| Author | Thread |
|
|
05/16/2008 11:41:43 AM · #101 |
| ...an embarassed silence ensues... |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 11:42:36 AM · #102 |
Originally posted by cmeier:
That said, I have to ask: has anyone been swayed, one way or the other, by the arguments put forth here? |
Raises hand. Whatever doubts I may have had years before have since been put to rest through investigation and discussion here, and for that I am grateful. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 11:56:16 AM · #103 |
actually, I'd have to raise my hand as well.
While I too "prayed for salvation" at a young age (maybe 7 or 8), I stopped blindly following my predecessors in the last few years. No claims of right OR wrong from me; I figure that IF i could have been wrong all these years, I probably STILL don't have it exactly right. ;) Maybe we aren't meant to figure it out until we die (or not at all).
Label me agnostic... but mostly for lack of a better term. The workings of our universe are far too great for me to comprehend, and I won't go around professing to know otherwise. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 12:56:50 PM · #104 |
No not swayed one way or the other.
I believe in what I believe in, I believe in God.I believe in Karma, I believe in Thoughts, I believe in Good and Evil, I believe in the Universe, I would like to believe in afterlife, I would like to believe we all get a second life, I know we turn to worm food, but in doing so we also support new life in the Universe.
So I believe in a lot of things, just because it is just not one thing, does not make me a bad person.
In fact I have a question which I will put in the next comment section.
edited cos i can not spell
Message edited by author 2008-05-16 12:57:48. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 01:02:49 PM · #105 |
So here is my question for all the die in cast Christians.
In my job, I deal with 35% family abductions,
65% are pedophile abductions.
I have seen the worst of the worst in humans. I have seen innocent children broken.
I have seen a dying man, shout out to God and say "Father forgive my sins"
Now according to this statement, because he acknowledged his sins, he is forgiven and going straight to Heaven.
So what is your take on this.
I.S. I should add, I am not trying to start anything, but for this is a serious question that I would particularly like an answer for.
|
|
|
|
05/16/2008 01:05:11 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by cmeier:
I must confess that I̢۪ve read many of the recent posts here about religion (or lack thereof) with a mixture of amusement, fascination, sadness and disbelief.
That said, I have to ask: has anyone been swayed, one way or the other, by the arguments put forth here? Have any atheists or agnostics prostrated themselves on the ground and begged Jesus to come into their lives? Have any Christians traded in their bibles for the collected works of Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris? I̢۪m genuinely curious.
Do any of you newly-enlightened want to give a shout out? Anyone? |
Almost all threads like these give me some new knowledge about what I am. Being raised in Canada, I wasn't surrounded by TV evangelists and these threads offer me an inside view of how fanatics of religion behave and think. I have been a non-believer since the age of 10, I have the scars to show for it and I don't mean physical ones. My dad was similar to STAN's but did not proselytize to his family, he used threats and fear and his humongous hands, but never hit me, all he had to do was raise one and I was off. I don't blame him for doing so, he was indoctrinated by uneducated people and suffered because of it. I was the only one to stand up for myself among a family of 7 children. All my family believes in their god and I am still viewed as an eccentric who will burn in hell.
I can't wait to get there actually, all the coolest people I have ever met are non-believers. ;\ |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 01:18:35 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by cmeier:
That said, I have to ask: has anyone been swayed, one way or the other, by the arguments put forth here? |
Raises hand. Whatever doubts I may have had years before have since been put to rest through investigation and discussion here, and for that I am grateful. |
I should have been more specific, I meant has anyone changed their fundamental belief structure as a result of the things they are reading on this website - today, this week, this month, as a result of these posts.
Obviously, a lot of what has been written here could help affirm or clarify one's pre-existing beliefs (or conversely help convince oneself that people on the other side of the fence are willfully obtuse or just plain crazy), but I was more curious about full-blown conversions to the opposite point of view.
|
|
|
|
05/16/2008 01:22:42 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by cmeier:
...I was more curious about full-blown conversions to the opposite point of view. |
...chirp... :P |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 01:45:12 PM · #109 |
hmmm, interesting.
I see no one is touching my question with an 80 foot barge pole. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 01:56:02 PM · #110 |
I don't think anyone here is looking to change anyone's personal convictions or trying to convert a person from one side to the other, not even STAN.
I know a pedophile, I wish I didn't, and I also know his victims and that POS has never apologized to any of them. He is a staunch believer in his god and his forgiveness. I think this is the reason he feels he doesn't need to apologize to his victims because he thinks he's going to heaven because he prayed for forgiveness and in his head received it.
How convenient is that? lol |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 02:00:03 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
So here is my question for all the die in cast Christians.
In my job, I deal with 35% family abductions,
65% are pedophile abductions.
I have seen the worst of the worst in humans. I have seen innocent children broken.
I have seen a dying man, shout out to God and say "Father forgive my sins"
Now according to this statement, because he acknowledged his sins, he is forgiven and going straight to Heaven.
So what is your take on this.
I.S. I should add, I am not trying to start anything, but for this is a serious question that I would particularly like an answer for. |
I'll touch it. Briefly ;)
There is at least one example of a similar situation in the Biblical account of the crucifixion. Two other men were crucified with Jesus and one acknowledged Jesus just before death. Here is what Jesus said. Was his a sincere plea to Jesus? Apparantly he was, based on Jesus' response. In the example you posted, ultimately, God will be the judge... I certainly would look at a 'deathbed' conversion with some skepticism but I think that is a normal human tendancy. I don't believe God places conditions on salvation.
Luke 23:39-43
[39] One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
[40] But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? [41] We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
[42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
eta: Still a wasted life with a trainwreck of damage strewn behind. To Jac-- The man in your example doesn't sound sincere to me at all--judging by his unwillingness to work for restitution. What if was sincerly sorry and working to heal, make right his offences? (I'll give you that it would be hard to do in the case of child abuse)
Message edited by author 2008-05-16 14:03:28. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 02:03:26 PM · #112 |
that was well thought out and put MP, thank you for having the guts to touch on a very iffy subject.
I have to say, I think that has to be one of the toughest questions anyone can put to someone with faith. It goes against human nature to forgive someone like this, but the faith is telling you that you have too.
To me, that is one of the hardest questions that anyone can talk about , answer, or put an opinion on. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 02:05:57 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by Jac:
How convenient is that? lol |
"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do."
-- Benjamin Franklin
"How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments."
-- Benjamin Franklin, US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790) |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 02:08:53 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by Jac:
I can't wait to get there actually, all the coolest people I have ever met are non-believers. ;\ |
It just occurred to me if all the atheists are wrong and the fundamentalists are right, then the atheists are going to suffer for eternity in hell. Hell is other people, and an eternity of people saying 'I told you so' is probably a sufficient punishment for most atheists. If all the godbothering is right, then all the people who'll be saying 'I told you so' the loudest and longest will be in heaven.
Ergo, all the atheists are going to heaven. Serves them right.
Message edited by author 2008-05-16 14:09:23. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 02:09:31 PM · #115 |
| Consider that most of us here(myself included) would be more likely to forgive a career thief but would find it much more difficult to forgive a pedophile. That is what trips us with the question of "How can I forgive this person, even if God says we should?" Again, humanly speaking and as it relates to the law of society, total different degrees of criminality. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 02:14:10 PM · #116 |
Precisely what I was saying MP,
It also brings up the point.
You are being made to forgive someone that you truly can not forgive, but you have to becuase it is written that you have to and if you do not, then you are at fault and a sinner.
And so, according to earlier posts, that makes you a sinner so you can not go anywhere but Hell when you die
Message edited by author 2008-05-16 14:15:30. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 02:49:48 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
You are being made to forgive someone that you truly can not forgive, but you have to becuase it is written that you have to and if you do not, then you are at fault and a sinner. |
Jesus was a radical dude. After all, this is the guy who said "turn the other cheek" and "the last shall be first." |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 02:52:57 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Precisely what I was saying MP,
It also brings up the point.
You are being made to forgive someone that you truly can not forgive, but you have to becuase it is written that you have to and if you do not, then you are at fault and a sinner.
And so, according to earlier posts, that makes you a sinner so you can not go anywhere but Hell when you die |
Juliet - may I humbly reply?
We are told to be forgiving as it is what He would do. However, none of us are anything BUT sinners. If we fail to forgive, we are only acting in character, along with the rest of the human race. When we DO somehow manage to forgive someone who has wronged us greatly, we are in touch with godly qualities that only He can truly provide to us through His spirit.
And about sinners going to Hell: we are all, every last one, sinners, mostly depraved by nature, capable of some limited "goodness" to some degree. Christians who try to convince you or me that they are not sinners don't know their own nature, or are selling something. The substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth, who was/is God's perfect, spotless man, takes the rebuke/punishment/banishment on behalf of the rest of us. The debt is paid. That is all. We're still sinners. We're to try to be like Him. Tough task, indeed.
There is restored fellowship with God in this life. There is instruction, according to scripture, to share this news with others. There are no instructions to pound anybody over the head with it, or to boast of it, or to disrespect those who do not accept. There is instruction to "contend" for the faith, i.e. explain, reason, and discuss with those who would.
Unfortunately many...way too many...of us get too zealous and proud and even just plain mean. Don't blame it on God. We have the treasure in earthen vessels, that the power might be of God, not of us.
I hope this helps.
|
|
|
|
05/16/2008 03:07:22 PM · #119 |
Now that is brilliant.,
Well thought out answers to a horrendously difficult question.
This is what I am talking about when someone can turn around to me and give me an answer like the ones I have recieved, that are not ramming something in my face or throat.
This is sensible, well thought out, incisive, answers.
There is no, this is the way it is so you will do it this way. There is thought put into these answers, careful consideration into the words, the weight of the question has been thought out and answered.
This type of consideration to myself makes me want to learn more. Where as the other radical approach makes me want to turn away.
So Thank you peoples |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 03:10:50 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
...we are all, every last one, sinners, mostly depraved by nature, capable of some limited "goodness" to some degree. Christians who try to convince you or me that they are not sinners don't know their own nature, or are selling something. |
Just to address the preceding: many feel that humanity is being sold a bill of goods by being told they are sinful, unworthy, barely capable of goodness, and, as you put it so succinctly, innately "depraved". That is a deeply offensive position, the starting point for all manner of horrors. I would suspect it is the chief reason and the catalyst for the rejection of the supernatural by freethinking people. I know that you are able to spin such rejection to fit your worldview -- indeed you must, in order for it to make any kind of sense at all -- but a rejection of the notion of the degraded nature of human beings is the first step in rejecting the whole unseemly ball of wax. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 03:15:12 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
However, none of us are anything BUT sinners. |
With ALL due respect, I wholeheartedly believe this is wrong.
I also would find it hard to believe that you can offer up any cogent, tangible proof of this.
What kind of existence is this to be condemned out of hand for the existence in and of itself?
The only way that makes sense is to punish us, and cast us in the roles of our predecessors.
I do NOT accept the blame for anything I did not do, and never will. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 03:15:28 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
We are told to be forgiving as it is what He would do. However, none of us are anything BUT sinners. |
Yes, that's what you have been told...
Warren Jeffs' followers are told that you must have three wives to get into heaven.
Muslims are told that pictures of their prophet are taboo.
Hindus are told that cows may not be slaughtered.
Jews are told that they must not eat pork.
Each group may hold such beliefs firmly, even violently, for no other reason than that's what they've been told by those around them... an arbitrary coincidence of birth.
Message edited by author 2008-05-16 15:32:36. |
|
|
|
05/16/2008 03:26:58 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
You are being made to forgive someone that you truly can not forgive, but you have to becuase it is written that you have to and if you do not, then you are at fault and a sinner. |
Jesus was a radical dude. After all, this is the guy who said "turn the other cheek" and "the last shall be first." |
Sorry, work called--wasn't trying to duck your question. ;) Those are interesting quotes that Don pulled. I think they illustrate well that Jesus was very radical--his teachings were overturning/challenging years of Mosaic Law that sought to regulate outward behavior with little attention to the inside. The established religious experts of that day were entrenched in power and teachings such as these challenged their very existence.
To your question above--I'm human, would I forgive a thief? Yes. Could I forgive a pedophile? I should. What if it was my family he injured? Ugggghhh. I don't know.
Here are the verses Don quoted: KJV version(lots of thee and thys ;))
5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Spell check not on so apologies in advance.
|
|
|
|
05/16/2008 03:32:49 PM · #124 |
Louis, Jeb,
Again...it's what it says, and what some of us believe. You are completley free to disagree. However, I put this to you: examine yourself, down deep, and see how much of your own motivations are selfish, hedonistic, proud, and how much of your "goodness" is really good at it's very root. "Depravity" is a matter of degrees, true, but to us, it's there in every person. You don't see it in yourself, good for you, your conscience is clear. If you do see some of your own shortcomings, you see what we're dealing with. That's all. No big thing.
Peace.
Message edited by author 2008-05-16 15:34:29.
|
|
|
|
05/16/2008 03:34:18 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
...we are all, every last one, sinners, mostly depraved by nature, capable of some limited "goodness" to some degree. Christians who try to convince you or me that they are not sinners don't know their own nature, or are selling something. |
Originally posted by Louis:
Just to address the preceding: many feel that humanity is being sold a bill of goods by being told they are sinful, unworthy, barely capable of goodness, and, as you put it so succinctly, innately "depraved". That is a deeply offensive position, the starting point for all manner of horrors. I would suspect it is the chief reason and the catalyst for the rejection of the supernatural by freethinking people. I know that you are able to spin such rejection to fit your worldview -- indeed you must, in order for it to make any kind of sense at all -- but a rejection of the notion of the degraded nature of human beings is the first step in rejecting the whole unseemly ball of wax. |
Exactly my sentiments, Louis......and I'd clarify the freethinking even moseso as SENSIBLE freethinking people.
Faith doesn't necessarily ask you to buy into something that makes very little, or no, sense.
Oh, and I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm not a sinner, I'm STATING that I am not a sinner by my mere existence......that takes work and intent.
You can believe me or not, just don't YOU tell me I'm a sinner because YOU believ some bill of goods YOU have been sold.
Oh......and IMNSHO, anyone who deosn't ask to be saved, isn't looking for your help anyway, so why bother? |
|
