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Showing posts 26 - 46 of 46, (reverse)
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 11/07/2003 11:00:03 AM · #26
Originally posted by muckpond:
And I should also say that that winner (whoever he was...i forget the name) WAS a newbie and WON A BLUE RIBBON on his very first challenge!!

I believe he is at least the third person to win with their very first entry.

If the photographer thought it made the photo enough BETTER to do the job, isn't it likely that enough voters perceived that increased quality to the tune of raising the photo from, say, 12th to 1st? The range of scores, even among the top 10%, is pretty narrow.

It's a good argument to show that very limited editing, intended to do something theoretically possible but impractical in life -- like asking the swans to hold still while you take a pool skimmer and remove the leaves -- CAN in fact make the difference between a pretty good and a great photo. All without obvious Photoshopping or filters or wacky collages.
 11/07/2003 11:01:56 AM · #27
I don't even know how to recognize "dust" in my images. But until I learn that, and learn how to edit it, I want to be able to compete against other images that have not been edited for dust. I've entered 9 challenges (counting 2 still in voting) and feel that I have learned an awful lot and that my images are improving, perhaps not as fast as others have improved, and certainly not as fast as I would like, but, IMHO, there is movement is the right direction. The challenge scores are one way of measuring progress, and can serve as an excellent positive reinforcement. This is a process that has been very good for me, and I am nowhere near the point where I feel I have no more to gain from it. I sincerely hope that the same process will be available to a beginning photographer who finds this site six months from now.

11/07/2003 11:18:54 AM · #28
Not at all surprising that three photographers have won on their first entry. There may be another waiting in the wings. An unknown newbie from the PGA tour could sleepwalk to first place in the club championship at my country club. Maybe he would get a lot of gratification, and personal reinforcement from the experience. But if he went straight to the bar and started complaining about cup placement or the height of the grass in the rough, the club wouldn't get as much benefit out of his visit as it would if he hung around for some clinics and give some critiques of member's swings.
 11/07/2003 11:21:27 AM · #29
coolhar,

what if we kept the beginner friendliness but also made it advanced-friendly?

then everyone could be happy.


11/07/2003 11:24:33 AM · #30
Originally posted by coolhar:
But if he went straight to the bar and started complaining about cup placement or the height of the grass in the rough, the club wouldn't get as much benefit out of his visit as it would if he hung around for some clinics and give some critiques of member's swings.


But what would be the point if the members all refused to use more than one club, saying it was more pure that way ?
 11/07/2003 11:46:40 AM · #31
I am in the middle of the road on this. So I guess I'd like to see challenges of both varieties.

I do think I am learning to think more about my photos and compose more in the frame by not being allowed to edit.

But I did want to take issue with one "restriction" that seems to be agreed upon, even when editing is allowed: People are saying I want to get rid of dust, or clone a leaf, but "no composites".

Actually, composites can be used to accomplish things we did in the darkroom before, and to make our digital cameras have more dynamic range than they would ordinarily. Not to mention to accomplish very nice panoramic landscapes (one of my favorites).

I always shoot bracketed now, and have started to use composites to increase dynamic range. Consider this recent fall photo:



I don't consider it to be a false image in any sense. It just used two exposures to increase dynamic range.

In other words, even on a "edited challenge", why should composites be excluded?

Message edited by author 2003-11-07 11:53:48.
 11/07/2003 12:15:01 PM · #32
I agree that composites can be used to increase DR in an image, but we need to take baby steps here. Lets start with giving us the ability to edit one photo how we would like and see where that goes. It's just that if we dive in too deep now, people will start using it as an excuse for pretty much anything.. not that i'd vote it anything more than a mediocre score (i'm talking about digital art here), we have to gradually get to where we want to eventually be..

Having more periodical challenges where editing is allowed (but not composites) would be a step in the right direction i think, and we can maybe learn from the results from these challenges and plan the next steps.

Sure it sounds like a restriction, but it would be the same as saying you can only use one negative to create your final print. you can dodge, burn, whatever.. but you can only use one source image. It's not perfect, but it's better than having no ability to correct the "small things" in a photograph.
 11/07/2003 03:47:33 PM · #33
I thought I'd just add that there's a huge reason why I want spot editing allowed in challenges.
Like most people here, I'm pretty busy and have to squeeze in time for my photography amongst my other responsibilities and interests.
Most of my photography and Photoshop work is for the purposes of entering DPC challenges.
Now, when it comes time to have my photos printed out professionaly, I have to go back and edit them all from scratch, as there are no rules anymore stating what I'm allowed to do and what I'm not allowed to do.
If the rules were relaxed here, I'd save myself an unbelievable amount of time, because any photos I would want as prints are already edited in the way I would want.
I wonder how many people here regularly have their photos printed by labs? Isn't it nice to encourage the unlimited use of Photoshop in order to get really great, natural looking prints from your photos?

Bob
 11/07/2003 04:04:19 PM · #34
Define a "composite" as "containing elements from more than one image."

If the only differences are tonal range/focus, then all the compositional elements are the same, and it should be OK. Verification would probably require submission of both original frames and the layered PS/PSP/etc. file used to merge them.

That's if we are going to allow "free editing" but not compositing. I'd like to avoid the whole issue (and spending my time comparing photos for "violations") by simply saying no editing restrictions.

If the person does a sloppy job cloning in an extra duck or removing a utility pole, you'll vote it accordingly. If they do it so well that you can't tell, and give it a good vote, then it's met the definition of "photorealistic and true to the spirit of the original."

If I take all the pictures myself during the challenge period, I should be able to produced the finished piece in any way I want. If you can see my editing, I expect to suffer lower votes. If it just looks like I finally took a really good photo, we should both be pleasantly surprised.

I don't actually plan on doing that -- it's way too much work to do it well enough, but I really don't want to spend hours each week deciding if others have "crossed the line."
 11/07/2003 04:06:09 PM · #35
What BobsterLobster said too!
 11/07/2003 04:19:19 PM · #36
Not that anyone asked me but.....


I'd like....

Every 4th challenge to have the spot editing restrictions lifted to include dodge/burn, cloning etc... With a clear instructions that the result should look natural and unedited. (points removed for an unnatural effect) and that the edits are only to produce a better photograph.


One every 4 to 6 months a Digital Art challenge where the voting is done on the image only, and not on how shopped out the pic looks. Allowing for use of all pix taken by the photographer at any time but only images by that photographer. With an outrageous challenge topics like "fantasy" "dreams" "Magic" etc...that could really be tailored to the "unreal" and encourage creative and constructive use of PS instead of the "oh boy now I get to play and use every filter I have" tendency we all have when the restrictions are lifted or "I'd really like to do soemthing diffrent but eventhough the restrictions are lifted I know I'll get lower scores if I put this cow's head on my husbands body"


If anyone is listening I think this would give everyone a chance to use and sharpen skills on all the tools digital photography allows. without taking the emphasis off straight photography that this site prides itself in. The digital darkroom and all the control it gives us is a huge part of why we all went digital to begin with.

In the end it's the image that strikes or sturs the audience. What's wrong with using all the tools every now and again to put on a great show?
 11/07/2003 04:24:51 PM · #37
Originally posted by joannadiva:

Every 4th challenge to have the spot editing restrictions lifted to include dodge/burn, cloning etc... With a clear instructions that the result should look natural and unedited. (points removed for an unnatural effect) and that the edits are only to produce a better photograph.


One every 4 to 6 months a Digital Art challenge [...]


I agree on the first part, i could live with that.. but on your second suggestion, i dont think this is the place for digital art. I cringe every time there's a "free edit" challenge here and people use this oppertunity not to make a great photograph, but to make some sort of weird composite digital art. Digital art has it's place, but if someone cant restrain themselves, they should go find themselves a digital art challenge website somewhere else.
 11/07/2003 04:35:56 PM · #38
What GeneralE and BobsterLobster said. So many people keep saying that people would take the free-editing too far and create digital art instead of photos but, through numerous forum discussions already on the subject, there has been many proposals on how to write and enforce the rules to prevent that from happening. It would free-editing with a purpose not just free-editing to do anything that you wanted. An example is the ability to remove unwanted and non-major elements in your photo but not the abilty to add anything. We could also randomly request original files as well as the top ten finishers to see if the rules are being followed. In addition the voters would score the badly edited photos lower. The ironic thing is that currently there are lots of photos that clearly fall under the category of digital art instead of pure photography. Maybe the "spirit of the rules" or "integrity of the image" should be redefined and enforced first before we consider changes to the current rules.

T
 11/07/2003 04:37:37 PM · #39
So if the rules were changed to allow "open editing" (to avoid Site Council burn-out, like GeneralIE mentioned in another thread, trying to determine if a particular photo went "too far" with editing), would it be acceptable to request a DQ if a photo looked like "digital art" instead of a picture? Or would the only reason for DQ be 1) a picture taken outside of the challenge dates and 2) a picture where the subject is comprised of different elements from multiple sources (therefore letting the voters decide if they like "digital art"?)
 11/07/2003 04:40:29 PM · #40
I think the only reasons for DQ should be

1. You didn't "take" the photo yourself

2. You took the photo(s) outside of the allowable challenge dates

For everything else we should let the results speak for themselves.
 11/07/2003 04:52:48 PM · #41
Earlier in the summer in a Popular Photography magazine in the Best Shot section there was a beautiful image of a patch of forest framed by these two trees. I was very impressed that the photographer found such a beautiful seen until I read the caption and discovered that one of the trees was actually a copy of the one tree and reversed and distorted a bit to look slightly different. The result was a beautiful image and I understand that is all that matters to some people but to me it was a beautiful creation of digital art and was not an image that preserved the integrity of the original image. This is one of the reasons why I am apposed to the adding of any elements.

T
 11/07/2003 05:09:22 PM · #42
I could argue that the photgrapher stood there and visualized that second tree framing the compositon, and that it's "true" to the photographers vision of the scene as seen (pretty clever, huh?).

Mostly, I don't want to deal with deciding how much is too much. What if he's only added a small branch and some leaves to suggest a tree but not actually interpose a "significant" element? And I don't see it as that different from removing a major visual element like a power pole, perhaps converting an urban scene into a pastorale. I think that would "violate the integrity" of the original just as much.
 11/07/2003 05:41:34 PM · #43
Originally posted by glimpses:
I would really love if this would happen because then I can express my photoshop skills on DPC!

 11/07/2003 05:59:58 PM · #44
Very funny. I'm sure the doctor bill would still be outrageous.

T
 11/07/2003 06:09:10 PM · #45
I'm sure there's far more manipulation occurring in accounting than in diagnostic imaging ... although many of the xrays are straight digital shots now, not scanned film.

Message edited by author 2003-11-08 11:58:58.
 11/08/2003 12:45:20 AM · #46
hey I am all for a NO-EDIT challenge, i like limited editing that DPC uses for the challenges.

I got first place in the Past Challenge

im not totally in agreement with some of the edits that many want to add to the allowable edits list. but I wont argue against them anymore.

James
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