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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Are you afraid of me?????
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 11/10/2003 11:33:59 AM · #1
When I joined this site, it was in hope to become a better photographer and also to enjoy viewing other's photos. However, I'm finding that the members of this site don't really offer much advice on improving photos. It seems to me that there is more patting on the back than actual criticism. My last challenge entry received some low scores, but out of over 100 votes, it received less than 10 comments, all of which were positive. Obviously, the scores didn't reflect the comments left.

It's very frustrating that I'm trying to learn what's wrong with my photo when I receive less than 10 percent comments, and those are only positive (more or less). Are those who score it low too chicken to leave a comment? I consider myself a reasonable person - I'm not going to attack someone for their opinion!

I know the photos can be submitted for a in depth critique, but that's from one person. I'm more interested in the 'general' public comments during a challenge. My current submission isn't doing too hot either, and it only has one comment out of 50 votes.

I'm posting this in the rant section because it really frustrates me. I'm certainly not afraid to leave negative comments, I just make sure to describe what I like about the image as well.

I'm asking that more people leave comments, especially if the score is low. How else is someone going to learn? Are you really that afraid to post your opinion???
 11/10/2003 11:43:01 AM · #2
Search the Forums for 'comments' Brian - you'll find that this an old and long-running story. People do comment less on the 'average' photos, and more at each end of the scale - mainly, I think, because it's easier to point out obvious technical defects, or to praise merits: to constructively criticise a shot that doesn't 'do' anything for you, although there are no obvious technical flaws, takes some thought, and therefore some time, and therefore more effort: people just don't do that so often. Myself included, I fear.

Ed
 11/10/2003 11:48:40 AM · #3
Well, my main gripe is that people aren't commenting on the 1s and 2s. I understand no comments on the 'OK' photos, but no comments on the low scores really burns me. Look at the top 20 images in each challenge. Find some with a few 1s or 2s. You'll see there are NO comments that reflect such a score. (or very, very few)

Here's an example: 6 1s and 2s - yet no comments reflecthing such.



Message edited by author 2003-11-10 11:57:34.
 11/10/2003 11:50:40 AM · #4
People who give 1s and 2s are always classed as 'Trolls' in the forums and a lot of people say nasty things about them. That doesn't really make me want to tell people that I gave them a 1 or a 2.
 11/10/2003 11:55:06 AM · #5
I've never been afraid to post my opinion, and back in the days when I had time to comment on every entry in a challenge I did post comments on my low scores as well as the entries I liked. I tried to find something positive to say if I could, but was honest about what I didn't like, without being rude.

These days I don't have the time nor inclination to comment on every entry, especially as there are often a few images that seem to be so far from my (personal) idea of even an average picture that I doubt I can be of help to the photographer - I think that comments can help a photographer understand more about how others see their image and perhaps help them to consider new techniques, crops or perspectives BUT that this can only work if there is a modicum of raw talent there in the first place- some vague idea of what makes an appealing image and what doesn't. I know this sounds very harsh but truly I do think that there are some apalling images entered into some of the challenges and I find it hard to believe the photographers honestly felt these were the best they could do/ think of.

To that end I now tend to comment images that I like - especially those I like but can also see ways to improve (in my opinion only, of course).

Sometimes I get PMs or emails from DPC friends asking me for comments on specific entries, and sometimes I'll ask/ offer in DPC Fanatics Chatroom to do a couple of comments if people want/ need one and these will often be on images I may not have commented otherwise.

If you have a particular image you'd like a comment on and think that my style of commenting could possibly be useful, please send me a PM with a link to the image and I'll leave a comment this week.

Kavey
 11/10/2003 11:59:15 AM · #6
Firstly - I haven't looked at your pictures, so this isn't particularly about your submissions.

That said, I give out a lot of 1s and 2s.

Now, these just reflect my personal opinion.

And, for those pictures I hand out a 1 or 2 for, my opinion is that the pictures are so lifeless, dull, technically badly taken and just generally insipid and boring that I regret spending the time that I did spend, looking at them.

In these cases, I don't know that my opinion would be of much value to the photographer, other than in a severely negative way. If they cannot see how bad their pictures are, in my eyes, I doubt telling them would actually have much constructive point or improve their imagemaking. Now perhaps other people love their pictures - such is the way of the world. But telling them in long, drawn out and detailed fashion exactly what I hate about something that they obviously feel was good enough to subject the rest of the world to viewing, isn't really a useful way to spend my time or theirs.
 11/10/2003 12:04:20 PM · #7
And to add to this thought, most of the learning to be had here is from viewing and critiquing other images. It's when you start looking in depth at other images that you begin to see where you need to work on your own photography. I was in the critique club for a while, and it really opened my eyes to what works and doesn't. I have then spent a lot of time working on techniques that I see in other images so as to improve my own.

-danny

Originally posted by Gordon:
Firstly - I haven't looked at your pictures, so this isn't particularly about your submissions.

That said, I give out a lot of 1s and 2s.

Now, these just reflect my personal opinion.

And, for those pictures I hand out a 1 or 2 for, my opinion is that the pictures are so lifeless, dull, technically badly taken and just generally insipid and boring that I regret spending the time that I did spend, looking at them.

In these cases, I don't know that my opinion would be of much value to the photographer, other than in a severely negative way. If they cannot see how bad their pictures are, in my eyes, I doubt telling them would actually have much constructive point or improve their imagemaking. Now perhaps other people love their pictures - such is the way of the world. But telling them in long, drawn out and detailed fashion exactly what I hate about something that they obviously feel was good enough to subject the rest of the world to viewing, isn't really a useful way to spend my time or theirs.

 11/10/2003 12:05:37 PM · #8
I haven't been here very long and often don't feel qualified to remark on some photos. I find it more difficult put into words the feeling I get from the photos at the extremes, good or bad. It's a waste of time to try to get inside the minds of the 1's & 2's. With such a large number of voters, there may be some who are offended by your subject, or just plain don't like your entry. These voters will never give a comment so don't worry about them. I just hope that my entries get more votes in the 8-10 range to balance it out, and am grateful for any comments I get. Maybe there are a lot of voters like me who just don't know enough yet to make intelligent comments. We are all here to learn.
 11/10/2003 12:07:59 PM · #9
Well, I didn't comment on your Science Entry because I gave it a 5 and with time contraints I'm trying to comment on the ones that are below 5. If I had commented I would have said:

Very nice shot overall, certainly fits the challenge. I love these things. What I would change or like to see is just the hands or even one hand on the globe and not the child attached to it. You can make him out and he's trying to be helpful but his expression is more one of, "Are we almost done?" than one of wonder and amazement at what is happening. The lighting is great and the focus is also well done.

And if I had time to go back I would have raised your score to a 7

As for the sports shot, that was before I joined, but here's my critique on it for what it's worth:

Very cool effect with the balls in motion. Having played a game or two of pool myself I understand how difficult it can be to capture that moment. The table in the background is very distracting, if you had a tighter crop on the shot or maybe a different angle, like from the shooter's point of view so you also didn't get the cue stick or just the tip of it and not the hands. I know the balls are all moving, hence the motion effect but the ones in the center, for some reason known only to me, seem they could be just a little sharper, not sure how you would capture that effect but it does seem a tiny bit distracting. The lighting is perfect on this shot. An 8

Deannda
Does that help? :)
 11/10/2003 12:10:16 PM · #10
There is no qualification for expressing what you feel works or doesn't work in an image. You don't have to get into the technical aspects of how to set the camera, just keep it simple and express your feelings on it. The more you do, the more you'll be able to appreciate what the photographer may have been going for with their setup and express to them how you feel it may or may not have worked for their shot.

-danny

Originally posted by coolhar:
I haven't been here very long and often don't feel qualified to remark on some photos. I find it more difficult put into words the feeling I get from the photos at the extremes, good or bad. It's a waste of time to try to get inside the minds of the 1's & 2's. With such a large number of voters, there may be some who are offended by your subject, or just plain don't like your entry. These voters will never give a comment so don't worry about them. I just hope that my entries get more votes in the 8-10 range to balance it out, and am grateful for any comments I get. Maybe there are a lot of voters like me who just don't know enough yet to make intelligent comments. We are all here to learn.

 11/10/2003 12:43:15 PM · #11
Give us a WOW photo and you will get a lot of comments ,until then keep practicing! :-)
 11/10/2003 01:47:00 PM · #12
Thanks for all of your comments, especially Deannda.
Pitsaman - I agree w/you and I myself don't consider any of my images 9s or 10s, so I understand where you're coming from.

Did you guys look at my example?

I just don't see how this is "obviously" a 1 or 2, unless you hate planets.
 11/10/2003 02:02:35 PM · #13
Originally posted by Ten13:
Thanks for all of your comments, especially Deannda.
Pitsaman - I agree w/you and I myself don't consider any of my images 9s or 10s, so I understand where you're coming from.

Did you guys look at my example?

I just don't see how this is "obviously" a 1 or 2, unless you hate planets.


From that example, I could guess that you got the 1s and 2s from people who didn't think you actually took a picture - i.e., you were too successful and they thought you cheated. yes they should have used the DQ button, but as we've seen in other threads, some people seem to think a message is a better approach. You have at least one comment implying that it wasn't a photo and that you didn't take it.
 11/10/2003 02:05:55 PM · #14
Originally posted by Konador:
People who give 1s and 2s are always classed as 'Trolls' in the forums and a lot of people say nasty things about them. That doesn't really make me want to tell people that I gave them a 1 or a 2.


Ben!!! You are a Troll!!!!!! =)


11/10/2003 03:11:36 PM · #15
Originally posted by pitsaman:
Give us a WOW photo and you will get a lot of comments ,until then keep practicing! :-)


i think this demonstrates the problem. the concern is that a WOW photo will never come unless constructive crit is offered to the less than WOW photos. how can one practice if one has no directions for improvement.

now, i am not suggesting that it is up to the more experienced and decorated members of this site to hold the hands of the rest of us. i know i have a long way to go and if i just keep participating and paying attention to what other people do then i'll slowly get better. but every time i get a constructive crit on one of my photos it accelerates the learning process for me and gives me something tangible to strive for rather than pursuing a continual process of trial and error. trial and error in digital photography is fun, but not always when its coupled with a generous dosage of 1's and 2's and no explanation as to why.

i think it should be set up so that you can't leave a 1 or a 2 without also leaving a comment - but then 3 would just become the new 1 and the average scores would just be collaterally and artifically boosted, so maybe not such a good idea.

my 2 cents (which i think should be the phrase everyone here do for the literalisms challenge!)
 11/10/2003 03:42:48 PM · #16
Hopefully DPC is just one facet of the learning process - there are a myriad of other educational avenues to explore: books, courses, instruction web sites abound.
 11/10/2003 04:41:59 PM · #17
Here are five very different images showing varying amounts of 1's and 2's. I can easily accomodate a number of perspectives and aesthetic preferences which are not my own, yet I cannot and, doubtfully, will ever figure out why anyone in his right mind would vote 1 or 2, given what is there.

It's a nuisance, a negligible one occasionally, often a huge one, for which there is no critical justification.

1. //www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=43420
2. //www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=41346
3. //www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=43008
4. //www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=44447
5. //www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=37530

11/10/2003 05:07:14 PM · #18
I also see really bad photos getting 9's and 10's and wonder who in their right mind could give a 9 or a 10 to that!!

You will end up going crazy trying to figure out the human mind.

Mike

11/10/2003 05:14:07 PM · #19
Originally posted by glimpses:
Originally posted by Konador:
People who give 1s and 2s are always classed as 'Trolls' in the forums and a lot of people say nasty things about them. That doesn't really make me want to tell people that I gave them a 1 or a 2.


Ben!!! You are a Troll!!!!!! =)

He may be a troll, but he's our troll ...
(with apologies to Randy Newman)
 11/10/2003 05:17:28 PM · #20
Originally posted by darcy:
Originally posted by pitsaman:
Give us a WOW photo and you will get a lot of comments ,until then keep practicing! :-)


i think this demonstrates the problem. the concern is that a WOW photo will never come unless constructive crit is offered to the less than WOW photos. how can one practice if one has no directions for improvement.

now, i am not suggesting that it is up to the more experienced and decorated members of this site to hold the hands of the rest of us. i know i have a long way to go and if i just keep participating and paying attention to what other people do then i'll slowly get better. but every time i get a constructive crit on one of my photos it accelerates the learning process for me and gives me something tangible to strive for rather than pursuing a continual process of trial and error. trial and error in digital photography is fun, but not always when its coupled with a generous dosage of 1's and 2's and no explanation as to why.

i think it should be set up so that you can't leave a 1 or a 2 without also leaving a comment - but then 3 would just become the new 1 and the average scores would just be collaterally and artifically boosted, so maybe not such a good idea.

my 2 cents (which i think should be the phrase everyone here do for the literalisms challenge!)


Well ,this reminds of my old country back 22 years ago!
We used to have a CORSO,a main street which ends in the park reserved for pedestrians where all the 15-25 crowd hangs out!
Guys used to sit or stand on the sides in small groups and girls in groups of 2-3 used to walk passing by!
Guys will comment on passing girls how cute they are but not all of them will get a comment ! some would get a lot of comments,wow sounds and even whistle!Some will go home unnoticed and maybe sad!
And some Will come to this thread and demand more comments.LOL!
 11/10/2003 05:19:51 PM · #21
Originally posted by chinstrap:
I also see really bad photos getting 9's and 10's and wonder who in their right mind could give a 9 or a 10 to that!!

You will end up going crazy trying to figure out the human mind.

Mike


True.
 11/10/2003 06:30:46 PM · #22
Originally posted by pitsaman:

Well ,this reminds of my old country back 22 years ago!
We used to have a CORSO,a main street which ends in the park reserved for pedestrians where all the 15-25 crowd hangs out!
Guys used to sit or stand on the sides in small groups and girls in groups of 2-3 used to walk passing by!
Guys will comment on passing girls how cute they are but not all of them will get a comment ! some would get a lot of comments,wow sounds and even whistle!Some will go home unnoticed and maybe sad!


And what country is that?? I am asking because it does remember my old country too (more or less at the same historical time.. and there was a Corso there too...).
What poetry pitsa! You should try to put that scene into photography!
 11/10/2003 07:53:04 PM · #23
Macedonia
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