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08/11/2008 08:59:23 PM · #26 |
That happens NOW...and not only in the good ole USA. So basically if someone couldn't do 3 months in prison they may have to kill the clerk.
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by kenskid:
I know I wouldn't shoplift if the first offence was to get my hands cut off! |
Yes, so you might abstain from shoplifting. Somebody else who is in a more dire situation than you are might reach a different conclusion: He needs to make sure not to get caught, so he'll bring a gun and kill the shop owner so that he can never identify the thief. |
Message edited by author 2008-08-11 20:59:51.
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08/11/2008 09:00:01 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
I know I wouldn't shoplift if the first offence was to get my hands cut off!
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Like what? Cutting the hands of thiefs off, for example? Do you think that would lower crime rates? |
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Exactly.
No I dont agree with cutting our hands off. Many countries still do. I think as Americans we have it "made" as far as punishment for crimes.
But I believe that punishment begins at home, with our children. I think that in general the values and morales of this country are plummeting so our children dont always learn the appropriate lessons growing up. I think sometimes we as parents are 'afraid' to punish our children for fear of ...... fill in the blank..... So we let small little incidence slide, then they get bigger and bigger and bigger. Obviously not ALL children grow up to be criminals.
Let me give an example. When I was 7, I stole some shoe laces from K-Mart. I Had gotten a pair of skates for Christmas and they didnt have laces, so instead of waiting for my parents to buy them, I stuck some in my pocket at K-Mart one day. When we got home my mom wanted to know where I got the laces. I tried to lie, but they got the truth out of me. Not only did they spank me, but they took me back to the store where I had to tell the manager what I did and let the manager decide what action to take. Lucky me, I learned a hard lesson. I was embarrassed because I stole, I was humiliated that I had to bring the laces back and admit what I did. And the spanking didnt feel too good either. Guess what??? I have never stolen another thing in my life. Becuase I learned EARLY that there would be consequences to what I did.
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08/11/2008 09:00:21 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
What would Yanko's criminal justice involve....surely not letting criminals go "the first time" with the promise of "never doing it again"... |
Well for starters I'd let free those guilty of drug use/sales and like crimes. Now that I cut the prison population in half I use the extra funds gained from that and pour it into rehabilitation. Basically, I'd make rehabilitation more of the focus and just like we do in the medical industry if there isn't a cure we spend money in research.
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08/11/2008 09:00:52 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by kenskid:
I know I wouldn't shoplift if the first offence was to get my hands cut off! |
Yes, so you might abstain from shoplifting. Somebody else who is in a more dire situation than you are might reach a different conclusion: He needs to make sure not to get caught, so he'll bring a gun and kill the shop owner so that he can never identify the thief. |
But Sam, if he had his hand cut off for shoplifting, he may have more problems firing a gun. :)
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08/11/2008 09:02:02 PM · #30 |
Well according to a previous post...you may have needed to kill your parents as to not be spanked and taken back to the manager.
Originally posted by gwe21:
Originally posted by kenskid:
I know I wouldn't shoplift if the first offence was to get my hands cut off!
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Like what? Cutting the hands of thiefs off, for example? Do you think that would lower crime rates? |
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Exactly.
No I dont agree with cutting our hands off. Many countries still do. I think as Americans we have it "made" as far as punishment for crimes.
But I believe that punishment begins at home, with our children. I think that in general the values and morales of this country are plummeting so our children dont always learn the appropriate lessons growing up. I think sometimes we as parents are 'afraid' to punish our children for fear of ...... fill in the blank..... So we let small little incidence slide, then they get bigger and bigger and bigger. Obviously not ALL children grow up to be criminals.
Let me give an example. When I was 7, I stole some shoe laces from K-Mart. I Had gotten a pair of skates for Christmas and they didnt have laces, so instead of waiting for my parents to buy them, I stuck some in my pocket at K-Mart one day. When we got home my mom wanted to know where I got the laces. I tried to lie, but they got the truth out of me. Not only did they spank me, but they took me back to the store where I had to tell the manager what I did and let the manager decide what action to take. Lucky me, I learned a hard lesson. I was embarrassed because I stole, I was humiliated that I had to bring the laces back and admit what I did. And the spanking didnt feel too good either. Guess what??? I have never stolen another thing in my life. Becuase I learned EARLY that there would be consequences to what I did. |
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08/11/2008 09:02:10 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by kenskid:
What would Yanko's criminal justice involve....surely not letting criminals go "the first time" with the promise of "never doing it again"... |
Well for starters I'd let free those guilty of drug use/sales and like crimes. |
WEll when we let them free, I hope we send them all to Texas. :)
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08/11/2008 09:04:03 PM · #32 |
Ok..lets do that but would the "would be criminal pusher" be sentenced to "rehab"? What if he didn't want to go to rehab..or what if none of his customer wanted Rehab...would we then put them back in the half empty prison?
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by kenskid:
What would Yanko's criminal justice involve....surely not letting criminals go "the first time" with the promise of "never doing it again"... |
Well for starters I'd let free those guilty of drug use/sales and like crimes. Now that I cut the prison population in half I use the extra funds gained from that and pour it into rehabilitation. Basically, I'd make rehabilitation more of the focus and just like we do in the medical industry if there isn't a cure we spend money in research. |
Message edited by author 2008-08-11 21:04:22.
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08/11/2008 09:06:13 PM · #33 |
I live by a rule to never hold grudges. I will give forgive a person if I know he/she has changed their ways.
That said.. I think my choices are clear.. A, A, C.
Message edited by author 2008-08-11 21:07:32. |
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08/11/2008 09:07:14 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Ok..lets do that but would the "would be criminal pusher" be sentenced to "rehab"? What if he didn't want to go to rehab..or what if none of his customer wanted Rehab...would we then put them back in the half empty prison? |
It would be for the remaining prison population so you tell me if they have a choice? They wouldn't be leaving jail per se. Anyway, I said for starters that is the direction I would take it. Simply locking people up for x amount of years doesn't work, IMO. Removing the conditions (mental, environmental, whatever) in which they commited the crimes would.
Message edited by author 2008-08-11 21:10:54.
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08/11/2008 09:18:00 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by gwe21:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by kenskid:
What would Yanko's criminal justice involve....surely not letting criminals go "the first time" with the promise of "never doing it again"... |
Well for starters I'd let free those guilty of drug use/sales and like crimes. |
WEll when we let them free, I hope we send them all to Texas. :) |
Well it's big enough. :P Seriously though, you keep the ones your city, town, state produced and I'll keep mine. Hows that? :)
Message edited by author 2008-08-11 21:19:07.
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08/11/2008 09:21:31 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by gwe21:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by kenskid:
What would Yanko's criminal justice involve....surely not letting criminals go "the first time" with the promise of "never doing it again"... |
Well for starters I'd let free those guilty of drug use/sales and like crimes. |
WEll when we let them free, I hope we send them all to Texas. :) |
Well it's big enough. :P Seriously though, you keep the ones your city, town, state produced and I'll keep mine. Hows that? :) |
well thats not fair. We have a lot of drug related crimes here. Although its not as bad as big cities. |
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08/11/2008 09:21:43 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by gwe21:
Let me give an example. When I was 7, I stole some shoe laces from K-Mart. I Had gotten a pair of skates for Christmas and they didnt have laces, so instead of waiting for my parents to buy them, I stuck some in my pocket at K-Mart one day. When we got home my mom wanted to know where I got the laces. I tried to lie, but they got the truth out of me. Not only did they spank me, but they took me back to the store where I had to tell the manager what I did and let the manager decide what action to take. Lucky me, I learned a hard lesson. I was embarrassed because I stole, I was humiliated that I had to bring the laces back and admit what I did. And the spanking didnt feel too good either. Guess what??? I have never stolen another thing in my life. Becuase I learned EARLY that there would be consequences to what I did. |
Interesting.
Did you learn why stealing is a problem? Did you learn how it affects other people? Did you learn why, as a society, we decided to outlaw it? I don't see any of that in your story.
It sounds to me that you learned that you should not steal because you will be punished for it. It will result in shame, humiliation, pain. If these consequences did not exist, would you steal? According to your story you should. However, I think you wouldn't steal. So there is something else that keeps you from stealing. What is it?
Let me tell you a personal story of mine: I saw some kids remove signs and barriers that had been put up by construction workers around a hole dug in the middle of the street (probably to reach pipes or something). The kids just wanted to play with them. I went up to them and asked them what they thought the signs and barriers were good for. They hesitated. So I asked them what would happen if someone on a bike arrived now and didn't see the hole. They figured out that person would badly hurt themselves. I said something like "Then we should better make sure we put the signs back so nobody gets hurt, right?" They agreed and we put the signs back together. I think they learned something. I think they won't try and play with the signs again. They might even tell their friends not to do it if they see them doing it.
Now imagine what would have happened if I had spanked the kids, went to their parents and made them feel really ashamed. They wouldn't have learned anything. And removing the signs might even have become more attractive because kids like to test limits. They might even have used it as a test of courage ("I bet you won't dare to remove the sign! Coward!").
Message edited by author 2008-08-11 21:26:17. |
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08/11/2008 09:26:10 PM · #38 |
Good story but not realistic in the big criminal world.
Let's say you see a bank robbery...suspects run out of bank holding guns and cash. You stop them and ask them if they've considered how their crime will affect other people...
...I wonder if they would go back in a give the money back?
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by gwe21:
Let me give an example. When I was 7, I stole some shoe laces from K-Mart. I Had gotten a pair of skates for Christmas and they didnt have laces, so instead of waiting for my parents to buy them, I stuck some in my pocket at K-Mart one day. When we got home my mom wanted to know where I got the laces. I tried to lie, but they got the truth out of me. Not only did they spank me, but they took me back to the store where I had to tell the manager what I did and let the manager decide what action to take. Lucky me, I learned a hard lesson. I was embarrassed because I stole, I was humiliated that I had to bring the laces back and admit what I did. And the spanking didnt feel too good either. Guess what??? I have never stolen another thing in my life. Becuase I learned EARLY that there would be consequences to what I did. |
Interesting.
Did you learn why stealing is a problem? Did you learn how it affects other people? Did you learn why, as a society, we decided to outlaw it? I don't see any of that in your story.
It sounds to me that you learned that you should not steal because you will be punished for it. It will result in shame, humiliation, pain. If these consequences did not exist, would you steal? According to your story you should. However, I think you wouldn't steal. So there is something else that keeps you from stealing. What is it?
Let me tell you a personal story of mine: I saw some kids remove signs and barriers that had been put up by construction workers around a hole dug in the middle of the street (probably to reach pipes or something). The kids just wanted to play with them. I went up to them and asked them what they thought they were good for. They hesitated. So I asked them what would happen if someone on a bike arrived now and didn't see the hole. The figured out that person would badly hurt themselves. I said something like "Then we should better make sure we put the signs back so nobody gets hurt, right?" They agreed and we put the signs back together. I think they learned something. I think they won't try and play with the signs again. They might even tell their friends not to do it if they see them doing it.
No imagine what would have happened if I had spanked the kids, went to their parents and made them feel really ashamed. They wouldn't have learned anything. And removing the signs might even have become more attractive because kids like to test limits. They might even have used it as a test of courage ("I bet you won't dare to remove the sign! Coward!"). |
Message edited by author 2008-08-11 21:26:35.
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08/11/2008 09:29:12 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by gwe21:
Let me give an example. When I was 7, I stole some shoe laces from K-Mart. I Had gotten a pair of skates for Christmas and they didnt have laces, so instead of waiting for my parents to buy them, I stuck some in my pocket at K-Mart one day. When we got home my mom wanted to know where I got the laces. I tried to lie, but they got the truth out of me. Not only did they spank me, but they took me back to the store where I had to tell the manager what I did and let the manager decide what action to take. Lucky me, I learned a hard lesson. I was embarrassed because I stole, I was humiliated that I had to bring the laces back and admit what I did. And the spanking didnt feel too good either. Guess what??? I have never stolen another thing in my life. Becuase I learned EARLY that there would be consequences to what I did. |
Interesting.
Did you learn why stealing is a problem? Did you learn how it affects other people? Did you learn why, as a society, we decided to outlaw it? I don't see any of that in your story.
It sounds to me that you learned that you should not steal because you will be punished for it. It will result in shame, humiliation, pain. If these consequences did not exist, would you steal? According to your story you should. However, I think you wouldn't steal. So there is something else that keeps you from stealing. What is it?
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I am just a lazy typer. Sorry. I did learn WHY I shouldnt steal. I learned that in addition to the consequences that what I did was wrong on a moral level, and how it cost the store money...and so on and so on...
I would not steal if shame, humiliation, pain didnt exist. Because I was taught right from wrong (and I know this is different to everyone) but I grew up with a set of values that dictate behavior. Thou shalt not steal...etc... My family was very religious, my parents did try to instill in me right from wrong.
I think that alot of people think there is such things as "victimless" crimes out there. Like stealing..etc.. But in reality all crimes have a victim do they not? |
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08/11/2008 09:32:05 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
No imagine what would have happened if I had spanked the kids, went to their parents and made them feel really ashamed. They wouldn't have learned anything. And removing the signs might even have become more attractive because kids like to test limits. They might even have used it as a test of courage ("I bet you won't dare to remove the sign! Coward!"). |
One, you did humiliate them...you just don't know it.
Who says they wouldn't have learned anything if you went to their parents and they got spanked.? They may have learned more...?
I have a friend who gets told all the time he has ADD (he's 41). Many of the "psych people" he works with ask "how did you ever get through school and become a Physicians Assistant." He told them if he acted up in school, he went to the principals office and if serious enough, got the board. Then, when he got home, he got it from his Dad. "I learned not to act up in school and learned to apply myself, because I didn't want those consequences."
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08/11/2008 09:33:43 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Good story but not realistic in the big criminal world.
Let's say you see a bank robbery...suspects run out of bank holding guns and cash. You stop them and ask them if they've considered how their crime will affect other people...
...I wonder if they would go back in a give the money back? |
We were talking about raising kids. And I guess you agree that it is better to explain to them why we don't like certain behaviors instead of simply making them fear punishment.
Talking to the bank robbers when they are running out of the bank might not be a good idea. However, we could change the way we treat them in prison. We could focus on learning and compassion instead of punishment, humiliation and shame. Instead of seeing them as evil people that will remain evil forever and need to be punished for it we could try and figure out why they became criminals and maybe figure out what we could do to make sure they won't feel the need to commit crimes again in the future. I guess this would work for many inmates, but not for everyone. There are people who are mentally ill beyond repair and we have to keep society safe from them. However, I think these cases are very rare. |
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08/11/2008 09:39:57 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Good story but not realistic in the big criminal world.
Let's say you see a bank robbery...suspects run out of bank holding guns and cash. You stop them and ask them if they've considered how their crime will affect other people...
...I wonder if they would go back in a give the money back?
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So how do you teach a bank robber the effects of robbing a bank?
You give him the means to legally create the life he wants, and then, all of the sudden, take it all away from him. ?
I believe most crimes come from people who are uneducated.
Message edited by author 2008-08-11 21:41:06. |
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08/11/2008 09:43:06 PM · #43 |
| The educated criminals are the ones you have to watch out for. |
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08/11/2008 09:45:03 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by gwe21:
I am just a lazy typer. Sorry. I did learn WHY I shouldnt steal. I learned that in addition to the consequences that what I did was wrong on a moral level, and how it cost the store money...and so on and so on...
I would not steal if shame, humiliation, pain didnt exist. Because I was taught right from wrong (and I know this is different to everyone) but I grew up with a set of values that dictate behavior. Thou shalt not steal...etc... My family was very religious, my parents did try to instill in me right from wrong. |
Thanks for the additional explanation. In my opinion, teaching a child something like "Stealing is wrong!" is (stand-alone) not as valuable as explaining to them why stealing is a behavior we consider undesirable. It's difficult for a child to make a distinction between "Stealing is wrong!", "Laughing about an accident is wrong!", "Wearing thongs in church is wrong!" and "Considering a dolphin a fish is wrong!". It's exactly the same sentence each time, but we have very different reasons why we don't like these behaviors.
Originally posted by gwe21:
I think that alot of people think there is such things as "victimless" crimes out there. Like stealing..etc.. But in reality all crimes have a victim do they not? |
Don't think so. One example is consensual sex between teenagers. I heard of a case of two teens who had consensual sex, were both happy about it, but later each of them was tried as both perpetrator and victim.
Drug consumption could also be considered a victimless crime. Think of the elderly woman relieving the side effects of her chemotherapy with marijuana who gets handcuffed and taken to jail. |
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08/11/2008 09:55:19 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Drug consumption could also be considered a victimless crime.... |
Consider the Emergency room nurse (ME), who gets punched in the face, kicked in the chest, cursed, and spat at, because someone high on drugs (and/or alcohol) is drug in by the PD to have them "cleared" for jail or for a psychiatric evaluation, and they don't want it or want to be there?
Not so victimless.
And yes, these things have happened to me MANY, MANY times. and don't say "you chose that line of work." Doesn't fly. Be the same as saying it would be ok to beat up prostitutes, cuz of their choice.
Message edited by author 2008-08-11 21:56:57.
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08/11/2008 10:00:32 PM · #46 |
I have read the complete OP and it's theories.
Want my thoughts?
America should stop spending more per year housing a criminal than educating a child. How can we do this? Stop giving them everything they want such as a gym, cable TV, conjugal visit, access to libraries that are more comprehensive than we have for our schools. Make them pay for the cost of their sentence per year by making them do manual labor outside of society that we are currently pay people to do. If they wish to become educated while in jail then they can work and pay for their education. Why should they get it free, when most college students are out working their finger to the bone to get a higher education. Crime is not a sickness it's a choice and they are not going to change their ways by sitting in front of a councilor. But if they want to be counciled; they can work to pay for that too. If they owe more than they paid while in prison they will have to pay their Convict Loan over years just like a student loan.
All the free money we have been giving them while in jail can now go toward education in hopes that we can fix the problem before it happens.
Then when their sentence is up they would not want to go back; EVER!
Message edited by author 2008-08-11 22:02:16. |
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08/11/2008 10:07:29 PM · #47 |
AHAHAHA...I love it! A Convict Loan. I'd vote for that.
I can see the commercials now...just like the GI Bill Loans. "I robbed a bank so that I could go to jail and get my education. WAIT!!! I gotta PAY that money back!! DAAAAMMMMNNNN! Was that in the small print?"
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08/11/2008 10:08:55 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
Consider the Emergency room nurse (ME), who gets punched in the face, kicked in the chest, cursed, and spat at, because someone high on drugs (and/or alcohol) is drug in by the PD to have them "cleared" for jail or for a psychiatric evaluation, and they don't want it or want to be there? |
In my example, I chose marijuana consumption which does not tend to make people aggressive, on the contrary.
However, you are right, there are many victims of the whole drug business. Our current approach is to outlaw drugs, to pursue drug users and dealers aggressively and to punish them. The result is that dealing drugs becomes financially attractive. However, due to police efforts you have to make sure to arm yourself as a drug dealer. And because you have to defend huge profits and don't want to go to jail you have to fight back aggressively. Drug users need to turn to crime to be able to finance their addiction. And many people not directly involved at all (like you) become victims.
An alternative approach would be to legalize drugs, thereby destroying the black market, dramatically reducing crime and saving a lot of money on law enforcement. Part of this money could be used for prevention, for the treatment of addicts, etc.
Yes, I agree that we want to keep the number of drug users as low as possible. The question is how we can best achieve that. And which side effects we create. |
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08/11/2008 10:17:49 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
An alternative approach would be to legalize drugs, thereby destroying the black market, dramatically reducing crime and saving a lot of money on law enforcement. Part of this money could be used for prevention, for the treatment of addicts, etc. |
But wait! not so simple. Now we are going to have to deal with triple the amount of DUI and possibly DUI related fatalities. I don't see much savings; money or lives. |
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08/11/2008 10:20:47 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by SDW:
I have read the complete OP and it's theories.
Want my thoughts?
America should stop spending more per year housing a criminal than educating a child. How can we do this? Stop giving them everything they want such as a gym, cable TV, conjugal visit, access to libraries that are more comprehensive than we have for our schools. Make them pay for the cost of their sentence per year by making them do manual labor outside of society that we are currently pay people to do. If they wish to become educated while in jail then they can work and pay for their education. Why should they get it free, when most college students are out working their finger to the bone to get a higher education. Crime is not a sickness it's a choice and they are not going to change their ways by sitting in front of a councilor. But if they want to be counciled; they can work to pay for that too. If they owe more than they paid while in prison they will have to pay their Convict Loan over years just like a student loan.
All the free money we have been giving them while in jail can now go toward education in hopes that we can fix the problem before it happens.
Then when their sentence is up they would not want to go back; EVER! |
I really like your creative approach.
I agree that it is difficult to understand that criminals are "rewarded" with things other people have to work hard for. However, I see two problems with your suggestion:
1) What would the guy say who lost his job because now we let a convict do it for free?
2) Our goal is not only to reduce the cost of prisons, we would also like to make sure that people leaving prison after serving their sentence become commendable members of society and refrain from committing any additional crimes. If a convict knows he'll have to pay back money for his education he might choose not to get one. And having to pay back a loan would put a strain on his financial situation. Both would make him more likely to turn to crime again.
I think your idea has potential. But we'd have to fix some details and fine-tune it. ;-) |
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