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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> How does "sticking to the theme" affect your vote?
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 04/03/2008 11:46:20 PM · #1
I've just noticed that there's a fair amount of photos submitted that don't adhere to the themes of the challenges at all or adhere to it just arguably.

Having said that, there's also a fair amount of these kinds of photos that are simply beautiful.

In this case, how do you rate them? The photo is stunning, but it doesn't seem to meet the theme of the challenge... maybe just arguably.
 04/04/2008 02:10:15 AM · #2
Assuming you're referring to any challenge except DNMC or Free Studies, I think the challenge relevance is very important. I can see some people stretching it or what is referred to as "shoehorning" and it is a rare case that a shoehorned image gets a high vote from me, but everyone has their own ways of voting and weights challenge relevance differently. All I'd suggest is to first assume that the photographer was trying to meet the topic (without relying 100% on the title) and try to see the relevance you might have overlooked. Oh, and IMO, no matter what anyone else tells you, there is no "wrong" vote.

You can search the forums for similar topics because this has been discussed a lot and always ends the same.

04/04/2008 07:25:04 AM · #3
I concur.

This is a site on challenges.

Every week a challenge is presented to the membership.

If a member sees fit to submit an image that is strikingly awesome, but does not meet the challenge, well, that member risks their time and efforts by trying to shoehorn their way in to said challenge.

I wouldn't give out any low scores, probably, but would give out anything more than a 4, or 5 on the voting scale either.


04/04/2008 07:32:30 AM · #4
Originally posted by quiapz:
In this case, how do you rate them? The photo is stunning, but it doesn't seem to meet the theme of the challenge... maybe just arguably.


That's tricky - especially with the 'arguably' bit. Think hard about how it maybe does meet the challenge? Perspective is always an example of different understandings of a term, one being the physical/visual phenomenon of things getting smaller in the distance etc, while another is the figurative use of the term as 'point of view'. At the end of the day you, the voter, decide how to credit the picture. Takes all sorts. In the example you give/don't give with 'stunning', it looks like my resistance to high scores is under threat :)
 04/04/2008 07:32:31 AM · #5
AAAAAAAARGGH

Message edited by author 2008-04-04 07:35:57.
 04/04/2008 07:32:31 AM · #6
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Message edited by author 2008-04-04 07:35:27.
 04/04/2008 07:37:14 AM · #7
I look at it like this: If this were a job, and the assignment were "warm colors", what would your boss tell you if you turned in a cool colored image?

Thats how i vote, as if i'm the boss and 200 'employees' turned in an assignment to meet the challenge topic AND description. If a photo doesn't match the topic and description, i'm not afraid to throw out a 1-3 vote, no matter how beautiful it is.

Message edited by author 2008-04-04 07:38:45.
 04/04/2008 08:50:57 AM · #8
Originally posted by ZeppKash:
I look at it like this: If this were a job, and the assignment were "warm colors", what would your boss tell you if you turned in a cool colored image?

Thats how i vote, as if i'm the boss and 200 'employees' turned in an assignment to meet the challenge topic AND description. If a photo doesn't match the topic and description, i'm not afraid to throw out a 1-3 vote, no matter how beautiful it is.


however, photography is an art form. this is not just a commercial photography site, and the themes are a starting point. the participants run the gamut from commercial photographers to fine artists - and all responses within this remit are valid. the challenges are to work within, not follow slavishly. thinking 'outside the box' is a vital part of learning this art form. that said, outside the box thinking needs to be backed up by clear and well reasoned arguments for why it is valid - that's where the intellectual rigour needed comes in - not in just the creation, but also the 'intellectualisation' afterwards.
 04/04/2008 09:03:46 AM · #9
Originally posted by xianart:
Originally posted by ZeppKash:
I look at it like this: If this were a job, and the assignment were "warm colors", what would your boss tell you if you turned in a cool colored image?

Thats how i vote, as if i'm the boss and 200 'employees' turned in an assignment to meet the challenge topic AND description. If a photo doesn't match the topic and description, i'm not afraid to throw out a 1-3 vote, no matter how beautiful it is.


however, photography is an art form. this is not just a commercial photography site, and the themes are a starting point. the participants run the gamut from commercial photographers to fine artists - and all responses within this remit are valid. the challenges are to work within, not follow slavishly. thinking 'outside the box' is a vital part of learning this art form. that said, outside the box thinking needs to be backed up by clear and well reasoned arguments for why it is valid - that's where the intellectual rigour needed comes in - not in just the creation, but also the 'intellectualisation' afterwards.


And this is where i think there are two very distinctly different groups of people here on DPC. This is why so many shots end up in the 5.X range. One group loves the 'art' image, one group dislikes it, canceling each other out.
Two thoughts, that are my opinion, and maybe the opinion of others here: Most people that think their work is "art" are full of themselves. "outside the box" in most cases, means outside the challenge topic or description.
 04/04/2008 09:14:19 AM · #10
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
All I'd suggest is to first assume that the photographer was trying to meet the topic (without relying 100% on the title) and try to see the relevance you might have overlooked.


For me if the photo doesn't meet the theme then it's a 1-5 depending on quality - 5 for something that just blows me away. I do try to see if it meets the challenge in any way to help it along, but the more it is shoe-horned the lower the score.

FWIW, I also factor in obvious levels of effort. If someone takes a quick, blurry photo of their dog, showing no effort at all and pretty much wasting my time, I'll score them low.
 04/04/2008 09:17:59 AM · #11
There are countless websites around for showing off your images, any quality and style, including 100% digital art.

I really appreciate that DPC is different and challenges us with topics, therefore that topic is VERY important.

In a challenge called "architecture", even a very mediocre image of a house should score higher than a brilliant shot of a tiger (or anything else that doesn't fit the topic).

Yes, I know about the grey areas, and I do try to see it from all sorts of angles, but there IS a limit to how far I'll bend and twist just to catch a hint of topic adherence.
 04/04/2008 09:22:24 AM · #12
Originally posted by ZeppKash:
And this is where i think there are two very distinctly different groups of people here on DPC. This is why so many shots end up in the 5.X range. One group loves the 'art' image, one group dislikes it, canceling each other out.


Which is why it is important to learn how to interpret the performance of your image, and especially the comments it receives. You can (eventually) learn to gauge if your entry was really mediocre, or if it was good and just did not appeal to a broad range of people.

On the original question, I rate the photo first on it's own merits, then If I honestly feel it was off topic or shoehorned in with a clever title, I will take off 1-3 points depending on how far off topic I thought it was. I think that's fair. If I am dense and just did not see the obvious relevance, then my vote will have very little bearing on the final outcome. If a lot of others feel the same way, then the groups voice has spoken, and the entry will come in way lower.

Sometimes the challenge description results in this. Right now A lot of entries in "warm colors" are getting slammed with low votes because of the way some voters interpret warm colors. The colors in my own entry are most definitely at the warm end of the spectrum, but some voters are looking for a conveyance of warmth, or colors that are more intense. (I wonder if anyone has entered a blue flame? That would probably get DNMC'd in both the warm and cool colors challenges) It is important to read the challenge description. There were a lot of DNMC entries in the Beauty in the Everyday challenge because a lot of people met the "everyday" title, but did not read the description of "Wabi-Sabi"

Message edited by author 2008-04-04 09:27:24.
 04/04/2008 11:24:49 AM · #13
Originally posted by ZeppKash:
... Thats how i vote, as if i'm the boss and 200 'employees' turned in an assignment to meet the challenge topic AND description. ...

Right. If I were a magazine editor and was looking for a photo to accompany an article on (challenge theme), could I use this photo? How about if the magazine was avant garde?
Or if I showed this photo to creative people and gave them 25 tries to guess the challenge theme based on just the photo, could they guess it?
Of course, I don't always ask these questions. And I try to stay flexible. :-)
 04/04/2008 12:53:13 PM · #14
Let me put it this way: If, as a photographer, you were hired to make a family portrait for a family, and you presented them with an excellent, outstanding photo of their garden, how do you think they would feel? I think it is good training for us to stick to the challenge (i.e meet the demand/request of the customer).
 04/05/2008 08:58:08 AM · #15
Good points all along the thread. Now a look at the rules, as usual in threads on this topic. In the "voting rules" (menu/challeng/challenge rules/voting rules), two points in the "you should" group of instructions pertain to this topic:

* keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic.
* consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly.

Taking the second point first, I try to look at a picture as if I were evaluating a monthly free study entry, come up with an approximate score, then adjust that score in the context of the challenge topic. Of course, both the starting point and the "adjustemnt" are subjective. Fitting the topic with a subtle, unusual, funny, or original (to me) interpretation may adjust the final score upward (sometimes by a lot, sometimes by one point). Fitting by hitting me over the head with an obvious or clumsy approach might have no effect at all. I find adding points easier than taking away points. I try to keep an open mind, but I'm not always clever enough to "get" all possible interpretations. However, when I do deduct points, I feel comfortable that doing so is within the rules.

The entire voting scale is loose ("bad" to "good", not "horrible" to "excellent"), which appears to allow a very wide range of subjectivity. Challenge topic is an aspect to be considered rather than the only valid evaluation scale, but challenge topic should not be ignored either (per voting rules).


Message edited by author 2008-04-05 09:02:16.
 04/05/2008 10:24:24 AM · #16
Originally posted by dfstevenson:
Let me put it this way: If, as a photographer, you were hired to make a family portrait for a family, and you presented them with an excellent, outstanding photo of their garden, how do you think they would feel?


Are you trying to tell them to get outside more ?

Some people hire Sally Mann to take their family portraits.
 04/05/2008 04:38:18 PM · #17
Originally posted by Gordon:
Some people hire Sally Mann to take their family portraits.


I would! mind you, i guess i channel sally mann in my own family's photos. maybe that's why the rellies never ask for copies...
 04/05/2008 06:08:41 PM · #18
Originally posted by dfstevenson:
Let me put it this way: If, as a photographer, you were hired to make a family portrait for a family, and you presented them with an excellent, outstanding photo of their garden, how do you think they would feel? I think it is good training for us to stick to the challenge (i.e meet the demand/request of the customer).


It's a photo contest not a training class. If you want to use it as the latter that's fine but in the end it's a contest, it says so right at the top of every page on this site.

In the real world you can do one of two things. Either give the client exactly what they described and not deviate from it or give them something different. If you sell the idea there's a very good chance you'll get the contract over others competiting for it. After all there's a reason why the client is the client and not the one doing the creatives. Perhaps that something to learn as well?
 04/05/2008 06:47:22 PM · #19
I like citymars' idea of taking 25 photos in a challenge and asking people to guess the theme; a different challenge altogether - maybe we should set up a "shadow" dpc site to do just this... Aargh, maybe this is it. I must not post to this machine to this machine this machine machine.
 04/05/2008 08:15:06 PM · #20
How many times in all these forums have people said that they want to learn here or that they have learned a lot here? I would venture to say that most of us here are here to learn new techniques, no matter what our experience level is. For example, check here on the forums and also other sites like RetouchPro all the3 people trying to learn and emulate the style of Dave Hill.
 04/05/2008 08:23:22 PM · #21
the forums and the challenges are pretty much two different parts of this site.

the forums can be used for learning and chatting. the challenges are aimed at photographic competetion.

same site - a few different uses.


04/05/2008 09:53:53 PM · #22
Originally posted by ZeppKash:
And this is where i think there are two very distinctly different groups of people here on DPC. This is why so many shots end up in the 5.X range. One group loves the 'art' image, one group dislikes it, canceling each other out.


I don't think the statistics support this hypothesis. Have you ever noticed how normal the distribution of votes is on the average 5.X shot? There is almost always a central point between 5 and 6 with the other scores tailing off quickly from the central point. The histogram in the image below represents a typical shot. If there were two opposing groups the distribution would look more like the second image with two peaks (the low voters vs. the high voters)


I̢۪m the first to agree that there is a norm for a successful DPC shot and that certain styles have less of a chance of acceptance by the masses. But the stats don̢۪t support the polarity that you suggest. A typical 5.X shot is at 5.X because most of the votes are centered around 5.X.
04/06/2008 12:34:18 AM · #23
Originally posted by tnun:
I like citymars' idea of taking 25 photos in a challenge and asking people to guess the theme;

Well, thanks for the shout-out, though that's not really what I said. :-p

04/06/2008 12:45:37 AM · #24
I know, but I still like it.
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