a soft bed. I wish I could be back in society once again. Iâm to young to be in this prison, but Iâm here forever; why canât I get a second chance? |
Now that a bad prison to be in, wouldn't you agree? |
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No I don't know the person personally but wanted to share. And yes I agree that a bad prison to be in.
ETA: But I do know the person family.
Message edited by author 2008-08-15 14:14:48. |
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08/15/2008 02:25:35 PM · #322 |
Originally posted by togtog:
and most likely a very long stay in a mental hospital
I'm sorry you think that murder is the only solution to the problem, and that anyone not rejoicing it wants dangerous people on the streets. |
Change your quote to a ...PERMANENT STAY...and we might have a compromise. |
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08/15/2008 02:27:48 PM · #323 |
 egamble, you don't seem to be interested in answering my question.
Let me ask you another one, which will hopefully also provide you with some input to consider should you choose to answer the original question:
Let's say someone gives you drugs without you realizing it (something like LSD in your food or drink, for example). These drugs can make you hear voices or see monsters. Let's further say that under the influence of the drug you push someone you believe to be a monster attacking you off a balcony thereby killing them.
What should your punishment be? Would you "forfeit your right to live in society"?
I would argue that your degree of responsibility for your drug induced craziness is about the same as that of the German woman for her craziness caused by schizophrenia: very close to zero. |
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08/15/2008 02:30:43 PM · #324 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
So what do you suggest we do with her? |
We can split the burden of this woman. I will take her out for a nice dinner, tell her she looks pretty, pat her on the head and show her that she is a special human being DEEP DOWN INSIDE.
Then she can babysit YOUR kids, nephews/neices, grandchildren...etc.
Deal? |
I asked you a serious question. Would you please be so kind and provide a serious answer? If you don't agree with policies other people suggest you should provide a better alternative. |
I have. You never answered. The answer for one situation, across the globe, isn't necesarily the answer for out situation.
You have a whole lot of different factors to include.
How long were these prisoners, in your video, in prison before they went to this camp?
What were they incarcerated for?
Why did the committ the original crime in the first place? etc...etc...etc..
You can't seriously ask us for an informed opinion..on ONE three minute clip. If anyone is being silly here...it is you. |
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08/15/2008 02:35:11 PM · #325 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
egamble, you don't seem to be interested in answering my question.
Let me ask you another one, which will hopefully also provide you with some input to consider should you choose to answer the original question:
Let's say someone gives you drugs without you realizing it (something like LSD in your food or drink, for example). These drugs can make you hear voices or see monsters. Let's further say that under the influence of the drug you push someone you believe to be a monster attacking you off a balcony thereby killing them.
What should your punishment be? Would you "forfeit your right to live in society"?
I would argue that your degree of responsibility for your drug induced craziness is about the same as that of the German woman for her craziness caused by schizophrenia: very close to zero. |
Again. Apples and Oranges.
If I was FORCED to take a drug..against my will...or without my knowledge. I would not be responsible for my actions.
The key difference? The effects would be temporary. If I was permanently bent out of reality..I would prefer to be put out of my misery.
These insane people...can have medication..yes...but we see story after story after story of these people stopping their meds and murdering the next door neighbor. |
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