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07/24/2008 07:51:03 PM · #76 |
| Not referring to the video ... have noticed how quickly some threads moved over to Rant especially with a topic such as this one ... just curious. |
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07/24/2008 07:55:10 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
My problem with this sort of video is it is made with the intention to cause disbelief [...] |
You seem to have a very detailed opinion about the video without having seen a single second of it. You even know what the speaker's intentions are without having heard a single sentence. The video is not about proving anything right or wrong. A professor simply tells the story of how the New Testament was spread and copied and what kind of changes it underwent in the process.
Watch it when you have time, it's very interesting.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 19:55:57. |
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07/24/2008 07:57:35 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
My problem with this sort of video is it is made with the intention to cause disbelief and it always amazes me how much effort non beleivers will go through to try prove Christianity wrong. |
It's amazing how you managed to reach that conclusion without actually watching the video.
"Bart D. Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar and textual critic of early Christianity. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He has researched the source materials for the Bible." It's not about proving Christianity wrong, it's about the history of an important document.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 19:59:04. |
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07/24/2008 08:00:38 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by PapaBob:
My problem with this sort of video is it is made with the intention to cause disbelief and it always amazes me how much effort non beleivers will go through to try prove Christianity wrong. |
It's amazing how you managed to reach that conclusion without actually watching the video. |
He was taking it on faith. |
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07/25/2008 03:43:01 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
My problem with this sort of video is it is made with the intention to cause disbelief and it always amazes me how much effort non beleivers will go through to try prove Christianity wrong. |
SNIP
PLEASE watch the video before making these kinds of assumptions! That is not AT ALL what the video is about! In fact, read DrAchoo's posted link and you'll realize even more so that it's NOT what he's arguing. He never reveals his own views in the speech, I'm not so sure about the book he wrote, but he is incredibly careful to make the point that his research has not been meant to disprove Christianity as a whole, nor can it even convincingly be used in such a way. DrAchoo's post from the Christian website said as much about him!
I am officially frustrated with everyone, don't take part in this conversation unless you've watched the video, or at least have a good joke to tell.
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07/25/2008 04:22:59 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by JessWest:
don't take part in this conversation unless you've watched the video, or at least have a good joke to tell. |
A nun walks into a bar and asks if she can use the restroom. The bartender says, "I don't think you want to do that. There's a statue of a totally naked man with a fig leaf over his privates."
She says, "I'll just turn my head the other way." When she returns, the whole place is laughing. She asked,"What happened?" The bartender says, "We wired up the fig leaf so all the lights dim whenever anyone lifts it."
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07/25/2008 04:36:16 AM · #82 |
| A man runs into a bar and is instantly knocked out. It was a metal bar... |
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07/25/2008 10:02:50 AM · #83 |
If you take a Baptist fishing with you, he'll drink all your beer. Better to take two, then they won't drink any.
So, O.K., I've listened to the video. Very scholarly, and some points hard to argue with. "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us." 2 Cor 4:7 No doubt there are discrepancies and changes, and some have even been intentional. The story has been comitted to men, fallable and sinful. The miracle is that even in spite of all of that, anybody who desires to know God and the person of Jesus Christ can find Him in the Bible.
So what's your take on this information? You ask for responses, now tell us what YOU think about all of that.
And here's an equivalent question to "have you watched the video?"
Have YOU read the Bible? Lots of people pick this verse and that, exactly as he says, to support this doctrine or that, this position or that, but few have read it all, looking for God. Most read parts to find anything BUT God.
Yes, I have read it. All. More than once. There is way more in it to understand and to live by than there is to question and dispute.
I'll repeat, just 'cuz I did like the analogy: (yes, doesn't everybody love an apt analogy?) if I tried to build a relationship with Mrs. by picking apart her personality and pointing out her every flaw, I doubt we'd have lasted 29 years.
Peace.
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07/25/2008 10:44:25 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
I'll repeat, just 'cuz I did like the analogy: (yes, doesn't everybody love an apt analogy?) if I tried to build a relationship with Mrs. by picking apart her personality and pointing out her every flaw, I doubt we'd have lasted 29 years. |
Oh, PLEASE!!!!
You could and did that......just not out loud....and you love her in spite of everything.
THAT'S why you last.
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07/25/2008 10:55:22 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by farfel53:
I'll repeat, just 'cuz I did like the analogy: (yes, doesn't everybody love an apt analogy?) if I tried to build a relationship with Mrs. by picking apart her personality and pointing out her every flaw, I doubt we'd have lasted 29 years. |
Oh, PLEASE!!!!
You could and did that......just not out loud....and you love her in spite of everything.
THAT'S why you last. |
"Maybe", (he says with a grin.) But the analogy still holds, doesn't it? Even IF I find faults and see the imperfections, I still see the underlying beauty and attraction. But if I (we) dwell on the blemishes, we're sunk.
Just trying to be illustrative...maybe that's the photographer in me...needs improvement, I know...
Message edited by author 2008-07-25 10:56:47.
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07/25/2008 12:47:01 PM · #86 |
OK, I have now watched the video, I did find it interesting and have to admit I was wrong on why he put the information out there. Although this is not something new I felt he did a good job descussing the issues and how descripancies have occured over time. Most believers I know have discussed how the gospels were written and transcribed and are aware it is not a perfect process, even today there are so many translations that use different words to try to help us understand the original intent that it can be looked at as changing the meaning. Comparing Bible translations is common and going back to the original greek wording is often necessary to help understand the best possible meaning intent of the wording.
A man has a pet duck he takes everywhere he goes
he decides to go to a movie but the theater has a sign no pets allowed
he decides he still wants to go so he puts the duck in his pants buys a ticket and goes in
the man sits down next to a couple of nuns
he decides he better give the duck some air so he unzips his pants
the first nun says to the second nun, "I have a pervent next to me he just unzipped his pants"
the second nun says, "ah don't worry once you have seen one you have seen them all"
the first nun says, "I know but this one is eating my pop corn..." |
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07/25/2008 01:58:45 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
I'll repeat, just 'cuz I did like the analogy: (yes, doesn't everybody love an apt analogy?) if I tried to build a relationship with Mrs. by picking apart her personality and pointing out her every flaw, I doubt we'd have lasted 29 years. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Oh, PLEASE!!!!
You could and did that......just not out loud....and you love her in spite of everything.
THAT'S why you last. |
Originally posted by farfel53:
"Maybe", (he says with a grin.) But the analogy still holds, doesn't it? Even IF I find faults and see the imperfections, I still see the underlying beauty and attraction. But if I (we) dwell on the blemishes, we're sunk.
Just trying to be illustrative...maybe that's the photographer in me...needs improvement, I know... |
I like that you said "We"......8>)
My wife has been pointing out my flaws for 30 years.....and I still love her! LOL!!!
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07/28/2008 10:45:01 AM · #88 |
Didn't get any response from my last two questions to the originator and his fellow unbelievers. You know what some Christians think about it. What do YOU think about it?
And...yes, now some of us have watched the video...now have some of YOU read the Bible?
I'll add a 3rd question, just for clarity, maybe for a little more fun: what was your motivation...honestly, now...for bringing this video to this forum? What did you want to happen, and did you get your wish?
Peace - |
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07/28/2008 11:08:45 AM · #89 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Didn't get any response from my last two questions to the originator and his fellow unbelievers. You know what some Christians think about it. What do YOU think about it?
And...yes, now some of us have watched the video...now have some of YOU read the Bible?
I'll add a 3rd question, just for clarity, maybe for a little more fun: what was your motivation...honestly, now...for bringing this video to this forum? What did you want to happen, and did you get your wish?
Peace - |
First off, I am really irritated by the use of the term 'unbeliever.' Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean I don't believe.
Second, I have read the bible. Repeatedly. And the gnostic bible and texts. And many other works from the same time period and from before that period. And studied Christian history throughout the middle ages.
Third, this video doesn't question the existence of God. This video doesn't question the existence of Jesus. It does not examine its literary value or its spiritual value. This video specifically looks at reliability of the Bible as historical text.
I find it humorous that people can insist on a literal interpretation of the bible as historical fact. Do those same people believe in a literal interpretation of the Koran as possible? I would think not... |
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07/28/2008 11:26:05 AM · #90 |
Dahkota -
First: how in the world can you be irritated or take offense when you haven't even been a part of this discussion up until now? I couldn't have called you an unbeliever, as you were not part of the group to which I referred. Save your indignation for when you've been slighted.
Second: good. You are educated in these matters, and don't just take these ideas at face value.
Third: didn't say it did. Only asked the motivation.
Some people who do insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible will feel slighted and indignant at your "humorous" take. But that's O.K. if you irritate them.
Still...peace.
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07/28/2008 11:58:57 AM · #91 |
| I suspect many of the "unbelievers" posting here are at least as well versed in the Bible as the most faithful, and the professor giving the presentation probably knows the text as well as the rest of us combined. Although he doesn't offer his position on faith in this video, he has given it elsewhere as "agnostic," which makes sense. His own research demonstrates that the known texts include errors, embellishment and/or outright fiction on the part of scribes and translators. We dwell on how close different copies are to each other, but we don't really know how much of the Bible, if any, remains true to the long lost first drafts, nor even if the original versions were unlike the Iliad or the Odyssey... fictional stories peppered with enough known history to sound like journalistic accounts of real events. A mountain of archeological evidence that verifies the historical existence of a Trojan War or its principle characters does not lend credibility to the supernatural aspects of the stories, no matter how closely the copies or different versions may agree. |
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07/28/2008 12:38:05 PM · #92 |
Your motivation, then, is to dissuade one from believing in a literal interpretation. Correct? Or just to stir discussion?
And I suspect you are correct: "many", or maybe "some", non-believers do have some first hand knowledge of scripture. However, I do also suspect that "most" that don't believe do not have any such knowledge, and are perfectly happy with that situation. AND...I don't suspect, but sadly KNOW, that far too many "believers" don't really know why they believe, or make much effort to find out.
The "unbeliever" label is only intended to differentiate a side of the aisle, if you will, and is not meant as a slight to anybody. Please don't take offense.
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07/28/2008 12:59:29 PM · #93 |
Hello there again. I was abroad for the weekend, which explains the silence.
 farfel53, I've already answered some of your questions. And yes, I have read the Bible, although only in parts. I was planning to read both the Bible and the Quran (well, an "English interpretation" of it) from cover to cover, just to expand my general education. Haven't found the time yet, though, but the books are ready on my pile.
Regarding the history of this thread: I came across this video, found it interesting, and posted it here because many people here in the forums had been quoting from the Bible (for example in the "Would it be a sin for a terminally ill person to commit suicide by skydiving and not opening the parachute?" thread). That's all. I was just sharing a video providing interesting information about the history of an important book. This was not supposed to be a discussion about faith, about the existence of God or a fight between believers and unbelievers.
It was all very friendly until less than ten minutes after my original post someone criticized the video as "an attack on Christianity" and after watching just a few minutes of the video already had a very clear idea of what its basic premise and intent were.
It is believers who immediately took a defensive position and made assumptions and accusations regarding the video without even watching a single second of it. What would Jesus say about such a rush to judgement?
Religion is a bit like a prison you grow up in. All the people in your prison tell you it's the best place to live and that the world outside is horrible and cruel. Some of the people (like DrAchoo and  karmat) will dare to look out a window from time to time and think about what they see outside. But nothing could ever convince them to step out the door because they know the prison is the best place to live. When others get a note through a window telling them to look outside for a moment, they yell back "Don't attack us! We know exactly what you want to show us! We know you want to convince us to leave! But we are staying!"
There are many such prisons and the people in them all behave similarly. They are all convinced that their prison is the best place to live and they would never leave it. They all believe certain (many of them mutually exclusive) things about the outside world and are absolutely sure that this information is correct. Most of them know that there are other people living in other prisons thinking that their prison is the best, but nobody ever much thinks about the fact that they simply chose their prison because they grew up there and that they do not know much about the other prisons or the outside world except for a few rumors.
Now I prefer to live outside the prisons. I visit some of them from time to time to discuss with the people there and to see their point of view. And sometimes I tell them about the outside world and encourage them to look out the window or maybe even go for a walk outside. They can always go back if they want to.
Some of them try to convince me to stay at their prison and never leave it. I don't find this proposition very appealing. I'm curious, I would like to continue to explore the world and be exposed to different ideas. And even if I considered living in a prison, how would I choose one? They are all similar, people in each of them are equally convinced that theirs is the best and their beliefs about the outside world are all different, but about equally weird and they do not correspond to what I've seen with my own eyes in the outside world. I ask some of the people in one prison why I shouldn't choose some other prison. Nobody was ever able to give me a convincing reason. They all say "You just have to try! Come and live with us forever and you'll feel it's the best place to be!" But again, this claim is the same everywhere and I can't try all of the prisons forever. So I'll keep visiting, but I'll spend most of my time in the outside world. And sometimes I throw a note inside one of the windows of a prison to encourage people in there to have a look outside. |
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07/28/2008 01:03:12 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
However, I do also suspect that "most" that don't believe do not have any such knowledge, and are perfectly happy with that situation. |
From this thread:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by farfel53:
saying it's so doesn't make it so.
That is like people who don't believe the Bible. They've never read it, so don't understand it... |
*Contradiction alert*
At least one of the professed atheists here was a former seminary student. Many are intimately familiar with the Bible and other texts. That you could make such a claim immediately after declaring, "saying it's so doesn't make it so" should raise an eyebrow. |
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07/28/2008 01:39:49 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Your motivation, then, is to dissuade one from believing in a literal interpretation. Correct? Or just to stir discussion? |
I'd be happy with informed discussion. Most of the regular "doubters" here have noted their own deeply religious backgrounds and/or Biblical studies in other threads. If you're going to base major life decisions on an old document, you should at least have a good understanding of the document itself (not just its assumed content). I know many people who have read the Bible, but know little or nothing of its origins or historical context. |
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07/28/2008 01:49:41 PM · #96 |
Sam - thank you for honest and reasoned response.
Louis...Shannon...
I'm sorry...maybe I'm just not very smart...I don't follow the contradiction you point out with an exclamation point. Does the exclamation point somehow make my point of view of less value to you? Does "contradiction alert!" equate to "AHA!", like Clouseau might shout at the moment of discovery???
How is saying that "most" who don't believe also don't know much about it, and saying people who don't read it don't understand it, a contradiction? How does one former seminarian who decided to walk away add anything to the contradiction you point to? How does a statement that "many" have knowledge disallow my statement that most don't?
Explain the contradiction and the excitement about it, if you would be so kind.
I'm confused.
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07/28/2008 01:56:27 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
saying it's so doesn't make it so.
That is like people who don't believe the Bible. They've never read it, so don't understand it... |
The contradiction is that you claim that saying something is true doesn't make it true, and then immediately assert that people who don't believe the Bible have never read it (which isn't necessarily true). More often that not, the opposite is true, as is the case with the professor giving the lecture in the OP:
"Ehrman became an Evangelical Christian as a teen. His desire to understand the original words of the Bible led him to the study of ancient languages and to textual criticism, to which he attributes the inspiration for an ongoing critical exploration of the basis of his own religious beliefs, which in turn gradually led to the questioning of his faith in the Bible as the inerrant, unchanging word of God."
Message edited by author 2008-07-28 14:00:29. |
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07/28/2008 01:59:01 PM · #98 |
You may be seeing exclamation points where there are none (or your screen is dirty).
I believe you were contradicting yourself over there when you asserted that people who "don't believe the bible" have never read it, immediately after making the statement that merely saying something doesn't make it true. It seems to me Shannon was simply pointing out the irony. I was happy to go looking for that quote, since you once again claimed in this new thread that "most" who don't believe have no knowledge of the bible, a blanket statement that had already been dealt with elsewhere. |
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07/28/2008 02:08:18 PM · #99 |
O.K., let me re-phrase what you perceive to be a contradiction:
"That is like "A WHOLE LOT" of people who don't believe the Bible. They've never read it, so don't understand it..."
Now Louis, surely you can't dispute that "A WHOLE LOT" of people that don't/won't believe have no knowledge.
And thanks for going to look up that stuff. I wouldn't have time. Glad somebody cares enough to keep us in line.
Oh, yeah, and sorry...the asterisks kinda had the effect of emphasizing the *contradiction alert*, something like an exclamation point might do. My mistake.
Message edited by author 2008-07-28 14:09:41.
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07/28/2008 02:16:06 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
"That is like "A WHOLE LOT" of people who don't believe the Bible. They've never read it, so don't understand it..."
Now Louis, surely you can't dispute that "A WHOLE LOT" of people that don't/won't believe have no knowledge. |
No more than you could dispute that a whole lot of people who claim to be devout Christians have no knowledge of the Bible. Lack of knowledge is most certainly NOT an issue with the speaker in this video (or Louis). Let's get back to the topic, shall we? |
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