The Importance of Punishment - DPChallenge Forums

08/14/2008 04:32:11 PM · #276

Sorry...didn't mean to post here.
,--'/` '

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 16:32:31.

08/14/2008 04:32:15 PM · #277

Originally posted by rugman1969:

The chicken doesn't know anything because it is a dumb animal! That's the difference between humans and animals. That's why chickens don't have an economy and restaurants name 'Popeyes' people and biscuits!!!!!

Intelligence between animals shows a gradual degree. Are there any fundamental differences between the brain of chimp and that of man? Or is it just a question of degree?

Someone once told me something along the lines of "Animals are stupid! Do they fly to the moon? Do they write symphonies? Do they build skyscrapers?"

I answered: "Do you fly to the moon? Do you write symphonies? Do you build skyscrapers?" ;-)

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

08/14/2008 04:34:06 PM · #278

Originally posted by kenskid:

,~.
,-'__ `-,
{,-' `. } ,') I know nothing of my fate...so don't argue with me!
,( a ) `-.__ ,',')~,
<=.) ( `-.__,==' ' ' '}
( ) /)
`-'\ , )
| \ `~. /
\ `._ \ /
\ `._____,' ,'
`-. ,'
`-._ _,-'
77jj'
//_||
__//--'/` hjw
,--'/` '

Now that was very convincing.

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 16:35:07.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

08/14/2008 04:35:27 PM · #279

Originally posted by Sam94720:

How do you know what the cock is thinking?

It's not hard

08/14/2008 04:35:49 PM · #280

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by Sam94720:
How do you know what the cock is thinking?

It's not hard

I was waiting for something like that...

08/14/2008 04:37:46 PM · #281

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by rugman1969:
The chicken doesn't know anything because it is a dumb animal! That's the difference between humans and animals. That's why chickens don't have an economy and restaurants name 'Popeyes' people and biscuits!!!!!

Intelligence between animals shows a gradual degree. Are there any fundamental differences between the brain of chimp and that of man? Or is it just a question of degree?

Someone once told me something along the lines of "Animals are stupid! Do they fly to the moon? Do they write symphonies? Do they build skyscrapers?"

I answered: "Do you fly to the moon? Do you write symphonies? Do you build skyscrapers?" ;-)

Men and women do...chickens don't.

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 16:38:03.

08/14/2008 04:37:49 PM · #282

Can we go back to the original topic instead of arguing about the deep philosophical ponderings of chickens?

kenskid, what do you think of the Norwegian prison?

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 16:39:08.

08/14/2008 04:38:50 PM · #283

To tell you the truth I didn't look over it. I was busy with my chicken. I'll try to look at it tonight.

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Can we can back to the original topic instead of arguing about the deep philosophical ponderings of chickens?

kenskid, what do you think of the Norwegian prison?

08/14/2008 04:40:53 PM · #284

Originally posted by kenskid:

To tell you the truth I didn't look over it. I was busy with my chicken. I'll try to look at it tonight.

It's a three-minute video. Allow your chicken to rest for a few minutes. Maybe you'd also like to read the article.

EDIT: For your convenience:
//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5105207813905488668
//www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/jul/26/crime.penal

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 16:41:59.

08/14/2008 05:30:41 PM · #285

From OP: What this boils down to is: What is more important to you, a safe society or punishment of criminals?

I don't think the main topic is a Norwegian prison, as great as the place sounds...

I place a greater importance on the safety of society than on punishing the criminals. How is a safe society achieved? IMO, keeping criminals out of society is primary. You favor reform over confinment. That is fine, but I don't believe it is realistic in many cases. I realize you are taking the extreme edge of the issue for the sake of discussion. Is it reasonable to say that many criminals(referring specifically to serial offenders, including thieves) will not change their behavior, regardless of their prison situation, be it utopian or not? After all, they are going to get out eventually anyway, so why not make prison a more enjoyable place where they can learn the value of friendship, hard work, and honesty.

Where is the line between the desire to protect society versus the reformation of the criminal? I'm very comfortable erring to the side of protecting society.

edit for silly spelling of erroring.

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 18:21:27.

08/14/2008 05:47:35 PM · #286

Originally posted by mpeters:

Where is the line between the desire to protect society versus the reformation of the criminal? I'm very comfortable erroring to the side of protecting society.

I do not quite understand your point. Don't you think reforming criminals would contribute to the protection of society?

We all know we can't lock up all criminals forever. So one day they will become our neighbors again. How can we make sure they are neighbors we can live with?

08/14/2008 06:20:55 PM · #287

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by mpeters:
Where is the line between the desire to protect society versus the reformation of the criminal? I'm very comfortable erring to the side of protecting society.

I do not quite understand your point. Don't you think reforming criminals would contribute to the protection of society?

We all know we can't lock up all criminals forever. So one day they will become our neighbors again. How can we make sure they are neighbors we can live with?

Sure, if we knew that we could reform them, it would make society safer. Do we know this to be true?

I'm totally OK knowing that a man like John Wayne Gacy never has a chance to become a "neighbor". Extreme example? Yep. So how far back down the ladder of criminal behavior do we need to go before we say, "That guy would be a great neighbor, and I'd like to help him move his sofa."

08/14/2008 06:26:59 PM · #288

Originally posted by mpeters:

A first question is "Which ones do we let out one day and which ones would we rather keep locked up for good?". You seem to be addressing this question.

A second question is "What do we do with those who will eventually be released to make sure that they become good neighbors once outside?". That's the question I'm interested in.

The crazies who go around killing and raping people by the dozen make the news, but they are extremely rare. I think we all agree that we should think twice (or thrice) before letting them out.

08/14/2008 06:47:44 PM · #289

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by mpeters:
Sure, if we knew that we could reform them, it would make society safer. Do we know this to be true?

I'm totally OK knowing that a man like John Wayne Gacy never has a chance to become a "neighbor". Extreme example? Yep. So how far back down the ladder of criminal behavior do we need to go before we say, "That guy would be a great neighbor, and I'd like to help him move his sofa."

A first question is "Which ones do we let out one day and which ones would we rather keep locked up for good?". You seem to be addressing this question.

A second question is "What do we do with those who will eventually be released to make sure that they become good neighbors once outside?". That's the question I'm interested in.

The crazies who go around killing and raping people by the dozen make the news, but they are extremely rare. I think we all agree that we should think twice (or thrice) before letting them out.

First question: I don't know the answer but the type of crime and their likelihood to repeat this behavior are the main factors. Again, it's ok with me to err on the side of safety for my law abiding neighbors.

Second question: I don't believe anyone is beyond help, even a murderer. That doesn't mean I think he should be allowed to re-enter society. For the ones who 'do their time' as sentenced and are released, maybe a horrible prison experience would convince them that it is a place to avoid.
Better of course if they recieve training and experience in real world skills to avoid recidivism and become a functioning member of society.

08/14/2008 06:57:41 PM · #290

Originally posted by mpeters:

I fully agree.

Originally posted by mpeters:

Second question: I don't believe anyone is beyond help, even a murderer. That doesn't mean I think he should be allowed to re-enter society. For the ones who 'do their time' as sentenced and are released, maybe a horrible prison experience would convince them that it is a place to avoid.
Better of course if they recieve training and experience in real world skills to avoid recidivism and become a functioning member of society.

I think here our opinions are also similar. I'd just like to repeat what I've written before:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

I hope you see that there is a trade-off. We can make prisons more unpleasant thereby increasing the deterring effect, but also reducing the probability that prisoners become laudable members of society after being released. Or we can make them more pleasant, thereby decreasing the deterring effect, but increasing the probability that former prisoners will not turn to crime again. It is clear that both extremes (making criminals suffer as much as possible or pampering them) are not good ideas. So we should find a good compromise somewhere in between. The Norwegian camp is such a compromise. Prisoners spend most of their sentence in an ordinary prison (which should work as a deterrent), but for the last months they are transferred to a camp where they learn values like friendship, compassion, hard work, etc. and are prepared for their life afterwards.

08/14/2008 07:20:18 PM · #291

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by mpeters:
First question: I don't know the answer but the type of crime and their likelihood to repeat this behavior are the main factors. Again, it's ok with me to err on the side of safety for my law abiding neighbors.

I fully agree.

Originally posted by mpeters:
Second question: I don't believe anyone is beyond help, even a murderer. That doesn't mean I think he should be allowed to re-enter society. For the ones who 'do their time' as sentenced and are released, maybe a horrible prison experience would convince them that it is a place to avoid.
Better of course if they recieve training and experience in real world skills to avoid recidivism and become a functioning member of society.

I think here our opinions are also similar. I'd just like to repeat what I've written before:

Originally posted by Sam94720:
I hope you see that there is a trade-off. We can make prisons more unpleasant thereby increasing the deterring effect, but also reducing the probability that prisoners become laudable members of society after being released. Or we can make them more pleasant, thereby decreasing the deterring effect, but increasing the probability that former prisoners will not turn to crime again. It is clear that both extremes (making criminals suffer as much as possible or pampering them) are not good ideas. So we should find a good compromise somewhere in between. The Norwegian camp is such a compromise. Prisoners spend most of their sentence in an ordinary prison (which should work as a deterrent), but for the last months they are transferred to a camp where they learn values like friendship, compassion, hard work, etc. and are prepared for their life afterwards.

I think we agree in part--but I see no reason to send prisoners to a camp where they can paint houses, water ski, etc. I'd rather have them(the ones most likely to reform) make license plates or help beautify the community(pick up trash, paint over graffiti, etc.). The other guys, provide food, water, and shelter; that's enough for me. I guess this means that I think prison is about paying for the crime (not that any measure of payment can make an abused child well again). :{ It isn't about revenge for the victim but it is about justice.

Time will tell on the Norwegian experiment--I didn't see any data about prisoner regression. I'm eternally skeptical.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/14/2008 07:32:36 PM · #292

Ok I watched the video. I got to say that I'm all for it BUT...

In the first sentence of the narration it says that this is to "ease prisoners at the end of their sentence back into society".

So I think we're missing something here. This prison (at least from the vid) is not for the long term. It is for prisoners who served almost all of their sentence to now be moved to this new place to get them skills to move back into soceity.

This if fine with me. But it was presented throughout this thread as "the" prison that Norway uses for its convicted. But unless I misunderstood, it is just for the ones who are nearly done with their sentence.

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by kenskid:
To tell you the truth I didn't look over it. I was busy with my chicken. I'll try to look at it tonight.

It's a three-minute video. Allow your chicken to rest for a few minutes. Maybe you'd also like to read the article.

EDIT: For your convenience:
//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5105207813905488668
//www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/jul/26/crime.penal

robs

Canon EOS R6 Mk II

08/14/2008 07:36:27 PM · #293

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by robs:
I believe dolphins are the only other animals to have sex for fun

I believe chimps and other primates exhibit behaviour that could be characterized as the pursuit of sexual pleasure.

I guess so, yes: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwegzhXAqaQ (not meant for the kids. And please consider this warning:

(and these, too, just in general)

Okay.... I stand corrected... Now to find some bleach to clean my eye balls :-)

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

08/14/2008 07:39:48 PM · #294

All animals have sex for fun or because if feels good. They know nothing of what the final outcome will be...a baby creature.

Originally posted by robs:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by robs:
I believe dolphins are the only other animals to have sex for fun

I believe chimps and other primates exhibit behaviour that could be characterized as the pursuit of sexual pleasure.

I guess so, yes: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwegzhXAqaQ (not meant for the kids. And please consider this warning:

(and these, too, just in general)

Okay.... I stand corrected... Now to find some bleach to clean my eye balls :-)

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/14/2008 09:54:48 PM · #295

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by kenskid:
Seems Louis started the attack by calling Rugman's response a "Strawman Response" instead of just rebutting what Strawma...oh...Rugman posted.

Rugman attributed statements to me I had never made and then argued against them. How should Louis have reacted? By attributing some made-up arguments of his own to Rugman and then responding to them? ;-) I don't think this is the kind of discussion we'd like to have...

i think you should stop saying "i'm interested in hearing your thoughts" if you are interested to listen only to what you are prepared to listen ;) this is looking very much like a controlled discussion with a hidden aim to gather support instead of real opinions, on an issue with a pre-fixed conclusion ;)

if we cant even convince nor change Sam's opinion on just a simple topic, i doubt we could really change much (if at all) criminals minds on never to commit crime again after their release. Sam's mind appeared to be completely closed from opinions - output of his own belief but not accepting input?

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 21:55:23.

Louis

Nikon D800

08/14/2008 10:25:21 PM · #296

Originally posted by crayon:

if we cant even convince nor change Sam's opinion on just a simple topic...

What would you have his opinion be?

egamble

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 IS USM

08/15/2008 01:33:01 AM · #297

Check it out

I really hope they let this woman out...and work in a daycare somewhere. I bet she just needs a hug.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/15/2008 01:48:34 AM · #298

Originally posted by egamble:

Check it out

I really hope they let this woman out...and work in a daycare somewhere. I bet she just needs a hug.

i bet you one roll of film that someone's gonna say "but that's an isolated case!" :p