| Author | Thread |
|
|
07/24/2008 02:57:57 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
I'd wager that the average person, whether theist or non, finds joy in the stars at night, occasionally ponders their existence, then worries a bit more about who needs what to be ready for school/work in the morning. |
Sorry for the diversion, but this line so reminded me of what was at one time judged to be the world's "best" joke:
Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson go on a camping trip.
After a good dinner and a bottle of wine, they retire for the night, and go to sleep.
Some hours later, Holmes wakes up and nudges his faithful friend.
"Watson, look up at the sky and tell me what you see."
"I see millions and millions of stars, Holmes" replies Watson.
"And what do you deduce from that?"
Watson ponders for a minute. "Well,
ΓΆ€ΒΆ Astronomically, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ Horologically, I deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have a beautiful day tomorrow.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ Theologically, I can see that God is all powerful, and that we are a small and insignificant part of the universe.
But what does it tell you, Holmes?"
Holmes is silent for a moment.
"Watson, you idiot!" he says. "Someone has stolen our tent!" |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 03:15:18 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Even nontheists may at times simply enjoy the wonders and beauty of the world without having to ask "why is the sky blue?" |
- The non-theist (interesting term) looks at the sky and thinks "The sky is wonderful. The stars are beautiful. What might they be? Are they far away? What happens there? Maybe one day we'll know! Isn't this fascinating?" And then he finds out how fast light travels and realizes how far away they really are. The universe is bigger and more intriguing than he thought! Fascinating. Beautiful. And then we develop technology to take pictures of distant galaxies. Wow! The discoveries are breathtaking! They look beautiful. The universe is really stunning! etc.
- The theist looks at the sky and thinks "The sky is wonderful. The stars are beautiful. God put them there for our enjoyment. He put everything here. He explains everything.". No need for questions (he would probably even discourage them). No further discoveries. No further amazement. |
Assumption on your part: "non-theists" are interesting and questioning people, full of amazement and wonder. "Theists" accept everything as just plain ol' God at work again, no joy, no curiosity. Must be pretty dull to be a Christian. Nobody who questions "why" would ever remain a believer for long.
|
|
|
|
07/24/2008 03:22:03 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Assumption on your part: "non-theists" are interesting and questioning people, full of amazement and wonder. "Theists" accept everything as just plain ol' God at work again, no joy, no curiosity. Must be pretty dull to be a Christian. Nobody who questions "why" would ever remain a believer for long. |
Sure, I presented stereotypes of both, the curious scientist and the staunch believer. I don't understand why so many people claim that asking questions and being curious about the world are in opposition to wonder and amazement. On the contrary, they go hand in hand!
Religion (or rather the church) actively discourages curiosity and inquiry. You all know Galileo and the other examples. And even today Christians oppose science and the teaching of science (some of them - how ironic - using computers and the Internet, which would never have been possible without a myriad of scientific discoveries).
Still trying to come back to the original topic. Did you watch the video? ;)
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 15:22:54. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 03:25:18 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You have many assumptions which may fall one or more of these categories:... |
D: Your world view accepts that some things are unknown. The remainder has some testable foundation that lends some credibility to its status as known.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The theist has the advantage simply because he or she is more comfortable with the idea of "unknowability." |
Seems like the opposite is true. Anyone looking for answers through scientific process will readily acknowledge that we don't or can't know all the answers (Heisenberg for one) vs. someone who assumes we already have the answers and merely tries to reconcile observations to what he "knows" to be fact. Most people do not believe in Odin, Zeus or fairies, and an atheist's disbelief only diverges from your own where you abandon the same logical reasoning for dismissing the others. A devout believer of Zeus could make identical claims of faith and point to his obvious works and personal accounts of having felt his presence. You would either wave it off as a myth or rationalize that person is "really" thinking of your own belief and just doesn't know it.
None of this has anything to do with the OP, though. Have you watched the video? He makes no argument against the original accounts... only that we don't really know what they were. Oh, and claiming that texts are 2/3 identical is kinda silly given the importance of this particular text. "In the beginning an armadillo created the heaven and the earth," is 90% in agreement with the original. More to the point, you might be able to reconcile modern texts as mostly in agreement with the original story, but we have no way of knowing if the agreed-upon story was based on Herman's copy of Bob's copy of Mark and Frank's copy of George's copy of Matthew, which were in turn based on Warren's dramatized version of Bill's copy of Paul's claims. See? |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 03:47:00 PM · #55 |
Sam, why do you paint all religious people as not being inquisitive? I think it's unfair and simply a stereotype. I inquire. I utilize science every day of my life. I ask questions about by faith. Hard questions. I search for answers. I do not think this is unusual. Heck your original post about the bible has caused me to add to my own database of knowledge.
My basic point is to simply rail again the arrogant idea that "to be a theist is simply to deny the obvious, to be an atheist is to be an enlightened individual." I categorically deny it and have seen such rhetoric posted perhaps three times by different authors in the last 10 posts. I would wager my own intelligence level and knowledge base about science and philosophy as being on par with anybody in this discussion. Yet I am a theist.
To address your asking for personal beliefs on the level of a "jewish zombie", if I can use such similar derogatory verbage I'd say you believe in the idea that matter can be created with a simple "poof" without cause. (And please don't simply point out that I believe the same thing, we're addressing your own belief.) You also likely believe that you have Free Will with no rational way to explain it in your own material worldview.
Melethia, good point. Materialist and atheist are likely synonymous for practical purposes. I could imagine an atheist that is not a materialist (there is a separate domain from our material universe, but it is uninhabited by any intelligent being or force), but I cannot imagine a meterialist that is not an atheist.
Should we get back to talking about the reliability of the New Testament?
|
|
|
|
07/24/2008 04:01:07 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Religion (or rather the church) actively discourages curiosity and inquiry. You all know Galileo and the other examples. And even today Christians oppose science and the teaching of science (some of them - how ironic - using computers and the Internet, which would never have been possible without a myriad of scientific discoveries).
|
Where do you get that Christians oppose science? There are parts of science that Christians appose like the fact that science tends to completely avoid teachings or conclusions that may bring up questions of God. I am a Christian and I thank God that we have hospitals and medicines and all the other modern day advances that we have. So please unless you have proof that Christians oppose science then I would not throw those blanket type comments out there. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 04:05:34 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Sam, why do you paint all religious people as not being inquisitive? I think it's unfair and simply a stereotype. I inquire. I utilize science every day of my life. I ask questions about by faith. Hard questions. I search for answers. |
I didn't paint anything. I just provided two prototype examples.
You said above that nothing would ever change your faith. I believe you that you are inquisitive and ask questions. But all of this only within the boundaries already set by your faith.
The short summary of the Christian faith I found is certainly unconventional, but I wouldn't consider it derogatory. It's actually surprisingly accurate.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'd say you believe in the idea that matter can be created with a simple "poof" without cause. |
No, I don't. I simply don't know how the matter we observe around us (and are made of) came into existence. Or whether it has always been around. This also touches the whole concept of time. I simply don't know. Maybe one day we'll find out. Until then, it doesn't have a huge impact on my life... (And by the way, the whole argument "Nothing can be created without a cause, therefore God exists and he doesn't want gay people to marry." is silly. You are still left without an explanation for the existence of God. In addition, this argument does certainly not provide any information about the characteristics of a god and about his desires. I used one such alleged desire as an example above because I heard the argument basically in this form.)
Free will is a very tricky issue and would take a few pages to explain. I also don't have a definite answer there and I don't think I need it. "God gave us free will and we screwed up, so he had to kill his son to fix the situation." doesn't help the philosophical discussion (and doesn't make any sense whatsoever - "Who was God trying to impress? Presumably himself - judge and jury as well as execution victim." as Dawkins writes. I also don't understand why some Christians accuse the Jews of killing Jesus. Wasn't this all part of the plan?).
Back to the main topic: Did you watch the video? |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 04:07:23 PM · #58 |
Sorry, no, have not watched the video. Have a job that demands most of my time. I only can pop in now and then to help stir the pot.
Most of us don't have any problem with science. Only with facts mis-interpreted and wrangled.
|
|
|
|
07/24/2008 04:10:48 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
Where do you get that Christians oppose science? [...] So please unless you have proof that Christians oppose science then I would not throw those blanket type comments out there. |
Many Christians do oppose science and its teaching. Did you miss the last few decades and all the quarrels about evolution? Or about the age of the earth? Many Christians oppose stem cell research. Many Christians oppose scientific views about climate change. Ben Stein is currently showing his film "Expelled" that directly attacks science. He says things like "Science leads to killing people." |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 04:14:24 PM · #60 |
If YOU were presented evidence contrary to your atheism, would YOU change YOUR faith? If you DID see evidence in the Bible, or in any realm of everyday life for that matter, that said "God Is", would you believe it?
|
|
|
|
07/24/2008 04:23:28 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
If YOU were presented evidence contrary to your atheism, would YOU change YOUR faith? If you DID see evidence in the Bible, or in any realm of everyday life for that matter, that said "God Is", would you believe it? |
He already answered that at 7:42 this morning, although I'm pretty sure "evidence in the Bible" wouldn't qualify as evidence any more than hearing about an invasion from Mars on the radio would qualify as evidence of life on other planets (no matter how convincing Orson Welles may be). Getting back to the OP (hopefully), what's written in the Bible isn't quite what was originally written anyway.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 16:32:56. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 04:23:59 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by PapaBob:
Where do you get that Christians oppose science? [...] So please unless you have proof that Christians oppose science then I would not throw those blanket type comments out there. |
Many Christians do oppose science and its teaching. Did you miss the last few decades and all the quarrels about evolution? Or about the age of the earth? Many Christians oppose stem cell research. Many Christians oppose scientific views about climate change. Ben Stein is currently showing his film "Expelled" that directly attacks science. He says things like "Science leads to killing people." |
Well you don't have to be a Christian or even a religious person to be against some of the things science led to (ex. guns, nukes, human cloning/eugenics, etc.)
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 16:24:54. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 04:26:32 PM · #63 |
Ok, I haven't finished reading DrAchoo's link, but I really want to point out something that you surprisingly did not notice. The link you provided is actually a critique of Professor Bart Ehrman, the exact man who gave the speech at Stanford in the link that this thread is supposedly about. Please watch it before continuing this conversation because it's beginning to dissolve into your usual "athiest v christian" argument and the dialog between these two links is seriously much more interesting.
I would like to note that the critique linked by DrAchoo is entirely respectful of Dr. Ehrman and treats him as the foremost leading scholar on the topic of New Testament textual variance, and only disagrees to a rather small degree with some of Dr. Ehrman's interpretations. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 04:49:33 PM · #64 |
We are getting further and further away from the original topic, but I feel I have to answer this one:
Originally posted by yanko:
Well you don't have to be a Christian or even a religious person to be against some of the things science led to (ex. guns, nukes, human cloning/eugenics, etc.) |
Science is a process that allows us to figure out how the world works. What we do with the knowledge is a different question. Almost any scientific discovery can be used for both good and bad.
If science lead mostly to cruelty and suffering, we could seriously think about abandoning it altogether - just to be on the safe side. However, the truth is that science provides us with knowledge that is enormously beneficial and improves our lives significantly.
 yanko, did you watch the video?
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 16:50:22. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 05:02:49 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
If YOU were presented evidence contrary to your atheism, would YOU change YOUR faith? If you DID see evidence in the Bible, or in any realm of everyday life for that matter, that said "God Is", would you believe it? |
As  scalvert already said, I answered this before.
By the way, I wouldn't call myself an atheist. It's a silly term. Nobody defines themselves by what they do not believe in. Are you a non-astrologer? A non-unicornist?
"If atheism is a faith, then not collecting stamps is a hobby." - Don't know the source, but it's a good one.
Atheism is simply the default position. We are all atheists in the beginning.
By the way, I like this one.
Can we get back to the video now? Could we make it a requirement that you have to watch the video before posting in this thread? ;-) |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 05:03:48 PM · #66 |
| I am a pastafarian and no I did not watch the video. :-P |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 05:38:45 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'd say you believe in the idea that matter can be created with a simple "poof" without cause. |
No, I don't. I simply don't know how the matter we observe around us (and are made of) came into existence. |
HAHAHA! OK, this sentence right here means I'm simply going to limit my future conversation on this thread to the original topic, the reliability of the New Testament.
Did you read the link? No, I have not watched the video because an hour and 39 minutes is a bit too long for a simple thread like this when I'm fairly sure I know what he's going to say anyway. Feel free to quote specific parts of the lecture if you wish and I'll be happy to respond to them.
BTW, you misinterpreted me. I didn't say, or mean to say, my faith would never change. I said, or meant to say, the fact I have faith will never change.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 17:41:31. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 06:07:32 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Sam, why do you paint all religious people as not being inquisitive? |
For the same reasons you paint all atheists as "uncomfortable with 'unknowability'" perhaps. It's an unfair characterization that you've converted to a stereotype. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 06:37:57 PM · #69 |
| Anyone here ever wonder why non believers spend so much time and energy trying to disprove what they do not believe. The time this guy spent trying to prove he is not a believer must have been unreal, if you do not believe why would it consume so much of your time? |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 06:56:12 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
Anyone here ever wonder why non believers spend so much time and energy trying to disprove what they do not believe. The time this guy spent trying to prove he is not a believer must have been unreal, if you do not believe why would it consume so much of your time? |
See my 07/22/2008 08:30:33 PM post.
And again, this thread is not about proving or disproving anything. Did you watch the video? |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 07:17:56 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by PapaBob:
Anyone here ever wonder why non believers spend so much time and energy trying to disprove what they do not believe. The time this guy spent trying to prove he is not a believer must have been unreal, if you do not believe why would it consume so much of your time? |
See my 07/22/2008 08:30:33 PM post.
And again, this thread is not about proving or disproving anything. Did you watch the video? |
I have not watched it and do not feel the need to watch it, my point is and was that he spent a lot of time working on something he feels is not accurate or the truth and wondered why he would dedicate so much time to something that has no value to a non believer.
Can I ask you what purpose you had in bringing this guys work to everyones attention?
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 19:20:49. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 07:32:39 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
Can I ask you what purpose you had in bringing this guys work to everyones attention? |
Discussions serve two purposes:
1) They allow me to be exposed to new information and ideas and thereby updated and revise my own views.
2) They allow me to expose other people to new information and ideas in the hope they might revise and update their views.
I especially like to study information that does not correspond to my current world view because this is the only way it can be refined. You seem to have a different approach, you have a quick glance at new information and if it threatens your current world view, you keep away from it.
People's beliefs (no matter of what nature they are) affect all our lives. I therefore think it's important that we discuss our beliefs.
The Bible is one of the most important books of Western civilization and I think it's important that you know about its history, especially if you are a Christian and like to quote from it. That's all. It always amazes me how little many people know about something they consider so extremely important in their lives. Have you read the whole Bible? |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 07:42:38 PM · #73 |
| Interesting this thread is still in General Discussion and not Rant. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 07:44:32 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Shadowfax23:
Interesting this thread is still in General Discussion and not Rant. |
Watch the video, it's by no means a rant. |
|
|
|
07/24/2008 07:50:20 PM · #75 |
Sam, I respect your comments on why you made the OP and yes I do read the Bible, in fact I am leaving to go to a study in a few minutes so I need to make this quick. My problem with this sort of video is it is made with the intention to cause disbelief and it always amazes me how much effort non beleivers will go through to try prove Christianity wrong. In your earlier post it said it was not about God but when it comes to the Bible it is about God.
If I am wrong and Christianity is a hoax then I have made the wrong choice and the best I could hope for is to still qualify to came back as a manly looking lady bug and get my picture on the front page of DPC, but if I am right then it does not fair well for people who make decisions based on what this guy is putting out.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 19:51:08. |
|
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 07/18/2025 02:10:54 AM EDT.
